Talk:BrahMos

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This may not count as verifiable fact, but it's something of interest I was told by engineers at the Aero-India 2003 airshow, where there was a BrahMos exhibit: that the range of Brahmos has been officially limited at the interesting boundary of 290 km, because it allows Russian cooperation in the programme without being hindered by MTCR limitations.

The Russian Federation is party to the Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR), which aims at controlling the proliferation of nuclear capable ballistic missiles, including dual use missile technology. A nuclear capable ballistic missile was defined by the protocol as one capable of delivering at least 500 kg to '300' km; BrahMos' range is just below that, allowing the Russians to transfer technology without technically violating the treaty. BrahMos' stated warhead is also, of course, seemingly much lower than the lower limit prescribed by the MTCR, which might weaken the credibility of what this engineer told me; however, 290 is interestingly short of 300 km. It might suggest a missile design left open to future 'upgrades', both in range and, possibly, in warhead size. -- Rahul Nayar

Globalsecurity.org thinks there's something to that story also; see the updated article for a reference. I wouldn't be surprised if they build a longer-range version in the future as well. --Robert Merkel 07:36, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] ramjet

i noticed that there's no mention in the article of the fact that the missile employs a ramjet. considering that i linked to the article from the ramjet article, i think it should have at least some mention of ramjet propulsion used by the missile.--Alhutch 09:27, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Be bold and make the edit, then. --Robert Merkel 12:39, 12 December 2005 (UTC)


[edit] Eliminated Features Section

It was taken verbatim from two of the listed sources Azureprophet 04:43, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

"capable of covering targets over a 360 degree horizon". What that supposed to mean? - --124.82.15.15 14:46, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

I believe that means that you can fire it one direction, and it can turn around right after launch and fly 290 km in the opposite direction. -NorsemanII 05:45, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Copyedit

This article, or a portion of it, was copyedited by the League of Copyeditors in February 2007. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks.

[edit] High speed and damage

From the article: "The high speed of the BrahMos enables it to inflict more damage than slower cruise missiles such as the Tomahawk."

How is this conclusion reached? To my knowledge, this is not a kinetic energy weapon, but rather relies on high explosive payload to inflict damage. The Tomahawk missile used in the comparison carries a larger payload. --Clarkcol 18:48, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Since the Brahmos is basically an Anti-ship missile, at higher speeds, it will be able to penetrate the ship's hull more, and when it detonates, will cause much greater damage than a subsonic missile.

It relies on both KE & warhead to do the damage. Probably multiple subsonic missile hits are needed to create the damage of a single Mach 3 supersonic missile.--60.243.161.52 12:17, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

The Brahmos has a semi-armor piercing warhead. That means that it is designed to pierce through the hull and detonate, which would ensure total destruction. Also, in any AShM (as in many others), Kinetic Energy plays a big role in ensuring kills, especially since otherwise, it would take a lot of explosive to do the same damage. Without any KE, it would really amount to something like a HESH round (on Tanks), which would not really cause too much damage. Look at the Falklands war, where the Exocets did some considerable damage, but still failed to sink boats in many cases. But even what kinetic energy they had was devastating, especially with the HMS Sheffield.
Doing a small calculation, the Exocet weighs 700 kg and flies at Mach 0.9. The Brahmos weighs 3000 kg and travels at mach 2.8. From KE = 1/2 * m * v^2. By that token, Brahmos has 4 * 3^2 = 36 times the Kinetic energy of the Exocet. Added to that is the larger warhead. Sniperz11 14:52, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Claiming that the BrahMos inflicts greater damage than a Tomahawk is... Amusing. Either remove that bit or change 'Tomahawk' to 'Harpoon' (In which case the claim would be correct).

Lets do the math:

KE(t) = 1440 kg / 2 x 245 m/s^2 = 43218000 Joules (Lets call it a round 43 megajoules).

KE(b) = 3000 kg / 2 x 645 m/s^2 = 624037500 Joules (Around 624 megajoules).

BrahMos' ahead. Alas, we're not yet done here.

Now for the explosive yield. I can't find the exact yield of RDX (Only the detonation velocity), but if the latter is anything to go by, it should be about 25% more powerful than TNT, which (The TNT) I'll use for now. Needless to say, the in-use explosive being more powerful than TNT would give the missile with the larger warhead a greater advantage.

CE(t) = 500 kg x 4186000 J/kg = 2093000000 J (About 2 gigajoules).

CE(b) = 300 kg x 4186000 J/kg = 1255800000 J (About 1.2 gigajoules).

Simple additions get us total yields for the

Tomahawk: ~ 2.1 GJ

BrahMos: ~ 1.8 GJ

Tomahawk's ahead.

Now, the point has been raised that the higher KE will help the BrahMos to penetrate a target. This is, of course, correct - Unfortunately, modern warships have... Not alot of armour. The only existing & in-service target you'd need this level of KE for would be a supercarrier (This said, there's alternative, less expensive ways to achive the same). But against any other target, the increased KE will have no significant effect, simply because penetration would occur at much lower velocities, too. And once penetration is achived, the bigger warhead wins.

What the BrahMos can do with its higher speed is putting pressure on a target - needing less than eight minutes to its target provides an advantage, albeit at the likely disadvantage of having the IR signature of a volcano.

In any case. Summary: The BrahMos does not inflict greater damage than the Tomahawk. In fact, the opposite is the case. However, its high speed should easily allow it to be more successful at penetrating the defensive perimeter of an opponent, simply by virtue of reducing their reaction time, as well as due to being harder to hit.

Oh, and the HMS Sheffield example provided above is, erm, incorrect - the Sheffield wasn't sunk by KE, it was sunk because the remaining fuel of the Exocet was ignited all at once - hence why the ship was suddenly on fire, as opposed to just having a big hole in it, which, while annoying, wouldn't sink it. This is, after all, why we're still putting warheads on our missiles, as opposed to using concrete-tipped ones. Aka Hoshi Rezo 08:49, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

I had a chance to speak to a BrahMos engineer about this very fact, about whether the KE helps at all. His point was simple... you need KE to penetrate the hull, which is quite a bit on well armored ships or carriers. Once it penetrates the hull, this ensures that the warhead explodes inside the ship, where the confined spaces will multiply the destructive effect of the warhead, and totally destroy the target. This same effect will not happen for the slower missiles, which will detonate on the hull. Even if it happens, it would be only for smaller boats, not the larger ones like the destroyers and Carriers that the Brahmos is designed to target. After all, you cant expect a single hit from a Harpoon or exocet to finish off a Nimitz, but a BrahMos can. T/@Sniperz11editssign 01:05, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Brahmos Land attack role

Can we use the same Anti-Ship missile for land targets? didn't they develop an LACM version which has probably different kind of terminal guidance? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 60.243.161.52 (talk • contribs) 12:19, Jun 27, 2007 (UTC).

The only difference between the B-AShM and B-LACM versions is the seeker. The LACM has/will have a GPS seeker, while the AShM version has a radar seeker. Only difference between the two. They cant attack targets of the other type (At least at present), but can do pretty much everything else, including two missiles of different types being launched from the same launcher. T/@Sniperz11editssign 01:05, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Incorrect calculations

If it has 2 times the mass and 4 times the velocity of a tomahawk. It should have 32 times the KE and not 16 as the article states. --Weedrat 11:41, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Chronology table

No Date Test range/Platform Version Service Notes
1 June 12, 2001 Chandipur-on-sea -
2
3
4
5
6
7 14 June 2004 Chandipur-on-sea [1]
8
9
10 21 December 2004 Pokhran Land to land version Indian Army
11 1 December 2005 Chandipur-on-sea Land to sea version Indian Army [2]
12 1 June 2006 Pokhran
13 4 February 2007 Chandipur-on-sea
14
15 5th March 2008

[edit] BrahMos vs Brahmo (Brahmo Samaj)

There was a problem a few days ago with this page, with some problem edits by User:Ronosen (talk), who redirected Brahmos from BrahMos to Brahmo, and added text to "Distinguish" BrahMos from Brahmo Samaj. I have added a redirect template text at the beginning of the page to point this out, and hope that will be the end of the matter.

Ronosen contacted me about this edit and I explained the rationale for it. Additionally, I am also creating this section for any public discussion on this issue. Please remember, Dont bite the newbie. T/@Sniperz11editssign 01:05, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Dear Sniperz11, Thanks for your help, advice. We shall try our best to bring Brahmo upto acceptable wiki standards. Please keep checking that page every 2 days or so and post on the Talk page there. Actually there is a distinction between Brahmo(s) and Brahmo Samaj. Brahmos refers to adherents (members) of the Brahmo Religion whereas Brahmo Samaj refers to "followers" of the Brahmo Samaj (qv. Hindu Code 1955). So whereas all Brahmos are Brahmo Samajis, the reverse is not necessarily true, and which is why Brahmo and Brahmo Samaj cannot be merged and in fact will differ at certain places. However, this has nothing to do with the BrahMos missile and I foresee a disambigunation page for Brahmos sometime in the future. Cheers. Ronosen (talk) 08:47, 21 March 2008 (UTC)