Talk:Brandon Teena

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[edit] Added "physiologically"

In reading this article I was a bit confused, so in addition to some minor edits (fixing punctuation, typos, etc.), I added in the opening paragraph a very brief few words indicating that Brandon Teena was "physiologically female," but then everything else is left to refer to the subject as a Male (all pronouns, etc.). To be honest, I found the fact that Teena was referred to as a "he" to be a bit confusing, but now that it clearly states that physiologically Teena was a female, readers should have no problem understanding that the gender identification is largely independent of the subject's genitalia, reproductive organs, and other physiological differences between the sexes. Srajan01 01:37, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

While that is technically correct, it isn't really necessary for WP to handhold people who don't understand gender identity issues. Our job is to report verifiable, reliably sourced information in a correct modern style. It's not our job to explain basic concepts to the backwards. A link from the word "transman" is sufficient; if they are confused they may follow that link to learn more about transgender issues and naming conventions. If the article gets overlong, I would put such unneccessary verbiage on the chopping block, but as the article is fairly small, it isn't necessary yet. Cheers, Kasreyn 15:31, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
"Backwards"? Just because someone knows nothing about this subject does not make them backwards. Calling someone as such only makes you seem closed minded, at best.
My apologies. If you prefer, "ignorant" will do and is probably more correct. In any case, my essential point remains that this article is not the appropriate place to explain basic facts about transgender issues; we already have articles devoted to that purpose. Cheers, Kasreyn 15:41, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

I think that is an appropriate change, it distinctly clarifies Brandon's sex as being physically female when Brandon's gender(or gender identity) is male. Regardless of the pronoun people use for Brandon it is clear who Brandon is. It may be reasonable to remove references to he or she throughout the article and except where Brandon's gender or sex is relevent. When talking about Brandon pysically female would be correct. When talking about Brandon mentally male would be correct.

[edit] Discussion re: "compulsive liar" claim & resulting reverts

Why is the above line constantly being revert-warred over? Is there any evidence/cites to support this? Obviously, as the subject is dead, this isn't a WP:BLP issue, but it's a pretty strong statement & as his parents are still alive, can be pretty offensive. Comments? - Alison ☺ 22:28, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

There's been a bit of discussion about this a bit further up the talk page, under the "Did Brandon Teena date Lisa Lambert?" subheading. Bearcat 22:30, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Only one parent is still alive. And the statement can be found in multiple places in A Jones book "All She Wanted". —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 63.215.29.115 (talk) 23:16, August 21, 2007 (UTC)

If you don't agree with certain people here you get your comments deleted. Good old fashioned censorship hard at work.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 162.58.0.232 (talk • contribs) July 26, 2007.

Anonymous editor, please stop reinserting the unsupported statement that Brandon Teena was a "chronic liar". Please refer to WP:V. If you have sources supporting this statement, please submit them in support. Otherwise, be aware that further such edits will be treated as any other form of vandalism. Deleting vandalous edits does not remotely qualify as an act of "censorship". Good day, Kasreyn 21:21, 21 August 2007 (UTC)


"From that point on, it was virtually impossible to get Teena to talk to her psychiatrists. She preferred not to dredge up any more unhappy or complicated feelings, and no resolution was made about her identity or future. "They called her a compulsive liar," JoAnn recalled. "She stopped attending the sessions after two weeks. They said she didn't need any long-term care and let her go."

Death of a Deceiver by Eric Konigsberg Playboy magazine, January 1995 http://brand0nteena.tripod.com/articlesb/playboy.html —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 63.215.29.115 (talk) 22:02, August 21, 2007 (UTC)

That supports the notion that somebody called Brandon a compulsive liar — it's not sufficient sourcing to state that he was one, or that it's somehow connected to her family having trouble accepting his transgender status. Especially since in that very quote, Brandon's mother isn't saying she thought Brandon was a liar — she's saying that Brandon got labelled as one by the health care system, and quite visibly doesn't say that she agreed with the assessment. Bearcat 22:06, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Brandon was diagnosed as a compulsive liar. If the word of her mother and Lincoln General Hospital psychiatrists are not good enough then what is? There are several more references and an entire book that labels her as someone who twisted the truth as the need arose. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 63.215.29.115 (talk) 22:14, August 21, 2007 (UTC)

I repeat: Brandon's mother is not saying that she agrees that Brandon was a compulsive liar; she's stating that getting labelled as one led Brandon to refuse to see his psychiatrists any further. You haven't shown any source which states that JoAnn Brandon agreed with the assessment or that her agreement with the assessment was in any way connected to her difficulty in accepting or supporting Brandon's gender identity issues. Mental health issues are highly subjective; two different psychiatrists can quite easily and regularly come up with completely different diagnoses and treatment modalities for the same person. You need to show the concurring opinions of multiple psychiatrists — and even then, the appropriate statement would be that Brandon was diagnosed as a compulsive liar by Dr. Smith and Dr. Jones at Lincoln General Hospital, not simply that he was a compulsive liar or that the diagnosis was directly connected to any aspect of Brandon's life for which a connection isn't explicity drawn by the source itself. Bearcat 22:23, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
I agree with Bearcat. Additionally, I have strong qualms about the article in question. First off, I sense a specific antipathy to Brandon Teena in editorial tone. Every attempt is made to cast him as a liar, even though the actual word "liar" is only used once in the entire piece. Even the title is an extremely negative attack: "Death of a Deceiver". (For a second, I thought it might be a LOTR fan's article about the downfall of Sauron the Deceiver, not an article about the horrific hate-crimes perpetrated against a harmless transman. But then, maybe Mr. Konigsberg and I just have different points of view.) After reading the article and feeling its venemous tone - as well as its obstinate, blatant, and in my opinion mean-spirited, insistence on the victim's former (female) name and pronouns, I have grave doubts about using what seems to me to be a poorly-disguised attack piece as a source for an encyclopedia.
Additionally, I can find no allegation in the article that the staff at Lincoln General called Brandon Teena a "liar" or anything similar. Searching the article for the word "hospital", and discounting all references to the medical aftermath of Brandon Teena's rape and murder, we have only one section remaining to consider. I will quote:
In January 1992, Sara Gapp, at the behest of JoAnn Brandon, tricked Teena into a car, telling her they were on their way to Hardee's. Instead, Teena was taken to Lincoln General Hospital, where the Brandons were waiting. After a consultation, a psychiatrist informed Teena that she was having a sexual identity crisis -- as if she hadn't known -- and dispatched her to the Lancaster County crisis center. She was released three days later, after doctors decided she wasn't a suicide threat.
Nothing in there about being a "compulsive liar", or indeed any other kind of liar. In fact, the only instance of the word "liar" in "Death of a Deceiver" is the above quote by JoAnn Brandon claiming that "they" (referring to unspecified psychiatrists) called Brandon a liar. It is not specified whether these psychiatrists were associated in any way with Lincoln General.
In short, anonymous: your argument is more full of holes than a container ship full of swiss cheese that just hit an iceberg. Good night, Kasreyn 01:21, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
P.S. I want to avoid an appearance of this being an overall attack on Playboy's usefulness as a source. There are some times when Playboy publishes something that no other source will because it hits too close to the truth for the comfort of some with vested interests in the status quo. A good example would be Body Pleasure and the Origins of Violence, which if I remember correctly, Playboy either ran a piece on or reprinted. Of course, then there are times when Playboy merely publishes an article to shock and titillate, tabloid-style. I feel this article, "Death of a Deceiver" (wow, that sounds like it should be a Hollywood summer blockbuster title - so hyperdramatic!), is one of the latter. I'd say Playboy articles should always be considered on their merits and never simply be assumed to be reliable (or unreliable). Kasreyn 01:42, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Actually the playboy article had Tom Nissen as the main source. Aphrodite Jones authored a book called "All she wanted" which describes, not so much Teena Brandon, but rather Brandon as a compulsive liar. I have found a web site that has most of this book quoted so I will find many references and we can discuss the issue more in-depth. Also, most of this article can be discussed and discarded as being wrong and not in line with her published accounts by Teena Brandon's own family. As for JoAnn Brandon, if anyone actually lisened to her there would be no mention of the fictional character "Brandon Teena". That person only existed after the Nissen Trials began. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 63.215.29.115 (talk) 02:40, August 22, 2007 (UTC)

Aphrodite Jones, Author, All She Wanted "The essence and the main part of this book has to do with the love story between this male figure and all these young women that this male figure woos. What's behind that psychological and emotionally." Jones told Statewide she doesn't view Teena Brandon as an innocent victim of an unprovoked act of violence. In fact, she claims neither of the convicted murderers is the central villain in the book. [Jones:] Actually if there's anybody who is a villain in the book, it's Teena Brandon." [Q:] In what sense? [Jones:] "She was not only a deceiver in the sense of her sexuality, why did this person need to steal in order to romance these girls? Why was this person such an obsessive compulsive liar? What about this person fed into this crime itself? If this person had not been so pathological in her lying, his lying, would this triple homicide never have occurred? Probably wouldn't have."

http://net.unl.edu/swi/pers/tbrandon.html —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 63.215.29.115 (talk) 02:48, August 22, 2007 (UTC)

In late January of 1992, Brandon was admitted to the Lancaster County Crisis Center as a 19 year old Caucasian woman who repeatedly attempted suicide. She was tricked into going there by Sara and Heather.

Brandon was put on suicide alert. When Joann arrived Teena was very angry. The Psychiatrist said that Teena spoke with said she needed long term extensive treatment. That she was becoming a pathological liar and losing her identity.

http://brand0nteena.tripod.com/biobrandon.html —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 63.215.29.115 (talk) 02:56, August 22, 2007 (UTC)

A few quick things: please do more than just provide a copypasta link and quote. Providing some context as to which source the quote originally appeared in is very important in stitching together the narrative.
Furthermore, your sources are now Tom Nissen, who can certainly never be considered an impartial source seeing as how he was at least (ie convicted of) an accessory to Brandon Teena's rape and murder, and Aphrodite Jones, who I hesitate to speak about since I only heard about her tonight but after admittedly preliminary research appears to be a writer of salacious "true crime" stories and makes appearances on such bastions of impartial, scholarly debate as the O'Reilly Factor. In fact, the very article you reference her from describes her as a writer of "pot boilers" - which is certainly no compliment. Hmm. By the way, can you tell me where Ms. Jones earned her degree in Psychology?
I note that you are interested in including Ms. Jones' description, but you seem less interested in including a quote from the very next section down on that Statewide article. Allow me:
Greta Olafsdottir, Filmmaker: "All they keep talking about there is this girl who keeps passing as a guy. And for us that's--"
Susan Muska, Filmmaker: "Almost blaming it on that person."
Greta: "Yeah, almost blaming that person. For us that's nothing new. We see women dressing as guys all the time."
Susan: "You don't have to kill them."
Susan Muska and Greta Olafsdottir produced a documentary about the case with a much more sympathetic take.
When this is combined with the quote further up the page,
It was a story that attracted national attention, both the serious and the tawdry.
it would seem to me (I merely have to infer here, as Mr. Kelly from Statewide failed to make it clear) that the "tawdry" here refers to Ms. Jones' simplistic, TV-talk-show interpretation, and the "serious" refers to possibly one of the other media reports mentioned farther down the page.
To simply lift the Jones quote from the Statewide article and requote it under the bland assertion that it somehow represents Statewide's or UNL's viewpoint is the poorest of scholarship. It is Ms. Jones' view, and I fail to see what her qualifications are.
And of course, to reiterate, if Playboy truly was foolish enough to use as a primary source in their article on a rape/murder victim, a convicted accomplice to the deed, then their standards of journalism have sunk so low I feel I may have to retract my above defense of them. I can only hope you're mistaken in that regard as well. Kasreyn 04:55, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Just a quick note

Due to all the anon revert-warring going on, I've posted a request at WP:ANI that the article be temporarily semi-protected against anonymous edits. If this is not done, the three revert rule may become involved, and I'm sure no one wants that. We have better things to do here than revert-war against an anonymous editor who has no respect for consensus. My request can be found via this link. Anonymous editor, if you don't like this, I invite you to sign up for an account so we know what to call you. Cheers, Kasreyn 20:22, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

You really need to post this to Wikipedia:Requests for page protection, for an admin to look at it. Ironically, as an admin, I patrol there regularly but will have to recuse myself here as I've edited this - Alison ☺ 20:40, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
Done. Thanks! Kasreyn 21:09, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
It would appear MastCell has already done it. Should I remove my request from WP:RPP? Or will someone else remove it? Kasreyn 21:12, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
I'll do it :) - Alison ☺ 21:14, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Proper Gender Pronouns, and the Nanaharas Issue

(Personal Attack Removed by - Philippe | Talk 04:19, 24 February 2008 (UTC)) I would suggest that Nanaharas be locked out of being allowed to edit this page because of his extreme bias.

The policy on using transsexual pronouns is proper and is supported by all specialists in the field. Gender Identity Dysphoria is a recognized condition with only one recognized course of treatment: gender transition. Furthermore, something called the "Real Life Experience" is necessary, and involved living entirely in the target gender. Doctors require and demand that the patient always be referred to be the target gender, never by the physical sex. So the name indeed is Brandon Teena, and he is most certainly a he. The doctors know best, and that is what they have to say.

Nanaharas needs to be banned from this page, I already had heated words for him over at IMDB. (Personal Attack Removed by - Philippe | Talk 04:19, 24 February 2008 (UTC)) I will personally make it my duty to revert any and all changes he dares make to the article to change any gender pronouns to female or any references whatsoever to female. If I have to babysit this thing, I will. Nanaharas, I will not allow you to trash him, period. If you want a war that bad, I will give it to you. --12.201.55.10 (talk) 06:21, 30 December 2007 (UTC) Brandon Harwell

(Irrelevant statements removed by - Philippe | Talk 04:19, 24 February 2008 (UTC)) ""

[edit] OTRS

Let me get this straight: a person whose entire edit history itself consists of contentious and unverified attack edits to this article can actually demand the removal via OTRS of "personal attack" comments against him or her which (a) weren't attacks in the first place, and (b) can't possibly be connected back to him or her anyway because they're about an anonymous username?

That's truly something straight out of Orwell. Bearcat (talk) 02:07, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Do you have access to OTRS? I do. Let's just say that this relates to a legal concern and that these edits should not be restored at this time - Alison ❤ 02:11, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
That doesn't make the notion that an anonymous editor somehow deserves more protection from purported attack edits than an actual article subject does from real attack edits any less Orwellian. Bearcat (talk) 02:15, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
Bearcat, I know the story here and I've been watching this article for vandalism for years now, since it's been on my watchlist. Check the comments above. Unfortunately, the personal attacks made on the talk page had to be removed, per OTRS. I can't really elaborate - Alison ❤ 02:18, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Was Brandon Teena actually transgender?

The way the movie portrays it, which I'll grant may not the truth, Tina was persecuted so much for being attracted to girls that Brandon was created in order to pass as a boy; a compromise that allowed one to express their sexuality and avoid the perception of being a lesbian and the prejudice and abuse that came with it. If that is what happened, that does not qualify as true transgenderism. But the movie could have gotten that all wrong. I suspect it's actually impossible to know and prove whether Brandon was transgender or not, and we're just guessing. -- AvatarMN (talk) 14:18, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Find a Grave

How is "Find a Grave" being allowed on this as a reference? Does this actually fall within established wiki guidelines? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.3.5.130 (talk) 21:46, 14 May 2008 (UTC)