Talk:Bradford/Archive 1

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This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Contents 1 Merge 2 Poor BCFC 3 German is better 4 Vandalism 5 Railways 6 Alsop Image 7 medway minutes 8 Things to Consider 9 Formation of Bradford 10 Twin Towns 11 Unitary authority? 12 Cosmopolitan, Nightlife 13 The Bradford Sweet Poisoning of 1858 14 Cathedral and churches 15 Dubious Bradfordians 16 Question. 17 Geography project 18 Origin of Name 19 Synagogue 20 References

Merge

The Merge of this page with City of Bradford is under discussion at Wikipedia:WikiProject UK Subdivisions --Tagishsimon

German pageis better than the English one.

Poor BCFC

Like the bit about "Less successful BCFC". leave that. And what do you mean "German page is better than the English one"? That's crap.--Crestville 21:53, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)

German is better

It is true, the German page has some interesting info missing from the English page: A Nobel Laureate from Bradford, the band New Model Army, and much, much more. Since I speak German I might get around to updating both the German and the English language versions to improve both. rquinn 21:17, Dec 20, 2004 (UTC)

Vandalism

I've removed some vandalism by Crestville referring to Frank Stott and Brendan Lalor (I'm sure it's funny to the vandal), but 212.111.154.251 also changed the ethnic minority population percentage from 19% to 36%. I have no idea if this is correct or not, but this is the only contribution made by this IP and they don't cite sources. Anyone know the correct stat? (I did a quick search but nothing came up that I could see). Meesham 15:11, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The National Audit Office is the best place to find this out:

http://neighbourhood.statistics.gov.uk/AreaProfileFrames.asp?TID=13&AREA=Bradford&AID=175558

The non-white population is 21.7% Ninebelow 15:34, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Railways

I find it quite incredible that such an important place on the Metro (West Yorkshire) scheme of things has nothing whatsoever on its article about transport: there is precious little about its Geography anyway! And as for History .... Its links with Leeds and much else in West Yorkshire deserves better than this!!!! Peter Shearan 18:48, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)

It does now. I added a transport section in Nov 2005. ColinFine 14:18, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

Good work, much improved. Don't stop there ;-) MGSpiller 21:31, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Alsop Image

The image of the proposed Alsop regeneration plan has been deleted. A notice has been on the talk page of the uploader since Feb & there has been no response so it could well have been copyrighted. Has anyone taken a picture of the model themselves which they would be prepared to upload?MGSpiller 00:32, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

medway minutes

The reference is supposed to help explain why this article, while about the urban area of Bradford, which most people would expect to be the city, is not in fact a city at all while the City of Bradford article about the metropolitan/municiple district is the article about the entity with city status. I've lived here 80% of my life & until I spent half an hour following links round 'pedia I didn't understand that point.MGSpiller 01:10, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Things to Consider

(I've moved this section to the end, as Talk pages are usually newest last.)

I believe that Bradford college seems to be associated with Leeds Uni now and not Bradford Uni. The college seem to be going through a re-branding exercise.

You're half right: it's Leeds Met (not Leeds Uni), according to their web page. I'll correct it. ColinFine 23:42, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Also, regarding the canal / beck, I've heard that there are plans to re-open this (again) as part of the face-lift / redevelopment projects that are going on in the city centre.

This is mentioned at Bradford Canal, but not on the main Bradford page. I'll add something.ColinFine 23:42, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Formation of Bradford

(Subtitle inserted after the discussion had gone on some time ColinFine 19:11, 21 May 2007 (UTC))

I read somewhere that Bradford wasn't formed in the way that most cities are. e.g they tend to grow from the middle outwards. Instead, the city centre was formed because of the growth and merging of (I think three) other areas. I don't know the terminology for a city formed this way, but there is one. Very loose on facts, sorry, but if you're dedicated to writing about Bradford I think these points could be included.

I don't think so: the centre formed around the church (now the cathedral) and spread. It did later swallow several separate townships (Bowling, Great and Little Horton etc) but I don't think that's unusual. Please provide a reference. ColinFine 23:42, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure that the first comment is correct; the original town of Bradford (before it became a city) was formed by the merging of the townships of Manningham, Bradford and Horton. This ^[1] is the nearest I can find to a reference right now but I'm busy; I'm sure someone can find better.Scribblin' Simon 12:53, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

OK, I think we're at cross purposes. The borough of Bradford was formed in 1847 from the four townships of Bradford, Horton, Manningham and Bowling. ^[2]. It may be that this is an unusual way for a city to be formed. I thought the original claim was talking about the original growth of Bradford township.

Incidentally, don't use double brackets ([[...]]) for external references - use single brackets, and separate the URL from the text by a space. In any case I've turned your link above into a <ref> like the other references. The page you linked to doesn't seem to be there at the moment, however. --ColinFine 19:11, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Twin Towns

The French and German articles on Bradford helpfully list the twin towns - but the lists don't agree. --Alan 19:14, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

According to http://www.communigate.co.uk/brad/btta/, which says it is the website of the Bradford Twin Towns Association, "In 1970, when the Mayor of Roubaix initiated contact between Roubaix (France) and Verviers (Belgium) with Bradford to be followed in 1971 by Monchengladbach (Germany). Skopje (Macedonia) is a more distant but none-the-less important fourth Twin Town.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/bradford/content/image_galleries/alt_art_gallery.shtml says (below a photo of the "Hammstrasse" street sign in Bradford) "Hamm in Germany is Bradford's twin town...But that's not all. We've spotted some strange new 'kids' on the Bradford block. The work of artist Otmar Alt, they too are from Hamm. Take a look!". It is one of a number of sites which claim this. But another article on the same site says "A very popular artist in Germany, Otmar Alt now lives in Shipley's twin town, Hamm, situated in the North Rhine-Westphalia region of Germany.", which I think is correct.

At http://www.bradford.gov.uk/life_in_the_community/twin_towns_and_villages/, which I guess should be authoratitive, It lists "

• Galway, Ireland - twinned 1987
• Mirpur District Council, Azad Kashmir, Pakistan – friendship agreement 1998
• Mönchengladbach, Germany – twinned 1971
• Roubaix, France – twinned 1969
• Skopje, Republic of Macedonia – twinned 1963
• Verviers, Belgium – twinned 1970".

I have updated the main article accordingly. I have added a note about Hamm, as it is so often claimed wrongly to be the twin. I have maintained an entry on Timsa, because I have found a couple of newspaper articles referring to it, but I have removed the material about the Sandanistas, as unverifiable: if anybody has references for that, feel free to put it back.

I have removed Varna as I can find no evidence whatever of this link. ColinFine 23:09, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

I've also updated the relevant section in the German Wikipedia ColinFine 23:43, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

I have also removed Bradford from the twin towns in the Varna article. ColinFine 08:37, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

I have added Hamm again, after contacting the city government of Hamm. The bureau of the major (Oberbürgermeister) confirmed the twining of Bradford and Hamm in 1976, for further informations you can contact the city government of Hamm under the e-mail: info@stadt.hamm.de or via the main Homepage of Hamm (www.hamm.de).

Greetings --82.83.253.200 19:37, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Interesting. If I read it correctly (my German isn't that good) http://www.hamm.de/445_3546.html says that in 1969 Hamm partnered with Shipley, but in 1976 it entered a twinning with Bradford. But http://www.bradford.gov.uk/life_in_the_community/twin_towns_and_villages/ definitely puts the Hamm relationship under Shipley-Hamm Twinning Association.

Also note that the photograph for 'Bradford' on http://www.hamm.de/445.html appears to be of Shipley town hall (see the photo on http://www.shipley-hamm.com).

These facts taken together seem to me to imply that Hamm is indeed twinned with Shipley, but prefers to advertise the prominent city of Bradford rather than the unknown town of Shipley as its partner. But I admit that they are somewhat contradictory. --ColinFine 01:40, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Maybe, maybe not or maybe baby?! It is a bit of a Problem. Uwe Sauerland of the bureau of the Oberbürgermeister Hunsteger-Petermann has given the answer to my request last December and told me that they have some older brochure about the hole business. You may contact them yourself "info@stadt.hamm.de". I haven't the time yet to check it by contacting the local government of Shipley and Bradford. But I will! Greetings --82.83.238.124 00:57, 10 January 2007 (UTC) Gabriel-Royce (German Wikipedia)

City of Bradford Metropolitian District Council covers both Bradford AND Shipley, however CBMDC was formed by the merger of a number of existing councils, my reading of the page is that Bradford district is twinned with all of those places by the twinning arrangments are handeled by a number of different organisations, if CBMDC ever de-merged then a decision over who Hamm would be twinned with would be made then.--ElvisThePrince 09:30, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

We will know in some days time, I hope. I have asked the CBMDC for assistance in this matter and with both the answers the one from the government in Hamm and the one of the CBMDC we should know it for certain. --82.83.191.129 19:24, 12 January 2007 (UTC) Gabriel-Royce (German Wikipedia) You can find me now here:--Gabriel-Royce 01:46, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Hello everybody, here comes the answer:

"Guten Tag!

Thank you for your recent enquiry.

I am pleased to confirm that Bradford is indeed twinned with Hamm in Germany and last year we celebrated our thirtieth anniversary. The link is a very active one and the Oberbuergermeister of Hamm marked the anniversary with a cake-cutting ceremony here in City Hall on a visit to Bradford last year.

Please allow me to clear up the confusion about the towns. Shipley (which became part of the much larger Bradford Metropolitan District Council in 1974) had originally enjoyed informal links of friendship with Hamm.

By the time a formalisation of that friendship (through twinning) was being discussed Shipley Urban District Council no longer existed as a legal entity. Therefore the twinning, in 1976, was between Bradford and Hamm but special emphasis was placed on the link with the Shipley area as this was the point from which the friendship had grown.

I hope this clears up the problem for you.

Mit freundlichen Gruessen!

Richard Lee-Van den Daele Lord Mayor's Diary Secretary Tel 01274 432283 Fax 01274 395529 richard.daele@bradford.gov.uk"

I think the Problem is solved, with this statement!--Gabriel-Royce 20:27, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Unitary authority?

The metropolitan boroughs are still districts of the metropitan counties. The Local Government Act 1985 only removed the county councils, it did not change any administrative divisions. The 1990s UK local government reform did however change the administrative divisions and created unitary authorities. The UA infobox should only be used for the latter. MRSC 10:03, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

The UA infobox correctly identifies West Yorkshire as the ceremonial county, police area, etc, alongside Yorkshire as the historic county. Giving "West Yorkshire" precedence as a "county" without any kind of qualification is misleading, to say the least.

Cosmopolitan, Nightlife

I've removed the following from the introductory section of the article: "Bradford is a very cosmopolitan city with inhabitants of all nationalities and religions. It also owns a very acitve nightlife, with pounding, pounding techno music."

I'm sure that there should be something about Bradford's cosmopolitan nature, and probably also about its nightlife. But I'm also sure that this is not it! ColinFine 21:55, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

We got our first Starbucks this year. True.--Crestville 22:24, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

The Bradford Sweet Poisoning of 1858

Can anyone help me? I don't know what to so with this. I want to write about the famous incident in 1858 in which seventeen people died and 200 or so others were taken ill after eating peppermint lozanges accidently adulterated with arsnic. At the time it was commonplace for food to be adulterated (for example chalk would be mixed with flour, etc) and sugar was often mixed with "daft" (plaster of paris) to make the sweets heavier. The sweets were sold in Bradford market, having been purchased from a sweetshop in the town. The sweetshop owner obtained the plaster of paris from a druggist (Mr Hodgson - a possible relation of mine) from Shipley, who was ill that day. He sent a young employee to get the plaster of paris but he accidently used arsenic. Each lozange contained enough arsnic to kill two people.

I think this is a facinating peice of our history and led to legislation banning the adulteration of goods. however, I'm not sure if it warrents its own article of where I could fit it into this one. Until that point, here are two accounts for anyone interested. [1] [2]--Crestville 20:42, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Sounds to me as if it merits an article of its own. Be bold! Write it - if somebody doesn't agree, they can always fold it into the main article. ColinFine 08:48, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

What should I call it?

What about The Bradford Sweet Poisoning- Chris Q 13:26, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Isn't that a bit on the nose?--Crestville 15:28, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Consider it writen, my children.--Crestville 17:39, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Cathedral and churches

I am sure that the lengthy section on the history of Bradford Cathedral should be moved to that article. Would the writer of the section like to do that?

I am doubtful whether the long list of churches belongs in an encyclopaedia, but if it does, it should not be in the Bradford article. I suggest that if it's worth keeping, the various churches should be discussed in the articles for the various localities (Allerton, Baildon etc) with perhaps a 'List of Churches in Bradford' article. ColinFine 19:04, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Seconded, the section on Bradford Cathedral is longer than the cathedral article itself. There should be a summary here & the detail there. I would kind of prefer the list of churches to be a category and there to be pages about churches or groups of churches but that would be a lot of work & I'm not volunteering to do it so Colin's suggestion of putting the discussion in the various local pages is more practical. MGSpiller 00:27, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, a lot of the material on the cathedral needs to go to the article on the cathedral. I think some of the churches in Bradford are noteworthy, but I don't think the complete list is all that helpful. --194.217.194.139 18:26, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

I have removed the list of churches, together with the intended headings (they weren't syntactically headings) for other places of worship. I think a section discussing places of worship would be worthwhile, but this list is simply not appropriate for an encyclopaedia. ColinFine 18:54, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

I was going to move most of the material on the cathedral to Bradford Cathedral, but when I'd finished merging the text and was about to save it I followed the external link and found that all the text I've cut from Bradford was a copyvio anyway, so I've discarded it. I've made a stab at rewriting the Religion section here. ColinFine 19:40, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

I've taken out this piece "The Abundant Life Centre, (formerly called the Abundant Life Church) is the home of a charismatic, evangelical Christian church. The building is modern, low and unassuming, but it is visible from most of central Bradford, as it is sited high up on the eastern side of Bradfordale." There is an article on ALC elsewhere and if there isn't a list of churches, mosques etc I don't think one merits a mention in the article -there is already reference to the "House Church" movement which is historically significant <small (Be Dave 14:19, 17 April 2007 (UTC))

Dubious Bradfordians

I have just removed the following lines from the 'Notable Bradfordians' section

• Manjit Hayre*— Artist and bon viver
• Simon 'Nogsy' Nolan musician & rabble rouser
• Faith Nelson — Model

I can't find any evidence for any of these people's notability ('Manjit Hayre' and 'Faith Nelson' both give several hits on Google, but none of them seem to match).

The wording suggests very strongly to me that the first two have been inserted as a joke. I'm prepared to believe the last might be real, but in the absence of any references, I do not know why she should be notable. ColinFine 22:26, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

I hope you mean that they are "Bradfordians of dubious notability" rather than being dubious personally. I am sure that they are fine upstanding citizens. ;-) -- Q Chris 15:01, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Question.

Wasnt there a prophet/seer that said Bradford was the site of the Garden of Eden. For the life of me I've been trying to remember her name. Any one know what it was. Thanks. SimonD 08:46, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Can't help you, I'm afraid. ColinFine 18:40, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Maybe it was "Mother Shipden [Shibden?]"

There's no reference to it in Mother Shipton, and anyway she was from Knaresborough (if she existed) which is not that close to Bradford. ColinFine 18:39, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Stanley King would probably agree, if you look at his book on Heaton - with particular reference to Paradise Street. I'll check to see if there is anything meaningful.. Nick Watts 12:37, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Geography project

Many of the points in the UKgeo box are valid, and I will address some of them. But while it may be true that for "Most UK settlements [twin towns i]]s a top-level section", it isn't for the two settlements currently listed as featured articles on the project page: Sheffield has it under Government and Politics, while Bath puts it under tourism!

I do prefer transport organised by mode. I see the point about the canal, but other parts of the transport section include historical information, so I'd rather not split it on the accident of whether a mode of transport happens to exist today or not.

I'm not convinced that 'prose is better than lists', either. ColinFine 18:40, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

The UK Wikiproject Guidelines have since been revised in an attempt to start standardising some of these settlement articles (Sheffield currently does not yet conform however). Prose is considered to be better than lists for content that is best presented as such. Jhamez84 00:15, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Origin of Name

I was under the impression (based on what I remember of Ekwall's Dictionary of English Place-Names) that the name came from "braded ford" not "broad ford". Donal Fellows --130.88.195.186 09:54, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

And what is 'braded ford' supposed to mean? Anyway both Room^[3] and Firth^[2] say unequivocally that it is from Old English brad ('broad'). I haven't got Ekwall. --ColinFine 20:08, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Synagogue

I have just removed the sentence "Bradford is believed to be the only town in Britain which had a Reform synagogue before an Orthodox synagogue", added by RolandR. While it is true that quite a lot of this article is unsourced, most of it is straight facts that can easily be checked. But phrases like 'is believed to be' do not belong in Wikipedia (See Weasel words). If you have a source for this, please restore it, with references: otherwise it is not encyclopaedic. --ColinFine 10:00, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

It is a "well-known fact", but difficult to find a reliable reference for. I have cited a reference in Architectural Review, which should be available in a good library, and is online for subscribers only at JSTOR. A Google search will confirm that the source includes the statement. RolandR 20:28, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

References

Please leave this as the final section

1. ^ History of City Hall.
2. ^ ^{a b} Firth, Gary (1997). A History of Bradford. Phillimore. ISBN 1-86077-057-6. 
3. ^ Room, Adrian (1988). Bloomsbury Dictionary of Place-names in the British Isles. Bloomsbury. ISBN 0-7475-0505-5.