Talk:Breaking Benjamin

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This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Breaking Benjamin article.
Article policies
Maintained The following user(s) are actively involved with this article and may be able to help with questions about verification and sources:
RaikiriChidori (talk · contribs)
This in no way implies article ownership; all editors are encouraged to contribute.
Breaking Benjamin was a good article nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There are suggestions below for improving the article. Once these are addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.

Reviewed version: December 6, 2007
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[edit] Phobia album

There's info about the tour, but none about the creative process, release dates nor album charts. HitokiriGaijin (talk) 20:07, 28 March 2008(UTC)

[edit] Medicate Source

We need a source telling that Medicate charted at #28 on the BB Mainstream Rock Chart and at #40 on the Modern Rock Chart. I can clearly find that it was a single, but I can't find anywhere that says it ever charted on either chart. This article has the song peaking at the slots mentioned above, but I can't find that info anywhere else. Even the Saturate page has it listed that Medicate didn't chart. We need to fix this on one of these pages. Billboard has no record of Medicate charting but it has the records of all 8 of Breaking Benjamin's other singles.

[edit] I NEED HELP!!!

I need to get some pictures and at least one music sample up! This article seems boring! Any help would be appreciated. :) —Preceding unsigned comment added by RaikiriChidori (talk • contribs) 18:00, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Citation needed for Atlanta Riot

I can't find any citations for the riot at the Tabernacle in Atlanta. If you could help by finding a citation and report it to me, that would be great. Does anyone even go to the discussion pages anymore?RaikiriChidori (talk) 22:07, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Refreshed

This page a little bit. I'm still working on references and citations for all this information though. What do you think? RaikiriChidori 23:50, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Update

First off, I archived all previous discussions as an attempt to clean up the talk page. Secondly, this page is in need of a serious rewrite. There are no cohesive paragraphs after the history; everything is in jumbled sentences. I'll try to fix some up but I don't have a lot of time to do such things. Imasleepviking ( talk ) 17:07, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I agree. I'll go ahead and work on some biographical info to put in. If you need further assistance, let me know ;)RaikiriChidori (talk) 04:51, 30 November 2007 (UTC)


Sillies, Breaking Benjamin didn't tour with Puddle of Mudd. It was Seether. (I was there.) >_> —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.207.228.28 (talk) 11:50, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Yeah they did, but the tour was cut short. Also, Three Days Grace and Red were on the bill. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.167.159.15 (talk) 00:59, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] GA

Sorry, but i do not believe this article currently satisfies the Good Article criteria.

  • First of the lead is way too small and should contain at least two paragraphs, it should either mention the line-up, any number 1's, check other music GA's for further clarification.
  • .'[2]In 1999 - You need a space after the reference, and the single quote should be inside the full-stop
  • after various line-up changes, why not tell the reader these changes
  • "Phobia." - the album should be in italics, songs go in quotes
  • The layout is confusing - you first have the "history" of the band, then style, then members then back to history. WHy not put style and members after the history so it's in order
  • The image in the infobox fails the fair use criteria because the band is alive and a freely licensed picture can be taken at a concert and can be uploaded.
  • hey achieved their first number 1 single in 2007 - number 1 where? what chart?
  • Breaking Benjamin fits perfectly into the post-grunge scene with thick metal guitar riffs and mixes of clean, melodic vocals and screams, growls & shrills accompanied by dark lyrics. - fits perfectly? whose opinion is this? "&" should be changed to "and"
  • Benjamin Burnley - Vocals, Rhythm Guitar, String Arrangements - instruments should be lowercase
  • number 2 on the Billboard Top Heatseekers Chart and at 136 on the Billboard Top 200. - reference all chart positions and sales figures
  • Saturate has gone on to sell over 300,000 copies making it a moderate success - please define "moderate success" some bands would kill for those sales figures
  • The album featured the lead off single "So Cold" - writing error
  • Also released as singles from the album were - don't start a sentence with also
  • In addition The song was played during an episode of the TV show "8 Simple Rules." error with italics here, TV show shouldn't be in quotes (goes for all TV shows) and whenever you use quotes they need to go before the full-stop
  • We Are Not Alone - don't know why this is bolded
  • September 1, 2007, full dates should be linked like this September 1, 2007

These are just a few things. The article contains too many trivial items like "song" was featured on X, too many one sentence paragraphs making bad writing, not enough references for things like chart positions and sales figures etc. Don't feel bad about it being failed, when i nominated my first Good Article it was in really bad condition, once you learn how things should be organized/formatted it gets a lot easier. M3tal H3ad (talk) 09:32, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Breaking Benjamin Shadows.jpg

Image:Breaking Benjamin Shadows.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 18:47, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Breaking Benjamin Tour.jpg

Image:Breaking Benjamin Tour.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 18:48, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:BreakingBenjamin-TheDiaryOfJane.ogg

Image:BreakingBenjamin-TheDiaryOfJane.ogg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 18:49, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Logo

IllaZilla removed the logo, alleging that WP:N applies. WP:N says explicitly:

Notability guidelines give guidance on whether a topic is notable enough to be included in Wikipedia as a separate article, but do not specifically regulate the content of articles (with the exception of lists of people

Also cited was WP:NONFREE. I challenge IllaZila (and now Rehevkor who has vouched for IllaZilla's edit) to justify, with explicit and clear references to policy, what the problem is, and explain precisely and explicity why those same policies do not apply to the vast majority of other logos. Removal without clear justification may be considered disruption, a blockable offense. Gimmetrow 00:09, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

The logo was legitimately removed by User:IllaZilla, and not every edit needs to be discussed in the talk page, the policy he cited in the edit summary is clear enough.

There is no discussion of the logo's significance or references as to its notability. it adds no meaningful content to the article and therefore fails WP:N and WP:NONFREE

Basically he's saying there's no critical commentary (or why it's notable) on the logo itself so it's not covered under the fair use policy. Rehevkor (talk) 00:09, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

But as I state above, WP:N doesn't apply, and there is even commentary, so yes this does need specific and clear discussion to justify removal. Gimmetrow 00:12, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

I guess we'll have to wait for User:IllaZilla to have his say eah? Although, I find accusations of disruption and threats of blocking incredibly offensive for good faith edits. Please try and be a little more civil? Rehevkor (talk) 01:15, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
I've been having it out with Gimmetrow over logo use in band articles for a while now. My same rationales still apply in this case. WP:LOGOS states: "Avoid using a logo in any way that creates an impression that the purpose of its inclusion is to promote something. Generally, logos should be used only when the logo is reasonably familiar (or when the logo itself is of interest for design or artistic reasons)." If the Breaking Benjamin logo is of interest for design or artistic reasons, then those reasons should be discussed in the article using referenced commentary, ie. in a section about the band's visual or artistic style. If no such commentary is present (as was the case in this article), it creates the impression that the logo's use is promotional (or decorative, which is essentially the same thing). Note that it is at best unclear to what degree the provisions of WP:LOGOS applies to the logos of musical acts, as WP:NONFREE (a policy of which WP:LOGOS is a subset of guidelines) only specifies that "Team and corporate (emphasis added) logos [may be used] for identification." Meaning, team and corporate logos can be used simply for identification; no supporting text is necessary. Band logos, on the other hand, require more substantial referenced commentary in order for their notability to be established. In my honest opinion, the way that the Breaking Benjamin logo was being used in this article gave the impression that it was only there to promote the band, or to serve as decoration. My basis for this impression was that there is no commentary anywhere else in the article discussing the band's visual or artistic style. The Breaking Benjamin logo, therefore, does not appear to be be notable or iconic in any way. And even if it were iconic, WP:NONFREE only allows "Images with iconic status or historical importance [to be used] as subjects of commentary." The image's caption only read: "The Breaking Benjamin logo, which is a variation of the Celtic knot." This unreferenced statement didn't constitute critical commentary and didn't establish the notability or historical importance of the image. Much more meaningful, referenced commentary would be necessary. And in the absence of such commentary, we must err on the side of exclusion per WP:FAIR and WP:NONFREE. --IllaZilla (talk) 10:32, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
Let's start with the basics then. WP:N doesn't apply, so that part is done. WP:LOGOS and WP:NONFREE are guidelines, not policy; the policy is WP:FUC. There is nothing obviously in WP:FUC which says one type of organisation logo needs "more substantial referenced commentary" than another, and surely you are aware of the disputes over exactly what "critical commentary" even means in the guidelines. Gimmetrow 11:46, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
I totally disagree with you that WP:N doesn't apply. WP:FUC, if you want to quote policy, says: "Content. Non-free content meets general Wikipedia content requirements and is encyclopedic." WP:N is one of Wikipedia's basic content requirements and establishes whether or not the thing in question is encyclopedic. How can you claim that a band logo is encyclopedic if you make no attempt to establish its notability? Show, don't tell, remember. It also says: "Significance. Non-free content is used only if its presence would significantly increase readers' understanding of the topic, and its omission would be detrimental to that understanding." I fail to see how having the Breaking Benjamin logo in the article, in the manner it was included before, would significantly increase a reader's understanding of what/who Breaking Benjamin is. Its omission certainly isn't detrimental to that understanding. --IllaZilla (talk) 18:18, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
Please see the other talk page. You're wrong about WP:N, which applies to topics, not content. But if this is your argument, then kindly explain how having the British Airways logo in the infobox without commentary "significantly increase[s] a reader's understanding of what" British Airways is, and why "its omission would be detrimental to that understanding." Gimmetrow 21:58, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
The BA logo is a representation of the company. It's impossible to have a free image as representation when the only image available is a logo. In the case of Breaking Benjamin you can quite easily take a free photo of them at a gig or some such. You have to remember that non free images have to be kept to a minimum, only used when absolutely necessary, or is needed to illustrate the subject when there's no free alternative etc, not put in there for the sake of it, as was the case with this logo. I know this probably won't address your concerns, just adding my 2p, but I'm sure IllaZilla will give you a full response. Rehevkor (talk) 22:14, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
That's all well and good, but it doesn't answer the question: How exactly does merely showing the BA logo increase my understanding of British Airways? The basic answer is: it tells me about the logo in a way mere text would not, and the logo is one aspect of the organisation that should be present in a complete article on British Airways. The same applies to bands. We wouldn't omit mentioning alternate names for a band simply because one of the names is sufficient for representation. Likewise, we shouldn't omit presenting a logo, simply because the band can be represented some other way. If Breaking Benjamin represents itself though a logo, that is a significant aspect of the band. In many instances the logo is a more essential means of representation than a picture of a gig. Gimmetrow 22:48, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
IMO the comparison isn't really valid. We clearly disagree on whether or to what degree band logos are covered by policies/guidelines like WP:FUC, WP:NONFREE, and WP:LOGOS. However, corporate logos seem to be unquestionably covered. WP:NONFREE explicitly states that team and corporate logos may be used for identification (ie. no critical commentary necessary, similar to album covers), because logos are the primary means by which companies identify themselves and companies, as noncorporeal entities, are impossible to photograph. Therefore the necessity of displaying a logo in an article about a company is self-explanatory, as there is no other reasonable way to identify the company. I'm not saying that there is no way that the Breaking Benjamin logo can be included in the article. If it is indeed an "essential means of representation" that they use, then that merits some kind of commentary. But it can't just be stuck in the article without any referenced commentary, because unlike a company a logo is not the primary means of identification for a band, therefore its use is not self-explanatory. A band is corporeal; it's a group of people. And those people can be photographed and, together with the name of the group, this provides identification (and in the best possible way for WP: free). There may well be a place to use the logo, in a section discussing the band's artistic or visual style or something like that. I would have no objection to the logo being used as such, because it would clearly be importan to to such a discussion. But there's nothing in this article that discusses the band's artwork, visual style, or anything of the sort. As I've said before, in the absence of any supporting commentary we must err on the side of exclusion per Wikipedia's fair use and non-free content criteria. --IllaZilla (talk) 23:11, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
Quoting you: "Therefore the necessity of displaying a logo in an article about a company is self-explanatory, as there is no other reasonable way to identify the company." You are arguing that bands do not need to be "identified" by a logo. That begs the question: why do we "need" to identify a company by a logo, when the name of the company is more than sufficient. Likewise, a sports team "is corporeal; it's a group of people. And those people can be photographed and, together with the name of the group, this provides identification.... In the absence of any supporting commentary we must err on the side of exclusion per Wikipedia's fair use and non-free content criteria." Gimmetrow 23:22, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
Maybe worth mentioning WP:NFCC if it's not come up already. It's a policy rather than a guide line and the BB logo fails a significant chunk of it. Anyhoo, BA is a corporate entity (something BB isn't) which can only be identified by their logo. The public associates the company by their logo, usually by default. This this the case for BB? Can you find any reliable 3rd party sources for the significance of the logo? If you can, please do so. It's a higher priority to remove "illegal" material than to make it legal. Rehevkor (talk) 23:37, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
If the NFCC *guideline* is interpreted such that the BB logo fails a significant chunk of it, then so does the BA logo. Can you find reliable 3rd party sources for the significance of the BA logo? (That should be easy, right, it's a big company...) And the "corporate entity" argument doesn't seem work for sports teams. Gimmetrow 23:57, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
NFCC is "an official policy" according to that box at the top of the page. Ironically, the "corporate entity" argument doesn't work for bands either, a lot less than it does to sports teams, which are, ironically, essentially "corporate entities". Rehevkor (talk) 00:45, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
Oh bloody confusing acronyms. WP:FUC is the policy and its the same as WP:NFCC. But there's also the WP:NFC guideline, same as WP:NONFREE. Illa routinely refers to things from Wikipedia:NFC#Images, which is only in the guideline. In any event, there is nothing in WP:FUC about corporate entities. Gimmetrow 00:59, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
It's not meant to. You have to judge each image individually. For example; to quote the BA logo rational (even though it's pretty clear to me comparisons of a company and band logo in this respect it totally irrelevant) "This image enhances the article in which it's displayed, as it provides an immediate relevance to the reader more capably than the textual description alone." The BA logo clearly shows it represents BA, anyone reading the article will instantly know the relevance to the company and the article, it increases the quality of the article. It's clear this is not the case in the BB logo. Unless you want to want to dispute Wikipedia's content policy or guidelines or whatever (which here, I might add, is not the place to do it), arguing semantics and making irrelevant comparisons is not going to get anywhere. I invite you put your efforts into improving the article (or indeed the BA article) instead. Rehevkor (talk) 01:30, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
Tell that to Illa - Illa's the content destroyer here. "anyone reading the article will instantly know the relevance to the company and the article, it increases the quality of the article." That applies to band logos too. Gimmetrow 01:35, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
Would it apply to people unfamiliar with the band? It's just a symbol. Rehevkor (talk) 01:37, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
Would it apply to people unfamiliar with BA? or British Midland or XL Airways or OpenSkies? It's just a symbol. (And I see that someone tagged a problem image on BA.) Gimmetrow 02:03, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
The Ba logo has "British Airways" written on it. So clear to anyone that can read. Rehevkor (talk) 02:38, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
So the left half of Image:Breaking Benjamin Banner.png would be fine? Gimmetrow 02:52, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
My concern with the banner image is: the description page states that User:RaikiriChidori created it and is the copyright holder, and is releasing it for use on WP. But one look at it tells you it's pretty clearly a composite image made of several possibly copyrighted originals: the celtic knot logo, the text of the band's name (from an album cover maybe?), and a promotional photo of the band. I notice that Rehevkor has left a message on RaikiriChidori's talk page to try to find out where he/she obtained the images used to create the banner, and whether he/she actually has the rights to declare it under the GNU license. A glance at RaikiriChidori's talk page shows that he or she has a lot of problems with copyright status of uploaded images, including the BB banner. Anyway, my take on it is that unless the words "Breaking Benjamin" are part of the logo, then no it's not the same thing as the BA logo. Splicing 2 copyrighted images together to make your own logo image is really just fancruft, in my opinion. --IllaZilla (talk) 03:17, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
Of course not. That appears to be some kind of mock up (with a very dubious license), the text is not part of the logo (and it's unlikely to make a difference if it was, see above). You really are going the wrong direction for this. We have invited you to prove why the logo is wroth of inclusion but so far all you have done is claimed some irrelevant comparisons and disputed the policies themselves. It doesn't matter what other pages have done, if you don't like that they have done you are free to dispute them, the fact of the matter is that the logo on this article fails countless guidelines and policies and all you have done is argued as to why rather than putting your efforts into addressing the issues, I implore you to do so because at the moment we're just going in circles. Good night! Rehevkor (talk) 03:36, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
Yes, the banner has other problems not relevant to my question. Hypothetically, if the BB symbol were identified with the words "Breaking Benjamin logo", would "anyone reading the article will instantly know the relevance to the company and the article, it increases the quality of the article"? Hypothetically, would this be true of the BA logo if the company did not combine its name and symbol in that formation? Does the location of the logo in the infobox convey any information? Gimmetrow 03:36, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
I'm sick of repeating myself here so I'm going to make one last point: WP:LOGO states that "In the case of any dispute, the burden of proof is on the person who wishes to include the logo.", so far all you have done is dispute the policies themselves rather than address them, if you can't do that your arguments are fundamentally flawed. Rehevkor (talk) 03:54, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
And I'm sick of repeating myself here that Illa has not demonstrated any policy requiring the removal of the logo from this article. All alleged policy-based arguments that Illa has made would result in the removal of essentially every logo from wikipedia. I am NOT disputing the policies, but Illa's absurd application of them. Gimmetrow 04:04, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

It has now been 10 days since you have abandoned discussion and failed to make your case. I will be restoring the image now. Gimmetrow 21:24, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] We Have Fucking Pics Of Ben, Mark, Aaron, and Chad but we dont have a fair use image of the whole band

WHY IS THAT THE CASE!! BLUEballsBOY (talk) 18:17, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Because no one has taken a good fair-use image of the whole band? Imasleepviking ( talk ) 20:30, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Pictures

Would pictures not be a good addition to the page? Maybe pictures of the band as a whole or album covers or at least a logo, so that onlookers can have some idea of what Breaking Benjamin is. I mean, I personally don't have any fair use images that could be used but if anyone did that would be a great addition. MoneyBullet 01:34, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

I'd say it's a bad idea just because it'd be hard to get a fair use gallery of images for the logo and album covers and the like.Imasleepviking ( talk ) 03:00, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] New album release date

Will someone please name a source for the release date of future untitled album on September 30th, 2008. I saw that it was posted, removed, and reposted, but I have not seen a source for this.

71.82.127.171 (talk) 23:29, 22 May 2008 (UTC)