Talk:Brazil at the 2006 FIFA World Cup

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[edit] Why?

Why is there an extra article about Brazil at the World Cup? I think it's all mentioned in the main articles about the qualification and stuff. I don't think we need an extra article about Brazil (but I have to say that it looks great). 80.228.166.86 12:26, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Suggestions

I have two suggestions:

  1. Add the full name of the countries in the table of results;
  2. Add the final standings of the qualifying round.

If no one disagrees, I can add myself what I suggested.

Regards, Carioca 20:47, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Sounds good. We should give it a try, see how it works. Redux 21:12, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
Hi. See if you liked. Carioca 22:34, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
Looks great. About the Qualifying results table though, I was thinking that maybe we only need to have the opponent's name on it — it would be implied that any given country was playing against Brazil. I'm not completely sure as to how it would work visually and in terms of organization (for one thing, we'd need to standardize the score column, with a standard format Brazil x Opponent or vice-versa, so that a 3:1 would mean that Brazil defeated [opponent] by 3 goals to one, or that Brazil lost by that score, depending on the format). Redux 23:03, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
Hi. What do you think of the table below:
Results
Date Place Opponent Score
September 7, 2003 Barranquilla Colombia 2:1
September 10, 2003 Manaus Ecuador 1:0

Regards, Carioca 23:19, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Excellent. Just, instead of "Place", the column should be named "Venue", just a minor thing. Redux 13:24, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
OK. I will fix that. Carioca 20:24, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
It's looking great. And nice touch adding the stadia; that had not occurred me. Redux 23:28, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Previous Matches against Australia, Croatia and Japan

I think we could add tables showing all previous results against our group stage opponents. What do you all think about this idea? PMLF 02:00, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
Originally, I had thought of adding the history of all matches played in preparation for this World Cup (regardless of the opponent). This new idea has a potential problem: overextending the article without a real necessity. I suppose Brazil has not played that many matches against those three countries, but still there could be some matches played a long time ago, involving completely different players, even with some different rules (before the changes made by FIFA somewhat recently). And later, as (one would assume) the country progresses in the competition, something similar would need to be done with the new opponents, as a matter of consistency. And if Brazil happens to face a "traditional" opponent such as Argentina... 200 passed matches. I believe we should stick to the idea of listing matches that were played as preparation for this World Cup, which would include at least one match against Croatia, if memory serves me well. Regards, Redux 13:50, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
What about adding only statistics related to previous meetings against those teams (and any future opponent(s))? EG: games played, victories, ties, defeats, goals scored and goals conceded? Also, the 1st and last games against each one of the opponents? PMLF 20:39, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
That one could work. If you have the statistical data, put it up so that we can take a look -- you may find it useful to put up a shortened sample of the board you intend to create on the talk page first, as Carioca did in the discussion above; that way, we can work on layout and other variables, if necessary, before altering the article, which would then be done only once. Redux 21:52, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
I was thinking in something like this:
Record of matches between Brazil and Croatia
Games Victories Ties Defeats Goals scored Goals conceded
1 0 1 0 1 1


First game
Date Venue Score


August 17, 2005 Poljud, Split 1:1
Last game
Date Venue Score


August 17, 2005 Poljud, Split 1:1

What do you think? PMLF 23:02, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps we could come up with a more concise format? The example above indicates that we'd need one different board for each opponent. It would be more practical if we could have only one board, where the information for all the countries that Brazil plays can be displayed. It's not my forté, but I'll see if I can come up with a proposal for a design. Redux 13:37, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
I agree with Redux. I tried to do myself a table based on PMLF's suggestion. The table is placed below (by the way, the standings of Brazil against Australia and Japan, in the table below, were invented by me):
Opponent Matches Victories Ties Defeats Goals scored Goals conceded First
match		 Last
match
Croatia 1 0 1 0 1 1 1:1 (on August 17, 2005 at Poljud, Split) 1:1 (on August 17, 2005 at Poljud, Split)
Australia 3 2 0 1 7 1 4:0 (on April 1, 2006 at Sydney Croatia Sports Centre, Sydney) 0:0 (on April 3, 2006 at Maracanã, Rio de Janeiro)
Japan 10 8 1 1 47 12 7:1 (on April 1, 1969 at Parque São Jorge, São Paulo) 0:1 (on April 1, 2000 at Ajinomoto Stadium, Tokyo)

Any comments? Regards, Carioca 02:13, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Excellent! I'm 100% onboard with this board (pardon the pun). Well done Carioca, again! Redux 14:13, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
Thanks. Now user PMLF can use this board, as I don't have the standings of the past matches of Brazil against its World Cup opponents. Carioca 21:59, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
This table is great indeed! I will try to find time to add it into the article with the current info (which I already have here). PMLF 22:55, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
If you are stranded for time, you can write the rough information right here, and one of us will transfer it to the board and put it up in the article. Your call. Redux 00:22, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
Here is the info on these games:
Opponent Matches Victories Ties Defeats Goals scored Goals conceded First
match		 Last
match
Croatia 1 0 1 0 1 1 1:1 (on August 17, 2005 at Poljud, Split) 1:1 (on August 17, 2005 at Poljud, Split)
Australia 5 3 1 1 9 1 1:0 (on July 7, 2006 at Sydney Olympic Park, Sydney) 0:1 (on June 9, 2001 at Munsu Cup Stadium, Ulsan)
Japan 7 5 2 0 16 3 1:0 (on July 23, 1989 at Estádio São Januário, Rio de Janeiro) 2:2 (on June 22, 2005 at RheinEnergieStadion, Cologne)


It would also be interesting to mention somewhere (not in the table) that Brazil has never player before against either of these teams in a WC. PMLF 20:45, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the data. I was planning a short, introductory paragraph for this table, making it clear that those results refer to the history prior to (or coming into) the WC (we will not be changing the table during/after the WC, since the data on the WC matches will go in their own, separate section). The information you mentioned can be included in this paragraph, I suppose (later, we might consider transfering it to the specific section on the World Cup matches). Redux 21:18, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Final lineup

Hi all. As we are less than a week from Parreira's announcement (at the time of this post, naturally), I thought we might get some of the stuff down beforehand, so that we can have a definitive version up in the article asap. I thought that, concerning the players, we should list the following data (aside the obvious name): a) Age; b) What club plays for (and in which country); c) Position (and make a note in case he plays in a different position in his club); d) Place of birth in Brazil (city, state); e) Date of first draft for the national team; f) Number of matches played for national team; g) Number of matches played in World Cups or note that it's the player's first time in a World Cup; h) Number of goals scored for the national team, in general and in World Cups (important: the idea being that those are the stats at the time immediately preceeding the World Cup, those numbers would not be updated during/after the event). And, just as a general reminder, I suppose it would be natural that we'd like to "jazz up" the board by adding images of the players, so I'd request that we keep in mind Wikipedia's image use policy. Any ideas? Suggestions? Redux 00:58, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

It can be a good idea. I made this test table. Any comments?
Name Birthdate Position Birthplace First cap Caps (World Cup caps) Goals scored (Goals scored in World Cups)
João da Silva October 1, 1977 Goalkeeper Campos dos Goytacazes, Rio de Janeiro January 13, 2002 12 (3) 30 (5)

I prefer to avoid adding fair use (or any other non-free) images. Regards, Carioca 03:16, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

The board looks great, as usual. And it's made me realize that the amount of data I was hoping to convey will not fit a sigle table without overloading it. So I was thinking of an alternative: we will likely start a new section for the lineup. I was thinking we could open with the board, as Carioca has just outlined, and then, following it, we could have small subsections with extra information on each player. It would be important to keep it small, since Wikipedia will certainly have main articles on each of the players, making it unnecessary for us to go into detail on their personal lives or even their general careers on this article. We would/should limit the information to data pertinent to the 2006 World Cup — e.g., as I mentioned, for which club they were playing at the time, in which position they were playing in the club and whether or not this corresponds to the position they'll be occupying in the national team for the WC. Redux 07:22, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
Ok, the list is out, and Lesfer has already inserted the squad in the article. I was thinking, however, that perhaps it would be better if, instead of a board (or boards), we used some kind of "fact sheet" for the players. This way, we'd be able to convey a larger amount of information on each player, something that would overload a board. I was thinking of something along those lines (but please improve):

Player 1 (this would be the player's "nickname", e.g. Cafu, Kaká)

  • Full Name: xxx (player's real name, no nicknames)
  • Current club: clubname (clubcountry)
  • Club of origin in Brazil: clubname (city, state) note: not necessarily the player's first club ever, but rather the club that "revealed" him to the larger football world stage
  • Date of Birth: date (age at time of WC)
  • Place of Birth: city, state
  • Position: position in national team / note if plays in different position at club
  • Date of first match with national team: date
  • Date of first match in a World Cup (if applicable) : date
  • Number of matches with national team: x
  • Number of matches in World Cups: x / note that it's the player's first WC
  • Goals scored for national team: x
  • Goals scored in World Cups: x (if applicable, if not, omit line)
That'd be about it. Suggestions? Redux 18:27, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
That can be a good idea, but the problem is that the article may become too large. Carioca 22:03, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
Maybe. 23 players, each with a fact sheet that is 10 to 12 lines long. But maybe it would be possible to list them two by two (two "sheets" side by side, thus using only half of the length that would be necessary). We could try, and if it gets too long, we can go back to the board format. The main thing, for me, is to get the data, which I don't have (at least not all of it, and especially on all the players). Redux 21:46, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
Listing two sheets side by side is a reasonable idea. There are useful info in this link and in this Wikipedia article and in the Editora Mauad's book Seleção Brasileira - 90 anos - 1914-2004 by Antônio Carlos Napoleão and Roberto Assaf. However, some info is really hard to find (like the goals scored for the national team). Regards, Carioca 20:56, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Picking up the pace

I will be starting to pick up the pace for the article, now that the World Cup has begun for the Brazilian team. The first thing I'll be doing is updating our board for the squad. I'll transwiki the board in use at pt.wp, which is visually very nice, but there should be a few adaptations and updates to be done. I will also update the section for the pre-World Cup preparation. Part of the information will be coming from transwiki-ing the article from pt.wp, but there should also be information that I've learned from the (excessive? ;)) TV coverage of the event. I would appreciate any help with finding online sources that could corroborate the data. Cheers to all, Redux 16:36, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Hi, I found some sources:

Regards, Carioca 20:41, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the sources, I'll go over them and link them in the appropriate section of the article when I have a little more time. And thanks for translating the column headers for the board. I must have been a little slow yesterday... I actually cracked my skull trying to figure out what "CA" and "CV" were and I just couldn't. And I knew it had to be something obvious :S. I better go take my vitamins... ;) Thanks, Redux 21:30, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Hi all. Now that the Round-of-16 match is defined, we need to add to the History section, about previous encounters with Gana. I'll be trying to locate the data, but any help will be appreciated. I'm not certain that Brazil and Gana ever played one another in the adult competitions, but if they didn't, I'm thinking we should say so and add a similar history for the under-17/20 teams, where I'm fairly certain they have played against each other. Thoughts? Redux 21:29, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Hi. According to Editora Mauad's 2004 book Seleção Brasileira - 90 anos - 1914-2004 by Antônio Carlos Napoleão and Roberto Assaf, Brazil has only played against Ghana once. The match was played on March 27, 1996, at Estádio Benedito Teixeira, São José do Rio Preto and Brazil won 8-2. See this link for match details. You can also visit the site mentioned above for a list of Brazilian national team matches. Regards, Carioca 22:08, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
Excellent! Thanks, Carioca. I'll add the information to the article. Redux 22:35, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

I have just added the History information for Brazil vs France, but I was unable to find out in which stadium in Rio de Janeiro the first-ever match was played, in 1930. Perhaps someone could come up with this, so that the board can be consistent for all the matches? Thanks, Redux 16:34, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Hi, according to this site, the match was played at Estádio das Laranjeiras. Regards, Carioca 16:42, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
Excellent. Thanks again, Carioca! Redux 16:46, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] In Closing

Oh, crap well, it's over for Brazil. As a consequence, the main work on this article is done, now that I've added the result of the final match :P and made the final update to the board. However, I'm considering a final section, which I'm thinking of calling "Outcome and analysis", or something along those lines (suggestions are more than welcome), in which we'd report Brazil's final standing in the World Cup (no higher than 5th, no lower than 8th, but still awaiting confirmation on that) and a review of the national squad's participation in this World Cup. I would be very careful about the NPOV, but it would be reflective of the criticism for the below-average performance throughout the World Cup and particularly for the final match. This is, of course, no reflection of the authors' opinions, but rather as the media and the public have viewed it. It would also include Parreira's take on the whole thing, which had a rather different approach. I'm not starting this right away though, but if someone wants to get it started, by all means do. But review of wording or even rewrites for NPOV compliance, clarity and objectivity may take place. Redux 01:18, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Hi, the section name "Outcome and analysis" is good. I found some useful info that can be included in this section:

Regards, Carioca 03:56, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Discussing first

As it was done with the boards used in the "History" section as well as in other opportunities, I would appreciate previous discussions before any major overhaul of the present layout of the article. I've just had to revert one such change, because the end result was not satisfactory — it was completely messing up the article, causing sections to overlap and such. Although I am the creator of it, I'm of the opinion that the present design for the "Matches" section is rather good (it's a lot better than what's going on in the more general articles with results for the World Cup, if you ask me...), and I see no reason to go changing it, since there isn't even new information to be added to that section anymore (so there's no need to reaccomodate the data). Thoughts? Redux 13:51, 8 July 2006 (UTC)