Talk:Brahman

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"Connected with the ritual of pre-Vedantic Hinduism, Brahman signified the power to grow, the expansive and self-altering process of ritual and sacrifice, often visually realised in the sputtering of flames as they received the all important ghee (clarified butter) and rose in concert with the mantras of the Vedas. Brahmin came to refer to the highest of the four castes, the Brahmins, who by virtue of their purity and priesthood are held to have such powers."

Is the origin of the earliest concept of Brahman an outcome of Brahmin or Kshatriya thinking in the Vedas?

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Perhaps the Devanagari versions of the words Brahman, Brahma and Brahmin would help clear up the confusion that is usually found. I'm afraid I don't know how to encode Devanagari into these documents, so let me attempt to 'spell out' the pronunciation of these words. 'Brahman' (as in the unchanging and underlying Reality) is pronounced 'brah-man', with both vowels short, resembling the 'u' in 'up'. 'Brahma' (the first of the Hindu Trinity) is pronounced 'brah-maa'. The first syllable is pronounced identically to the first syllable of Brahman, but the second syllable is pronounced like 'fa' in 'father'. 'Brahmin' (the caste) can be pronounced in two ways: the Anglicised version, and the original Sanskrit version. The Anglicised pronunciation is 'bra-min', where the 'a' is pronounced like the 'a' in 'cat'. The Sanskrit pronunciation is 'braah-ma-Na'. The first syllable is stressed and pronounced like 'fa' in 'father', and the next two syllables are unstressed with both vowels pronounced like the 'u' in 'up'. The 'N' in the third syllable is not the normal 'n' we use in English (as in the words 'nice' and 'naval'), but a retroflex 'n' (the tip of the tongue should be near the palate and bent backwards). Gokul 06:01, May 16, 2004 (UTC)

1 Changes
2 anonymous anti-Shankara polemic
3 Duplication
4 Definition
5 script
6 pro brahman bias
7 in other words
8 Etymology
9 Brahman in Earliest Buddhism
10 POV tags

[edit] Changes

This article is quite small and doesn't really do the trick. I've started with a major upheaval and would like to trace its early origins and eventual metamorphosis over the years. Also, the quoted analyses of so many great Hindu systems to be found in the Upanishads, the Yoga Sutras, the Tantras, and Hindu saints in particular like Shankaracharya, Chaitanya, Ramakrishna and Vivekananda, Shri Aurobindo, Ramana Maharshi, etc. would greatly benefit the page and shed better light on the subject, in my opinion, than any other possible summarizing most others could do. I'm in a rush doing volunteer work and studies, but I'll keep trying to add occasionally. I hope others put in their ideas and maybe we can make this a Featured Article sometime. I guess the only problem would be that one couldn't have any adequate pictures... though since AUM is integrally tied to the concept of Brahman we could do neat things with that. --LordSuryaofShropshire 17:10, Jul 1, 2004 (UTC)

My Lord Surya: You made the following change:

from

brahmán on the other hand, is a priest, one of the Brahmin caste (brahmin being an adjective). Etymologically, the word may be related to latin flamen (a priest), supporting the "trifunctional hypothesis" of Georges Dumézil.

Brahmin is another term with the same root, which refers to the highest of the four castes, the Brahmins, who by virtue of their purity and priesthood are held to have such powers.

and marked it as minor. How is this a minor change (such as correcting punctuation etc)? The flamen comparison you removed without comment, even though I gave my source and quoting a "hypothesis", making it NPOV. I know that flamen=brahman is doubtful, but the possibility deserves mention. So could you please restore it.

More involved is the brahmän : brahmin issue. My immediate source is the Monier-Williams dictionary. We are dealing with a chronological problem here. In vedic sanskrit, accent was important, and it was enough to distinguish "prayer" (accent on first syllable) from "priest" (accent on second syllable). At that time, "brahmin" was a simple adjective relating to these concepts. Later, it seems the distinction became too subtle, and the former adjective became the name for the members of the caste. Maybe you did not know this, but then that's what an ecyclopedia is for (not just for editing, but also for learning new things). The point of noting accent and gender of brahman "prayer" is to contrast it with "brahman" priest, which you removed. Could you maybe add your notion of brahmin purity without removing this carefully researched information? thank you -- Dbachmann 13:12, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I reverted my etymological stuff, making your romantic description of ritual and sacrifice a separate paragraph (although I doubt it belongs under a heading "Etymology and origin of the name Brahman"). I hope you can live with this. Dbachmann 14:38, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Your sarcasm aside, I'm quite aware of the linguistic changes witnessed from Vedic to Upanishadic and post-Vedantic Hinduism. However, your flamen thesis, regardless of its source, is frivolous and a minority opinion at best; also, my aim is to clearly delineate the differences between ancient, middle and modern usages of the term, which contribute greatly to understanding by modern readers. By leaving unexplained diacritics (which most people, who don't study any sort of linguistics, let alone Sanskrit) you confuse people. I hope your constitution can bear with the possibility of modification of your immaculate writing. --LordSuryaofShropshire 18:03, Aug 8, 2004 (UTC)

agreed, let's leave our sarcasm aside. I admit I was disgruntled at your unexplained change. I would have taken much less offence had you presented your reasons, even if I don't agree with them. I will not interfere with your exposition of Hindu Brahman as divine reality etc. This is simply about the etymology section, where the word itself should be explained. brahman and flamen are a perfect equation according to latin and indic sound-laws. How is it frivolous to say a word meaning "priest" in Sanskrit may be related to a word meaning "priest" in Latin? Are you implying that Hindu religion is in some way more sublime than roman religion? The reason the equation is disputed is not because it is faulty, but because there are other, equally convincing explanations for flamen. Now if you would call frivolous the etymological connection of brahman and bulge I could understand. But this is not disrespect, it is language change. The concept is by no means degraded because its name derives from an ultimately mundane root. The hypothesis brahman:flamen is well known, widely quoted in etymological dictionaries, has weighty implications and certainly has a place in a section on the etymology of brahman. If you want to add that it's probably a minority view, that's fine with me. Ah, yes, and if you expand the explanation, giving a deeper perspective of how the word evolved in Vedic/Sanskrit, rather than removing information, I will of course be thankful and will shed no tears for my then-superseded formulations. Dbachmann 19:26, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I have no such pretensions about the sublimity of any religion or cultural paradigm. I am perfectly aware that myriad connections between what are now considered European and Indian languages exist. Flamen and Brahman have little of an implicit or explicit relationship, in spite of the notoriety of the thesis. I have also not removed your information in this most recent of edits and hope that we can call this a fair resolution. --LordSuryaofShropshire 21:15, Aug 8, 2004 (UTC)

alright... look, I am aware that you put some effort into this article, and I don't want to spoil it for you. So how about this: have a look at the Brahma disambiguation page. These words are all etymologically related. It's not obvious that the resolution of the etymological connections have to be in this Brahman article, they could be in any of these, or in a separate one, say, Brahman (etymology). So how about I take my flamen and go away to a separate article resolving the history of all these terms in more detail (explaining the diacritics etc. in all leisure). Dbachmann 06:45, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Jayjg: Those "centuries passed" and "1st millenium BCE" are pure speculations based on the linguistic analysis ("do you think this language looks older than this... I don't."). No evidence though it's repeated on and on because "100x repeated lie becomes truth." (Goebbels) Just to let you know.

[edit] anonymous anti-Shankara polemic

I removed the following. I would like to edit and NPOV-ized it and add it back into the article. (But if anyone else can, please go ahead.) --goethean ॐ 16:23, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

It is interesting to note that the term Saguna Brahman is nowhere to find in Vedic striptures nor in Vedanta-sutra. Adhi Shankaracharya, great advaita scholar has introduced his concept of Saguna Brahman, or Brahman with material qualities appearing in practical reality as ishvara (God) and jiva (individual soul). Why did he do so? Primary reason is because of the how we interpret the scripture. We can understand the scripture both in terms of its direct (mukhya-vritti) or indirect (gauna-vritti) meaning. When faced with multitude of verses from different scriptures in which pastimes (lilas), qualities, form of God and the virtues of devotion were explained, to construe an interpretation that supports the advaita theory one is faced with the formidable task of explaining all that in terms of secondary meaning. To avoid this, and to interpret everything mentioned in a primary, direct meaning, Shankaracharya had to make something: he introduced his concept of Saguna Brahman. So this term and explanation is his invention, not found anywhere in Vedanta-sutra. In a way, Saguna Brahman becomes a Procrustes' bed of Shankaracharya made to fit evidence from vast Vedic literature and Vedanta-sutra into his philosophy.

You may remove it, but this is exactly what happened. It is in no way anti-Sankara. Sankara was a practical person. Consider what he had to do in some 16 years of his 32 years' life, travel over the length and breadth of India (I suppose many times with the facilities and dangers facing him in probably 8th century) establish four central places of worship, defeat Buddhist acharyas, organize all fractitious sadhus of India in ten orders, write beautiful poetry and major works of philosophy. It is for nothing that some people consider him as an avatar of Shiva. Aupmanyav 11:42, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Duplication

There seems to be a duplication between this page, and Brahman (god). Obviously, this page is more detailed. How does one go about removing the duplication? --mkamat 20:06, August 25, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Definition

I think the definition posted on wikipedia is fatally flawed. Brahman is not a "supreme cosmic spirit", its not the infinity of consciousness, not the infinity of space, not material nor immaterial, not dual nor non-dual, not personal nor impersonal, it is uncreate, unborn, without attributes, it is best described as "neither this, nor that"

Since Brahman is uncreate, it isn't anything our material intellect can grasp, it would be like a blind man imagining color. Brahman is just as it is, just as it always was, uncreate, therefore not subject to creation

--Mdsats 22:04, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

The use of the term world soul to define Brahman is inaccurate. Besides reasons similar to those suggested by Mdsats (above), the concept of the world soul is more closely related to Paramatman.

Solace098 22:12, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] script

could we get more IPA and less Devanagari, on this article? Devanagari is entirely redundant if you give the terms in IAST. Why, in IAST, you can even give accentuation, something that is theoretically possible in Devanagari, but probably impossible in Unicode (and why bother?). dab (ᛏ) 22:17, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] pro brahman bias

hi, I think this page is a bit slanted towards the pro brahman caste (at least compared to the information on other castes). I would make contributions, but I really don't know much about India except the hostility of the brahman caste towards Christian missionaries. Anyways, I will do some research and find out the truth.

'Brahman' is in no way biased towards a particular caste (priests, normally written as brahmins, but correctly 'brAhman'). Please note the different spelling and pronunciation, 'Brahman' (a as in 'a') for the ultimate reality and 'BrAhman' (A as in 'ask') for the priestly class. Though the true 'BrAhman' was supposed to have understood 'Brahman'. Hinduism is inclusive, the hostility is to any thought of exclusivism. A Christian, a Muslim, an untouchable, a street dog, a leaf, a stone; 'Brahman' constitutes everything. Vedas say 'Sarva Khalvidam Brahma' (All Creation 'Brahman'). Aupmanyav 11:27, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] in other words

" While Brahman lies behind the sum total of the objective universe " can someone rephrase this ( just for me ) i cant understand it ... thanks Hhnnrr 15:22, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Leave out the subjective universe that we observe through our senses, come to the reality, leave nothing out, which is the objective universe. 'Brahman' lies behind that, creating it without any effort, out of itself, just by its inherent properties, its active principle (termed as 'Maya' by the hindus). Personally, I term it matter/energy, inseparable, indistinguishable from each other, ever changing, constituting the whole universe. Aupmanyav 11:24, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Etymology

'Brahman' is related to bulge and may also be related to birth, just a thought. Aupmanyav 11:15, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Brahman in Earliest Buddhism

Apologies that the edit wars on anatta and Buddhism have spilled over to this page. I'd like to make a few notes on why I think anon (who is actually User:Attasarana)'s contributions should be removed. Italicised portions below are quotations from his version. - Nat Krause^(Talk!) 21:34, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Nat Krause has posted here mere conjecture-speculation, no evidences; all religious debates are Sola Scriptura (in Doctrine), dont post personal POV conjecture as 'defacto' Buddhism -Attasarana, Buddhologist, Pali translator, author of books on Buddhism, expert in Advaita and Neoplatonism.

It has been asserted by current secular Buddhism, that Buddhism knows only of the gods (Brahma) and nothing of the Godhead/Absolute/Agathon Brahman.

This is a statement which deserves some nuance, but none is given. Also, "secular" here appears to be a malapropism for "sectarian". -NK

In actuality there can be doubt that in the grammatically ambiguous expression Brahmabhu’to (attano) which describes the condition of those who are wholly liberated, that it is Brahman (the Absolute) and not Brahma (deva, or mere god) that is in the text and must be read; for it is by Brahman that one who is “wholly awake” has ”become.”

In addition to the fact that Attasarana's bona fides as a translator of Pali have certainly not been established, it's not clear if he means to say, "there can be no doubt" here. If so, that is clearly a POV and contrary to Wikipedia style. Also, "there can be no doubt that in the grammatically ambiguous expression ..." isn't a very sensible thing to say. However, I don't know what this passage is getting at otherwise. -NK

Nat Krause has no "bona fide" evidence he can read Pali at all, much less creds. for same.

The highest appellation in Buddhist Nikayan sutra is “Brahambhutena attano” [MN 1.341] “The Soul is having become Brahman”; absolutely equivalent to ‘Tat tvam asi’ (That/Brahman, thou art).

This seems a logical leap.-NK

[DN 1.249] “ I teach the way to the union with Brahman, I know the way to the supreme union with Brahman, and the path and means leading to Brahman, whereby the world of Brahman may be gained.”

I should like a second opinion on this translation. Also, the Digha Nikaya to my knowledge contains 34 sutras, so I'm not sure what the "249" here (and other similar numbers) refers to. There have been some questions about Attasarana's citations on Talk:Anatta-NK

Get a clue, son, its called Roman indexing, BY VERSE, DN 1.249 is Digha nikaya, book 1, verse 249. Its the common indexing system used by both the PTS and Wisdom Publ.; since you dont know that obvious fact, its every so clear you know nothing about Pali or its various indexing systems.

Thanks for clarifying that. Unlike you, I have never claimed to be a scholar of Pali. But, do you mean verses or do you mean page numbers? Digha Nikaya, Vol. 1, page 249 is the Tevijja Sutta, which deals with the Brahma Viharas, whereas verse 249 looks like it's somewhere toward the end of the Ambattha Sutta. Similarly, I found your quotation from [DN 3.84] in the Aggañña Sutta ("Because, Vasettha, this designates the Tathágata: 'The Body of Dhamma,' that is 'The Body of Brahma,' or 'Become Dhamma,' that is 'Become Brahma.'"), which is apparently in the vicinity of PTS page 84.—Nat Krause^(Talk!) 00:54, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Of course is has nothing to do with page number, I mentioned no such nonsense at any time. I said VERSE.

The primary Pali indexing is VRI, Myanmar, Thai, and foremostly Roman. Early PTS (pali text society) switched over to Roman verse numbering, the same numbering also used in WISDOM NIKAYAN translations, also Roman verse numbering is found in the CSCD, a digital search CD used by Pali scholars with has all Pali texts on it. Do a google.com search for "CSCD PALI". -Attasarana, Buddhologist, Pali translator, author of books on Buddhism, expert in Advaita and Neoplatonism.

Okay, so your citation from [DN 3.84] is definitely not from the Aggañña Sutta? Is your [DN 1.249] citation from the Tevijja? I think this might be it: "For Brahmà, I know, Vàsettha, and the world of Brahmà, and the path which leadeth unto it. Yea, I know it even as one who has entered the Brahmà-world, and has been born within it!" And a passage from a bit earlier seems like it might be your [DN 1.248] citation, "It has been told me, Gotama, that the Samana Gotama knows the way to the state of union with Brahma." I also found what I think is your [[SN 3.83] citation on page 83 of the third volume of the PTS Samyutta Nikaya (the Khajjaniyavaggo): "Without desires, they become Brahma." I haven't found anything similar yet in other places—if you have the information handy, can you tell me what suttas I should be looking at?—Nat Krause^(Talk!) 05:33, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Nat Krause is famous for making baseless claims hes incapable of substantiating; as such hes only agenda is protecting is illogical, non-doctrinal, and flawed view of what is, in fact, Buddhism in name only. For Gotama is "A man of the Upanishads"- Udana, and a Tevijjan (Comprehensor of the 3-Vedas). -Attasarana, Buddhologist, Pali translator, author of books on Buddhism, expert in Advaita and Neoplatonism.

[edit] POV tags

The "Enlightenment and Brahman" section reads, for the most part, like a religious pamphlet. It is obviously and horribly POV.

The "Brahman and Atman" isn't quite as bad by the look of it, except for all those words in upper case. This has clearly been done for rhetorical effect and is quite out of place. And I just don't believe that any mainstream Hindu groups or religious scholars use neologisms like "microsoulspark" or "megasoul". As for the rest of the section, it looks OK, but it needs citations, as does the rest of the article for that matter. Ireneshusband 06:50, 15 December 2006 (UTC)