Talk:Brandenburg-Prussia

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1660? The Elector of Brandenburg inherited Ducal Prussia in 1618.
john 04:44, 10 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Also, Brandenburg-Prussia is a completely inappropriate article to discuss Prussia after 1806, at latest, and is not useful for the earlier period, especially since the article doesn't discuss at all the period before 1701. The whole variety of meanings of the word "Prussia" should be explained in the article on Prussia, including the history of the Kingdom and Land of Prussia under the Hohenzollerns, Weimar Republic, and Third Reich. Certainly, said article should not pretend that the term Prussia refers only to the Baltic region which was originally called Prussia. john 04:58, 10 Jan 2004 (UTC)

It seems you are unfamiliar with the intricacies of Prussian History. The article title is completely appropriate and it is not superfluous. Why do you think that Brandenburg prussia ceased to exist as a state beyond 1806?

If you were following the discussions you would know that the ultimate objective is to merge all smaller Prussia-related articles onto the Prussia page. So don't worry about this. But it is a big Job and takes time and consideration. There are German, Polish, Russian and native Prussian opinions to consider so the best rout is to tell the story of the land than to take sides. That is what the article will do.Zestauferov 08:03, 10 Jan 2004 (UTC)

I am perfectly familiar with the intricacies of Prussian history. The Hohenzollern realm might be called Brandenburg-Prussia before 1806 (although 1772 is probably a better date), because until then "Prussia" might be considered to refer only to the lands outside the Holy Roman Empire, with "Brandenburg, etc" referring to the various territories held by the Kings in (or of, after 1772) Prussia within the Empire. After 1806 the Holy Roman Empire ceased to exist, so the whole thing can now be properly described as the "Kingdom of Prussia" which it certainly was. It was never any longer called Brandenburg-Prussia, and the whole Kingdom was called simply "Prussia" until its end in 1918. After 1918, Prussia continued as one of the Länder within the Weimar Republic, with Brandenburg simply being one of the ten or so provinces of which Prussia was composed. This continued until 1945, when Prussia ceased to exist, and the name was completely banned (even to refer to the Kaliningrad Salient, as far as I am aware). It is completely incorrect to refer to it as Brandenburg-Prussia after the end of the Holy Roman Empire, and even before that it is basically redundant after Friedrich III of Brandenburg made himself King in Prussia in 1701. As for the Prussia article, at present, all you have succeeded in doing is writing a whole bunch of nonsensical and frequently anti-German gobbledygook. john 08:53, 10 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Well John I have a great idea which perhaps you might never have thought of. Why don't you who is so objective and who knows so much correct it!! Isn't that what you ares supposed to do? Then if I think a part is wrong then I will correct it. I assure you that none of what I wrote was intended to be anti-german at all, rather pro-prussian. Your knowledge of the Brandenburg-Prussia state is impressive (except aparently for its early formation). Why don't you stop wining and start editing? I won't mind afterall I always bare in mind "If you don't want your writing to be edited mercilessly and redistributed at will, then don't submit it here." Your irritation is clear but as of yet you have made no direct criticisms please could you do so.Zestauferov

Well, yes, I was perhaps a bit cranky last night. It was four in the morning, so forgive me. What, I think, upsets me about your contributions is their seeming determination to limit the term "Prussia" to refer solely to the Baltic region, and to insist on awkward, anachronistic constructions like 'Brandenburg-Prussia' to refer to the German state that is what most people are familiar with when they hear about Prussia. Clearly, an article about Prussia needs to express that it refers to both a Baltic region and a German state, and to express how the older name for a Baltic region came to be the name for a German state that ended up including most of Northern Germany. john 20:30, 10 Jan 2004 (UTC)

What bothers me is that there is an attempt to do away with the completely legitimate and universally recognised more appropriate term Brandenburg-Prussia in favour of maintaining the political shell game of calling it Prussia. Granted there is nothing wrong with the term Kingdom of Prussia to distinguish it from Prussia proper but to pretend that this Greater Prussia still existed beyond WW1 is frankly alarming in that it brings to mind exactly the kind of right-wing nationalist thinking which was ultimately responsible for the deletion of the land. I would like to know if you can recall for my own reference the details of which publication/s you are refering to when you maintain that Greater Prussia (since you do not like the term Brandenburg Prussia, and we both know that the Kingdom of Prussia did not continue beyond WW1) existed up until the end of WW2?

I reverted your editing out of the term Brandenburg-Prussia since it is confusing and we are trying to sort out the chaos of misnomers to help researchers. But you have edited it back to Prussia again. I am going to re do the edit since this article is about Brandenburg Prussia which was ruled from Berlin in Brandenburg not Konigsburg in Prussia. If you are certain a reference pertains to rule from Konigsburg instead of Brandenburg then feel free to correct such individual references. As far as I am aware Prussia's only power in the Brandenburg-Prussia state was in coronation.

I am also moving Road-runner's very useful comment to the Prussian page since it is more pertinent there rather than here.Zestauferov 09:31, 24 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Why do you refuse to accept the basic fact that, although the term "Prussia" originally only referred to a small Baltic province, by the act of making themselves Kings in (and later of) Prussia, the Hohenzollerns created a situation whereby that name eventually came to apply to their entire holdings. You'll note that most of the results for "Brandenburg-Prussia" on a google search that actually use that term (as opposed to "Brandenburg, Prussia") are either from Wikipedia or those evil sites that steal Wikipedia. The country is called "Prussia." A man born in, say, Düsseldorf, or Wittenberg, in 1880 would have considered himself a Prussian. Personally, I think that Brandenburg-Prussia should be a brief article on the use of this name in the 17th and 18th centuries, and that the Prussia article should include a full discussion of both the province and the state of Prussia. (History of Prussia, which now, rather misleadingly, redirects to an article on the Teutonic Order, should cover the history in greater detail, perhaps, or just redirect to Prussia, which can tell the history.) john 22:57, 24 Jan 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Note on recent edits

I have just cleared up the incorrect opening statement (referring to Brandenburg-Prussia as a period rather than a monarchy) and added information on territorial gains. I have also done an all-round copy edit in the interest of clarity. While I did this, another editor (Space Cadet) added information on the return of parts of East Prussia to Poland after 1945. Since this happened long after Brandenburg-Prussia had ceased to exist, and since this article does not otherwise cover the subsequent status of Brandenburg-Prussia's territories, I copied over Space Cadet's edit. Marco polo 16:29, 14 June 2007 (UTC)