Talk:Brahma Kumaris World Spiritual University/Archive03

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Contents

Some inaccuracies in the article

I don't feel the need to qualify myself as a BK, in real life or on wikipedia. You may believe about me what you will, but either way that does not disqualify me from making edits. My edits should be judged for what they, and not who they were done by, as with anyone else. Out of interest, have you been in gyan for 20 years or is it that you came into gyan 20 years ago and left some years after? How the Knowledge is taught in India and abroad is obviously going to be different due to a different audience with different cultures, traditional beliefs etc. I believe you have some bias against the BKs. The wording of your posts suggests so, as does your linking to an organisation made up of ex-BKs which would be inherently biased against the BKs. Please attempt keep your bias in check. I will attempt the same with mine.

  • 1. 'I can certainly say that it was Shrimat for BKs not to court or accept donations from Shudra souls. It still is largely in India where bribery and corruption are rife but I cannot state if this is still true for the West now.' [emphasis added]. If that is the case you will need to provide citations that this was the case, and the sentence that states that 'Donations are generally not accepted from non-B.K.s as their money is considered as " impure "' will need to be removed as it does not cite an authoritative source. 'Murlis' on an ex-BK website do not constitute reliable sources when the topic at hand is the BK organisation itself. If it cannot be proved either way, it should be omitted from the article. Anything else would be siding with the version of the article before my edit simply because it was the earlier version. Also, the process is what is important here and not the person, as 'impure' souls are capable of doing 'pure' acts. After all, most BKs aren't at a karmateet stage and so are still 'impure' so to say.
  • 2. a. Even if the BK estimates are seen as unreliable, then the article will have to reflect that. But at the moment that section does not cite a source.

b. 'A multi-million dollar registered "educational" charity that in 70 years has only been known once to distribute aid outside of its operations.' That is not even a proper sentence. It definitely does not belong under a section entitled 'Global Expansion'. What it lacks in form it also lacks in content. It is misleading in that it gives the impression that the BKs are hoarding money, and if it is to be said that the BKs have only ever once donated outside of its operations, then it will also need to be said exactly where this money is going instead.

  • 3. 'Their god' is not neutral wording. Again, Brahma Baba is not seen as God. Yes, the word 'businessman' is accurate, but not in this context! He was a diamond jeweller but this was not continued once the BKs were established. This is misleading and derragotory, implying he became a spiritual leader because of the business prospects! Also it does not need to state that he was a 'priest or authentic caste Brahmin.' This section especially is full of fragments and needs to be edited.
  • 4. Again, you would need to a cite a reliable and authoritative source. Also, any reference the BKs make to 'Krishna' is not what is typically seen as Krishna - with the latter being purple skinned, an avatar of Vishnu etc. This is inaccurate and misleading, and this sentence needs to be changed to avoid this, seeing as this sections attempts to outline the core philosophy and beliefs of the BKs.

I believe this article needs to be flagged as NPOV and a warning needs to be up saying that it does not cite its sources. PEACE 89.240.134.193 09:58, 28 August 2006 (UTC)


OK. I apologize for the forthrightness but let us take this point by point using sources acceptable to the Wikipedia to check your neutrality, competance and integrity as a Wiki researcher. Unfortunately, the NPOV tag is all too often used by individuals or organizations that have something to hide, to discredit objective and documented reviews of their activities. A Wiki topic is not intended as PR for the BKWSU. That is what its own websites are for. Let us work together to provide citable sources.
  • 2 b.Donations and the Multi-Millions. Let us look at the British BKWSU zone as you are under its influence. Hopefully, you will be able to produce accounts internationally and from the Indian headquarters to disprove the assertion made at present on the basis of the folowing.
According the English Charity's stated object, it was set up on 18 July 1975 to:
  • (I) TO PROMOTE THE ADVANCEMENT OF THE HINDU RELIGION AND OTHER RELIGIONS OF THE WORLD.
  • (II) TO PROMOTE STUDIES OF AND RESEARCH IN THE FIELD OF HINDU RELIGIOUS PHILOSOPHY, YOGA (VARIOUS TECHNIQUES OF CONCENTRATION AS DEFINED AND DISCUSSED IN HINDU SCRIPTURES) AND TO MAKE KNOWN THE RESULTS OF SUCH STUDIES AND RESEARCH.
  • (III) TO RELIEVE POVERTY, MENTAL AND PHYSICAL SICKNESS AND DISTRESS.
Source: [1]
According to accounts held in the public domain at the Charitable Commission here; [2], over the last 5 years it has had a income of £1,200,000 to £2,800,000 and holds in excess of £15,000,000 in the bank taken in donations from its followers. It has spent approximately £1,000,000 on a new meditation centre and accounts state that its policy is" to invest in bank deposits".
Show me, via the accounts where or when it has ever acted to alleviate poverty from the period of 1975 onwards and how it spent money alleviating poverty. Perhaps once you have done so, we can also address as an additional point, whether the BKWSU was actually set up to "PROMOTE THE ADVANCEMENT OF THE HINDU RELIGION" and whether it is based on beliefs "DEFINED AND DISCUSSED IN HINDU SCRIPTURES". Your statements regarding Krishna would seem to contradict this.
Please note, Chief administrator, Dadi Janki Kripalani is on her own website reported to be a "a highly effective spiritual entrepreneur", here [3] and elsewhere through the media. It would not therefore appear that the correlation between business and spirituality is contradictory to the organization's activities.
Thank you. 195.82.106.244 14:14, 28 August 2006 (UTC)


195.82.106.244, had a look at the Charitable commission accounts link that you cited. Got to say it all looks entirely reasonable to me. Most of the £15 million is tied up in buildings and other essential service facilities.
So how do they address poverty? Couple of things I might mention. When I first ran into the bk about 5 years ago now, I noticed discreet little boxes with “Indian Earthquake” Appeal on them. No hard sell, no obligation, but if you inquired you were welcome to make a donation, casual visitors included.
As to how they do it in the West. Happy enough to speak from experience. You’re encouraged to develop a spiritual perspective which not only improves mental and physical health, gotta tell you bud, the day to day basics become a whole heap more affordable when you finally draw the line on the 30 fags a day and pub every night after work habit. More too, much of the infantile keeping up with the Jones’s led consumerism goes as well, so even more hard earned cash stays in your bank account.
As to your query on “whether the BKWSU was actually set up to "PROMOTE THE ADVANCEMENT OF THE HINDU RELIGION" and whether it is based on beliefs "DEFINED AND DISCUSSED IN HINDU SCRIPTURES".”
Well, I’m no real student of the core teachings, but I've had a look at one of the more balanced references on this site. Reender Kranenborg, Free University of Amsterdam. " Brahma Kumaris: A New Religion? " [8], 1999. Might shed some light for you.
--searchin man 00:14, 29 August 2006 (UTC)


  • As far as the core teachings go, I prefer the core teachings which are easily verifiable by Wikipedia standards and so therfore citable. You can read some of them here. [4]. The BKWSU generally keep them locked up with passwords and PGP encryption on the internet but some BKs are sick of that - or support the PBKs - and have released them to the public domain. A number of non-orthodox BKs are also publishing them, so we do not have to rely on hearsay or front of house PR any more. Failing these, you can go to a BK Raja Yoga Centre and request to be read them.
  • Donations. Just show us the bottomline. How much, where, when.
  • Raja Yoga is not based on Hindu scriptures - any BK care to disagree and provide citable references ? BKs believe that the Hindu Scriptures are based on BKWSU teachings. I can provide citations.
  • "Baba says is the Murlis" - which is something that you will hear the BKs say all the time - that BK don't perform Bhakti, don't go to Temples, worship statues, follow Gurus etc. What they are told is that they belong to their own BK Brahmin Religion that will then become the 900,000 strong Deity religion in the future heavenly Golden Age [ approx 30 years ] and then in about 2,500 years reincarnate again as Hindus worshipping themselves. The only argument for "advancing the Hindu religion" is essentially destroying it or leading its followers out of "impurity" and "ignorance". Which are the words they use.
I state "BK Brahmin" and "BK Raja Yoga" so as not to confuse between the BKs and proper caste Brahmins and traditional Raja Yoga.
BTW, 89.240.134.193, Shamsunder Krishna is blue not purple. It is symbolic.
Any BK care to disagree and provide citable references ? 195.82.106.244 04:54, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Would it be possible to keep the entire discussion of 'Some inaccuracies within the article' on one page, and not in two archives? It would be a lot easier to see the whole discussion that way and will also provide the necessary context for what we are discussing now.

Seeing as though we agree about the article needing citable reliable and authoritative sources, should a warning not be put up in the meantime showing readers that this article does not cite its sources?

On the point of donations, 2b, your summary of the BK accounts in the UK is misleading. It does not 'hold in excess of £15m in the bank taken from donations'[paraphrase], rather it has £15,942,517 in 'tangible fixed assets'. This is an important distinction, one which the user searchin man has also highlighted. Once depreciation is taken into account, tangible fixed assets total £12,194,930 (all figures are those at 31st December 2004). This can be found on page 12 of the annual financial report which is in that link you provided [11]. Furthermore, 'cash in hand at bank' totalled £3,626,426 at the end of 2004. Whilst it is true that the 'Investment policy' on page 3 states the 'current policy is to invest in bank deposits', page 14 indicates exactly why the BKs are putting money into their bank account; 'the excess cash revenue is earmarked for further expansion of the BKWSU activites by aquiring land and property in areas where it has less presence'.

Unfortunately it would require someone with more expertise on non-UK equivalents of the Charity Commission to find the relevant documents, with the language barrier standing as it is. Many BKs will be able to testify that the organisation raised money to donate to the Asian Earthquake and the South East Asian Tsunami appeals, and it remains to be seen whether these efforts were noted in official documents. Hopefully, with time, they will appear. However, this does not mean that the fragment 'A multi-million dollar registered "educational" charity that in 70 years has only been known once to distribute aid outside of its operations.' does not also need to cite a source. Whilst you cannot prove a negative, a source here would serve both purposes. Until then it should either be re-written, deleted or a [citation needed] will need to be put there.

Also, I believe common sense dictates that the use of the phrase 'spiritual entrepreneur' is not meant to denote a link between business and spirituality.

I apologise for mistaking the colour of Krishna's skin. Even if it is symbolic it must be noted that the BK use of the word Krishna differs greatly from the traditional use of the term. It is misleading, inaccurate and will need to be edited. I take it you are agreement with points 1, 3 and 4? If not, please state why following my previous post. PEACE 84.13.205.142 20:25, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

phasis added]. If that is the case you will need to provide citations that this was the case, and the sentence that states that 'Donations are generally not accepted from non-B.K.s as their money is considered as " impure "' will need to be removed as it does not cite an authoritative source. 'Murlis' on an ex-BK website do not constitute reliable sources when the topic at hand is the BK organisation itself. If it cannot be proved either way, it should be omitted from the article. Anything else would be siding with the version of the article before my edit simply because it was the ----84.13.205.142 20:25, 29 August 2006

NPOV

"I believe this article needs to be flagged as NPOV and a warning needs to be up saying that it does not cite its sources. PEACE 89.240.134.193 09:58, 28 August 2006 (UTC)"

It is evident that the authors of this page have a clear dislike with BK. User .244 has his own web site brahmakumaris.info where he clearly edits, changes and does wahtever is necessary to fit his beliefs, it is not surprising that he wants to do the same here. Any serious "encyclopedia" must have a non-biased approach when informing the public. How many votes do we need to get the NPOV tag and a very strong warning? What is the policy on this? So far 2 votes.
Last but no least, Talkabout. still waiting for the "computer glitch" in the brahmakumaris.info to be resolved. My membership there has not been reinstated. I am being blamed for calling "Ex-l" as "195.82.106.244" and that was considered a personal attack. Hopefully he will not edit this out.
As always Best Wishes, avyakt7 21:17, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
OK Avyakt Bud, sound enough, but I can see no reference to this on the brahmakumaris.info forum, so I guess it must have been censured as well? What say you .244? Tell you what Bud, if you are Ex-l, then from what I’ve seen of your postings, I wouldn’t say you’ve a clear dislike for the bk, more the mother of all clear dislikes for not only them but pretty much anyone else you can find on the web with any hint of association with them.
Guess we better make that 3 votes for the NPOV tag then hadn’t we? Sincerely searchin man 23:05, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
avyakt7,
I must say to you that your sensitivity here is lacking. As stated before there was no issue until your membership was at risk. Play nice and maybe others will play with you.
  • First, as you know many Ex BK suffer from trauma once they leave due to the constant talk of destruction.
  • Secondly, the forums serve as a place where they (ExBks) do not have fear, where they have an outlet to discuss all these tenents that the Organisation wants kept secret and which they are trying to sort out.
  • Thirdly, I see that the PBKs act with more tact and sensitivity in being able to play nice in the sandbox with both BKs and ExBKs. Your skills (computer/flash) are good, artistic and I am sure you can elicit some interaction from other active BKs. So, if you can't play nice, start your own party. MY VOTE IS NO NPOV.
Riveros 11 avyakt7 = searchin man? Are we having a duality moment here?
TalkAbout 01:00, 29 August 2006 (UTC)


Bhais,
a) If you want to use the Wikipedia, read the rules. " Wikipedia is not an experiment in democracy or any other political system. Its primary method of determining consensus is discussion, not voting. In difficult cases, straw polls may be conducted to help determine consensus, but are to be used with caution and not to be treated as binding votes. "
That is the official policy.
b) 89.240.134.193 if you want citations, place one of the following citation request at the point where it is required by using the following markup ;
{{cn}} or {{Cite needed}}
and allow us time to provide them. Be warned, it is a two way process and the BKWSU will equally have to provide its citations where requested and I would like to request now overall Global financial statements detailing how much money and what proportion of donations it has actually given to alleviate poverty, when it started to do so and so on. If you can request this from your Zone-in-Charge then we will make for a very neutral and accurate report.
c) If you have answers, and citable sources, let us see them and reach that consensus. You have not provided any to support your positions to date. I am perfectly willing to provide mine.
d) Avyakt7, honestly, if you got kicked off a webforum for attacking someone else, go fix it with the owners. You are a BK teacher in Florida. That was obvious back in March of this year. What Shrimat have your taken to act in the manner that you are acting? Tell us the whole story. More personal attacks?
OK, so I voted against your "Cycle of Time" topic but the overwhelming consensus was against you. I am sure you love Baba but science is another game.
d) Transformation versus Destruction. Avyakt7 again. Yes, I also removed your Transformation re-writes. We all know that the concept of "Destruction" is and has been key to the BKWSU teachings. OK. I am very sorry if I hurt your feelings. But if the BKWSU have stated there is going to be no Destruction, no death of 6 Billion human beings, no Confluence Age, therefore no Golden Age - provide the citations.
So, of course, it does not require a NPOV. What it requires is dialogue and citable evidence. Honestly, you BKs are becoming more like the Scientologists every day! 195.82.106.244 04:22, 29 August 2006 (UTC)


Real disappointed with you there Talkabout. When I first looked in on this discussion, you had raised Avyakt7’s complaint on the user Brahmakumaris.info talk page and I took it as some indication of impartiality. Now I see all trace of that has been removed and Avyakt7 still locked out. Can’t see any further communication between yourself and user Brahamkumaris.info on the matter either, so whatever your offline communication was, seems the hostile mockery in your above response to Avyakt7 means you’re now pretty satisfied his banishment was justified. Let me tell you Bud, I ain’t satisfied, and let me tell you just why his complaint is just dead relevant to the NPOV request on this Wiki discussion.

In the main BrahmaKumaris.info discussion thread Avyakt7 was involved in, Ex-l typically starts muck raking through the web and mocking the guy with a link to a poker site he has contributed to. No censure there it seems, yet Avyakt7 tells us he got censured because he addressed Ex-l as 195.82.106.244 in a subsequent post.

Now to me that’s just pointing out that he reckons he knows Ex-l from another site under another annonymous id. No identity threat there, not even insult. But what happens, the guy not only gets his post censored, he gets barred completely. Talkabout bud, your alarm bells otta be ringing loud and clear, there’s an urgent need for an NPOV and very strong warning on this site now. If you’re still not getting it, let me tell you just why.

Avykat7 was bang on with 195.82.106.244 = Ex-l.

The censure and barring that followed means that 195.82.106.244 was lying to BKSimonb about his connection with Brahamkumaris.info.

There is a very pretty cosy connection between Ex-l and his forum administrator, who you Talkabout bud, seem to think is the user Brahmakumaris.info on this wiki discussion.

Anyone can see from Ex-l’s posts that he spends most of his waking life looking for ways to discredit the bk/anyone associated with the bk.

See you’re real concerned about identity’s being legitimate in this discussion group. So you just go right ahead and check out avyakt7=searchin man with the wiki’s sockpuppet detection guys and if you’ve really no connection with the BrahmaKumaris.info site, then do us all favour and get 195.82.106.244=Brahmakumaris.info checked same time.

Sincerely --searchin man 17:44, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Godly Intellectual Property.

In order to illustrate the Wikipedia article on the BKWSU, we propose to reference original teaching posters as inspired and authenticated by God Shiva and Brahma Baba.

We have listed the following images but these require a correct copyright to be assigned to them. This raises an interesting dilemma ;

  • Who owns the copyright to God's works or God's versions? Are they covered by limited, proprietory licenses or are they open and unlimited?

To our minds, the answer has to be no one. They must surely be in the public domain, or Copyleft, as they have been given freely by God, and Prajapita, to humanity in order that eacha nd every individuall may use them to earn their own inheritance. In a sense, God Shiva appears to support the GNU 'General Public License' principle.

Following on from this ;

  • What is the accredited creation date for The Cycle, The Ladder, The Trimurti, and the Lakshmi and Narayan concepts?

Presumably the individual artists gave over their personal rights to the images, as the ideas were not theirs in the first place, but perhaps you can clarify what rights Shiva Baba - or the BKWSU - exert over Godly Intellectual Property in your role in the Global IT Team.

  • Lastly, if possible, we would like to give proper credit to the original artists.

We await your advises with concern.

Thank you.

Brahmakumaris.info 15:22, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Anonymity, Cults and personal attacks.

User Riveros11 or Avyakt7 enters into this discussion have been allegedly kicked off a discussion forum. He had allegedly been attempting to reveal personal information about another person he had dug off the internet in a menacing manner, presumably intended to win an argument.

As a cult member of this group we are documenting, immediately he commences exactly the strategy attacking me and attempting to connect me with this other individual. Obviously, a strategy of intimidation used by Cults like the Scientologist to frighten individuals off from revealing their truths to the public eye, he now engages a 'buddy' to help him.

The Wikipedia protects individuals and encourages discussion. Its official policy is "no personal attacks" and within personal attacks is stated, "Threats or actions which expose other Wikipedia editors to political, religious or other persecution by government, their employer or any others. Violations of this sort may result in a block for an extended period of time which may be applied immediately by any sysop upon discovery". So, in line with policy, I am formaly requesting you to decist from personal attacks and to remove any smears, allegations or confusions you are attacking me with.

As an example of which, I would like to illustrate. Riveros11 or Avyakt7 has an issue with Destruction and Transformation. If we take his user names, those subjects and his known affiliation with this cult and put them into Google, within a few steps it reveals

  • his proper name
  • his place of work
  • his department and position [or at least a recent one]
  • his professional qualifications
  • two telephones
  • work email address
  • his degree of involvement with the BKWSU

Within a few steps, one is about 70% on the way to identity theft.

Now, given the current state of tension, fear and security paranoia within the USA; BKWSU teacher Avyakt7 writes on more than on forum, "We, will destroy our planet. We have the means to do it now. Our technology “know how” have created the bombs. Many countries have them. The bombs will be used". Now, it is also policy that, "membership of an organization does not prohibit an indivdual from contributing". But from this, we could easily say Avyakt7 to be;

  • a recruiting leader of an extremist Eastern cult involved in psychic channelling and mind control
  • a cult that believes in the destruction of free society and that it is agent to destroying free society
  • a leader who demands total surrender of mnd, body and wealth
  • a leader that teaches that "the world is a haystack ... it will burn" to "make Heaven on Earth" for his 900,000 virgin followers
  • a group that operates numerous fronts and is infiltrating politics and power internationally
  • cult members of whom chop and change representing these various fronts in public

You can see how a malicious individual could use such easily gleaned personal information in a personal attack. Now, obviously, I have deliberately constructed an extreme scenario here - even if the citations are there to support it - but what does the general public really know about what is going on inside the mind of Raja Yoga / BKWSU? What even do the neophyte followers know?

I suggest that if we meet in the Wikipedia, we observe the Wiki's policies. When in Rome ... and all that. 195.82.106.244 13:41, 29 August 2006 (UTC)


Personal Attacks and NPOV

info@brahmakumaris.info wrote:

To: avyakt7@yahoo.com Subject: Suspension From: info@brahmakumaris.info Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 06:21:03 +0100

Hello avyakt7,

The following is an email sent to you by bbsysop via your account on BrahmaKumaris.Info.

Message sent to you follows 20:57, 30 August 2006 (UTC)20:57

Your membership has been suspended and this matter referred to the moderators in order that they come to a decision. Although general guidelines are in place, it is new and voluntary forum and so this might take a few days. No policy regarding the suspensions or banning of individuals was ever invisaged as being necessary amongst Brahmin souls.

If you are willing to follow the guidelines, and can avoid the tendency to make personal attacks, you are welcome to continue to post. If you inspect the forum, you will realize that 3 or 4 separate topics on Destruction, dating back to May, have been combined together as part of regular pruning.

Thank you.

This is the email I received from "ex-i" AKA bbsysop AKA admin AKA .244 "Ex-i" deleted my greeting in my last post. The greeting was "Dear 195.82.106.244" and then Greetings! After I wrote an email where I typed "195.82.106.244" about 10 times to address him.... He decided to drop my account without previous warning. After that, He "pruned" what I shared deleting posts not suitable for him.

I recall the one where I demonstrated that Poincare's theory is not in contradiction with the second law, as he has stated. I showed him a document which I researched for the last 3 years. He has never showed me a logical argument to counteract it. Moreover, the fact that this article was erased by wikipedia editors it does not diminish its validity, considering that this article is about cyclical time which is a subject which is not even dealt with by western scientists.. and of course, a college Kid with a degree is not the most qualified person to judge in 20 minutes something which has taken some years to understand. (the Ocean of Knowledge is very deep.)

I apologize for such a lenghty document to explain the incidents. I have explained to "ex-i" AKA "195.82.106.244" that "destruction" and "transformation" are not contradictory. Shiva's knowledge is not "linear" it is paradoxical. There will be destruction. God Shiva has never released a date for it. However, destruction as per "the end" never happens, it is a "transformation" because everything is eternal but changes through "time." (time is also a paradox) This is spiritual knowledge. Depending on the stress that I want to give to my articles I will use "destruction" or "transformation." Please see, that either term is correct to be used. I have explained this to "ex-i" so many times and he keeps on bringing this issue up.

I have no problem in releasing my identity. As a matter of fact, I respond my emails with my real name in it... unlike: 195.82.106.244 and others who are hiding under an IP or a fake name. If you hide, you are afraid. Are you afraid of what? Brahmakumaris.info are you afraid of my posts? I am a Brahmin and I have never called names to anyone or treated anyone disrespectfully. I will be more than happy to discuss "my science" (as 195.82.106.244 calls it) with any of you in that forum. EX-BKs writing an article by themselves about Brahma Kumaris are not qualified to do so because they have a bias vision. This is rational, logical to see. 195.82.106.244 negativity and bad feelings towards BK is evident; however, he will not understand that. I guess it is his role....

BTW, I don't know who "searchin man" is but I truly appreciate his support. NPOV is needed in this article. I propose to have one person from every position (ie. BK, Ex-BK, PBK, etc.) to be the representative for their division. Once the whole article is written as every party would like to see it here, then it could be discussed and decided among the representatives. Without this kind of "democracy" there will not be a consensus.

Best Wishes.

Avyakt7 AKA Riveros11 --72.91.28.223 20:57, 30 August 2006 (UTC)


Listen Bud, the way I see it, the best way to present a balanced non-biased description of your organisation on this wiki page is to contact some of the academics who have seriously studied the bk. See the Bibliography for some examples.
These people are completely impartial, and already have some depth of analysis of the evolution of the movement. An official representative of the bk like bkSimonb, could then work with them to fill in any gaps since they last studied you. Far as I can see that’s the only way you can really put a permanent brake on the most bitter and twisted element of the xBK running riot as they’ve obviously been doing.
Sincerely --searchin man 22:51, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Prediction of Nuclear & Civil War, the 900,000, self-belief in being Angels etc

It must be noted that the BKWSU goes to great length to hide or refuse access to their inner teaching and is engaged in a process of re-writing them. However, far too much remains in the public domain to make this successful. The following references are not exhaustive or full detailed but significant enough to remove any doubt in a third party. A Sakar Murli is considered by the BKWSU to be the authentic word of God where no other scripture is. It is said by the BKWSU to be God himself speaking through the medium of Lekhraj Kirpalani. An Avyakt Murli is said to be the combined form of a dead Lekhraj Kirpalani and God Shiva speaking through the channel or medium of BK Gulzar. The scriptures are the highest authories within BKWSU teachings, excuding the Murli team that re-writes them to suit the time and the Global PR team that publically denies them.

  • Nuclear War

The following links offer a direct and easily verifiable creference of BKWSU teachings of the destruction of a Nuclear War between Russia and America. Brahma Baba, the medium of Shiva Baba and founder of the BKWSU, had so much of faith in this predication that he signed such picture a declaration was made by the institution and images sent out to the Government of India and other dignitaries notifying them of the coming Destruction of the World and the establishment of Heaven. One can see clearly at the top two cats with human heads wearing military hats. One Russian with the Hammer and Sickle Red Flag, the other American with the Stars and Stripes. These images remain at the organisations Indian headquarters.

See; http://www.brahmakumaris.info/w/uploads//5/51/Catsandtree.jpg, http://www.brahmakumaris.info/w/uploads//f/f2/Cycle_and_Trimurti_A4.jpg

"Look! The Science-Proud European Yadavas will destroy one and other in this internaional Atomic War (Mahabharata) like 5,000 years ago"

http://www.brahmakumaris.info/w/uploads//2/2d/Tree.jpg and "Adi Dev" by Jagdish Chander referenced in article.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6471058539715764200&q=Brahma+Kumaris Google Video clip of BKWSU promotion video including Destruction/Nuclear war.

  • Civil war ;

http://www.brahmakumaris.info/w/index.php?title=Sakar_Murli_2003/09/01_Revised http://www.brahmakumaris.info/w/uploads//1/13/Lakshmi_and_Narayan_A4.jpg

and from the BKWSU own website

" Dada also saw how the death came slower through wars and civil wars, culminating in an awesome wave of natural catastrophes: floods and tidal waves, earthquakes of every kind wreaking havoc on the scarred face of the earth. Dada began to tremble uncontrollably upon witnessing the scenes of this great world wide destruction. Humans and animals were running wildly about, trying to save their lives, to escape from the jaws of death. But there was no escape. The wail of horror, the rivers of blood and pus, the panic and the desperation, and then, the final death."

  • Population of Golden Age is 900,000 ;

"All become worthy of claiming a right to liberation-in-life, but there is so much difference between the 8 jewels, the 108 victorious jewels, the 16,000 and then the 900,000. There is a rosary of 16,000 and also of 108. In the 108, there are also the eight special ones. All become beads of the rosary. Both types would be called beads. Even the beads of the rosary of 16,000 will say in happiness and intoxication: My Baba and my kingdom. The difference is between claiming a right to the royal throne or a royal status, a right to the royal family and a right to being in connection with the royal family."

http://www.brahmakumaris.info/w/index.php?title=Avyakt_Murli_2001/01/26_Revised http://www.brahmakumaris.info/w/uploads//9/97/Ladder_A4.jpg http://www.brahmakumaris.info/w/index.php?title=Avyakt_Murli_2003/01/18_Revised.

It would be interesting to request a copy of BK Dadi Janki's 2006 class stating that the 900,000 would be ready this year.

  • Only BK Raja Yoga followers going to heaven ;

" Baba has said: At the time of destruction, those whose intellect has no love will be destroyed. All of them will be destroyed and only you will remain to claim victory. You are establishing a kingdom. "

  • Only religious group to have God teaching them direct ;

" The Supreme Soul Himself says: I enter this one's body (Lakhraj Kirpalani) in which his own soul is also present. I enter him ... It is only to the children who have become Brahmins that the Father speaks. He would not tell anyone else. He only loves His children"

http://www.brahmakumaris.info/w/index.php?title=Sakar_Murli_2004/05/06_Revised

" Om Shanti. The Spiritual Father (Shiva) sits here and explains to you spiritual children (BKs) ... He says: O children, I have incarnated in this one (Lekhraj Kirpalani) and, through him, I tell you the secrets ... Only the one Father (Shiva Baba) explains this. The path of devotion has been nothing but a waste of time. ... Baba now explains: Those worldly gurus do not grant you salvation. Only the one Father (Shiva Baba) leads you to salvation ... "

http://www.brahmakumaris.info/w/index.php?title=Sakar_Murli_2003/01/22_Revised

  • External donations; actually I agree. We need evidence to prove the BKWSU have EVER given any money to any one else or else that should be removed.
  • Avoiding controversial issues ; see comparison of Indian and Internal website as referenced in topic, Also typcial statement by Global Chief of PR and MultiMedia, B.K. Karuna in Moscow Times August 8th, 2006 issue, stating that;s

“The university once taught that the current age, or cycle, would end in nuclear war between the Soviet Union and the United States. This teaching was dropped after the fall of the Soviet Union, said Brother Karuna Shebby, the organization’s chief spokesman, said by telephone from the group’s Mount Abu headquarters in the Indian state of Rajasthan.”

in contradiction to teachings of destruction and nuclear war referenced above. http://brahmakumaris.info/blog/?p=100

  • World population 5,500,000 ; actually this has gone up from 5 Billion, to 5.5 and now 6 Billion as the Sakar Murlis have been re-edited by the BK Murli Team.

See treaching poster referenced above. " Population of at the end of Iron Age 500 crore " Bottom of http://www.brahmakumaris.info/w/uploads//9/97/Ladder_A4.jpg.

  • Rape by partner of BK because BK refused sex ; please check reference with BK Dr Nirmala in Australia, I refuse to name names in such a personal case.
  • Child sex abuse at BKWSU Indian Headquaters ( Madhuban and Dehli at least) ; please check reference with BK Jayanti or Janki in UK, I refuse to name names in such a personal case.
  • Destruction of World in 1975-6 ;

"Destgruction of viscious Iron age World in 10 years" ; http://www.brahmakumaris.info/w/uploads//9/97/Ladder_A4.jpg [ published in 1960s ]

  • Becoming worship worthy Gods ;

" you Brahmins are the highest, the top-knot. Only these Confluence Aged Brahmins become deities. First of all, the Brahmins are even higher than the deities. The top-knot is the highest. You brahmins worship the deities, and you consider yourselves to be worshippers and them to be worthy of worship. You can explain this to those worshipper-priest brahmins in the temples. You are the true Confluence Aged Brahmins. You are the mouth-born creation of Brahma. You are now becoming deities."

"This donation and charity performed in a second through a powerful stage will make you worthy of being worshipped and remembered for half the Cycle."

http://www.brahmakumaris.info/w/index.php?title=Sakar_Murli_2003/02/07_Revised

"Then, in terms of being worthy of worship, your worship is so great. No righteous soul or great soul is worshipped in the right way like you deity souls are. "

http://www.brahmakumaris.info/w/index.php?title=Avyakt_Murli_2004/02/04_Revised

  • Becoming worship worthy Angels ;

"When Destruction takes place, they will understand that God has come. Then, those to whom you gave the message will remember: Who were those angels dressed in white? You also see angels in the subtle region, do you not?" - http://www.brahmakumaris.info/w/index.php?title=Sakar_Murli_2004/05/05_Revised

"You cannot experience sorrow by this great Destruction because you become angels. " - http://www.brahmakumaris.info/w/index.php?title=Sakar_Murli_2003/09/01_Revised

" Then, at the final moments, you angels are guaranteed to become deities. If you want to become like the Father, then the Father is incorporeal and an angel. To become like Father Brahma means to stay in the angelic stage." - http://www.brahmakumaris.info/w/index.php?title=Avyakt_Murli_2003/01/18_Revised

"The Father is now once again creating the land of angels. " - http://www.brahmakumaris.info/w/index.php?title=Sakar_Murli_2003/06/07_Revised

  • Heidi Fittkau-Garthe ; see the references already given below article ...
* Self belief as Angels
" The consciousness is that "I am a Brahmin who is going to become an angel' ... Now bring that consciousness in a practical form ... When giving visions of your angelic form you should make a special plan to make the service through the mind more powerful. Together with words, it is service through the mind that will enable the message to reach very far away. Just as nowadays, flying saucers are seen, so too, your angelic form will be visible all around and there will be the sound emerging, "Who are these beings who are circling all around?' People will begin to research into this and will have visions of you coming down from above. They should realize that it is these Brahma Kumars and Brahma Kumaris who are giving visions of the angelic form. You should now create such an upheaval. You should practice taking your subtle body on a tour. At the present time, it is most essential that you practice traveling with your internal subtle body. You should practice this so that everyone is able to see this in a practical form and everyone comes together. Others should experience that These are the same angels who came to us.' They should start searching around for these angels. If so many of you all begin to circle around like angels, then what will happen? Everyone's attention will automatically be drawn. So now, together with the corporeal form, it is essential to serve in the subtle form. In the early morning hours of Nectar, you should become detached from your body and you should circle around this way." Avyakt Murli 22/2/84 195.82.106.244 04:01, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
  • OM Mandali banned by Hindu pressure during Partition; [5], [6], [7]
  • Not accepting donations from Shudra souls ; "The organisation neither solicits nor accepts funds from others for activities that relate to the internal running of the organisation ..." from [8]. The element about Shudra's, [i.e. non-BKs] being impure will have to come from a Murli which will take a little longer. Note, BKs could actually help this proceed faster if they were to be honest rather than whitewash the truth.

OK. I will take a break there. I am not avoiding answering any of the other requests for references or citation. I just think the denial and supression of BKWSU teacher and supporters is becoming increasing silly and that the burden of proof is clear. Actually by attempting to deny and suppress the factual truths about your organization and beliefs you are broadcasting them far wider. Perhaps this is how you want to do service ... I am happy to help.

What you BKWSU teachers and supporters should realise, if that the secrecy and cover up game is over. The internet is going to reveal you for what you are. Indeed, God Shiva has predicted this himself ( ... do you want a citation? We can provide it).

  • So, your homework if you should so wish to accept it is to go away and find out the financial figures for how much and how often your organization has donated of its own money to causes outside of itself to alleviate poverty. The papers I have seen say ZERO. Thanks. 195.82.106.244 04:43, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Serious lack of citations

This article, in accordance with wikipedia policies, much like the BK predict of the world, could be 90% wiped away. There are many, many facts claimed and almost no refferences. If no one adds refferences, it will eventually be paired down. Sethie 01:37, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Serious lack of reading previous citations given and archive

Hi Sethie.

I removed the citation notice from the BKWSU topic as it not required. If you want to raise specific questions, please first read throught the discussion archive and quoted references. Then, where there is serious lack of citations that has not been covered, raise here in detail first where they will be answered.

It is not at all clear whether your objections are philosophical, i.e. that this is not orthodox Hinduism, or specific to the BKs. If they are specific to the BKs, it would help to know what your knowledge of them is based on.

Frankly, given that your comment comes after a page of "easily checkable" references in line with Wiki policy, I must admit that your action has made a negative impression. Let's discuss this first. If your POV is on a passing acquaintance or mutual self interest, be cautious.

Thanks. 195.82.106.244 12:54, 28 September 2006 (UTC)