Talk:Brísingamen

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Contents 1 Information removal 2 Article Cleanup Co-Ordination Point 2.1 Discussion 3 Re: Christianity 4 Users with their motives 5 Sörla þattr and the Flateyjarbok 6 And suddenly Harkurth and Berig care so much about citing source

[edit] Information removal

My articles with sources have been censured. You have motivation I suppose, (I know that my Englih isn’t so good! I’m only a Viking) but there’s still a big problem to be impartial in Wiki ! When articles speak about Norse mythology we have only the Christians’ opinion! What's about Asatruar opinion? For us it isn’t mythology! Today Christians are quiet and honest and I respect them, but history claim and prove that Christians were like ayatollahs during thousand years! How can one thinks that they give us the truth on our Viking’s believes and pagan one?: All serious Historians agree with this(Boyer, Renaud, Mabire, Musset, Barthelemy…) Here my article: We have to remember that it's the Christian clerks whom wrote and translated sagas, written a few centuries after the Viking era! (Inspired by Vitae Latina and Bible) This legend adapted for the Scandinavian Pantheon is in fact the means of the servants of the Church, not the original version! Christians wanted making fall into the collective spirit from the pagan people, the image of honourable Freyja (in German or Frigg in Norse), one of the Goddesses most respected, the symbol of the Woman, the Mother of the hearth, the maternal love, the romantic love… by humiliating her in this myth where she looks like a “prostitute” and covetous woman! The most strange is that the great Odin her husband misled and dishonoured don’t avenged himself! It is the same intention for the most powerful God, Thor , the symbol of virility, ridiculous by a absurd disguise, and give a bad image which he represents: a honourable fighter rather than to using comedy. Also for Freyr who is supposed having incest relation with his sister! I think that you have to consider that those calumnies are insults for Asatruar believers. I propose that in each article we expose the opinion of non Christians.Thorgis 15:52, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

I was about to put a similar tag myself on the page, motivated in large part by the exclamation marks and incoherent sentences. As to "with sources", the reference to other wikipedia pages do not seem to qualify, imho. Note for example that although you equate Freyja and Frigg, the very Frigg article you quote discusses this and makes it questionable. Solonix 18:24, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for your explanations. I understand what you mean, and I’m sorry for my English. I’ll take care to stay completely neutral in regards to subjects. I’m not accustoming yet with encyclopedic definition! If you think that the following information is better, I request your help to translate in good English with changing few words if I still write not neutral sentences.

Here my new article: Historians know (1) that a large majority of Norse Mythology have been wrote or translate by Christians few centuries after Viking period, they wanted to give a bad look for Norse Gods. Another point of view for Norse believers explains that Freyja is one of the Goddesses most respected. She was the symbol of the Woman, the Mother of the hearth, the maternal love, the romantic love… she can’t be a “prostitute” and covetous woman. Odin her husband can’t be dishonored without avenged himself. Same for the most powerful God, Thor , the symbol of virility, ridiculous by an absurd disguise , or for Freyr who is supposed having incest relation with his sister. sources: (1) "L'Islande Médiévale" Régis Boyer, Guide belle lettres des civilisations ISBN 2-251-41014-7 "Le Christ des barbares" Régis Boyer, les Editions du cerf 1987 ISBN 2-204-02766-9 Thorgis 14:02, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Article Cleanup Co-Ordination Point

As the article now stands it is fairly informative, NPOV, and coherent, and there are far worse articles out there in need of cleanup. I suggest that we remove the cleanup tag shortly unless there are cogent reasons for retaining them. If so, it would be helpful to have them outlined. Sjc 06:37, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Thank you very much for your help! Thorgis 13:28, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Removed tag. No one has bothered to respond and I see no logical reason why this should remain tagged. Sjc 06:49, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Re: Christianity

While I'm all for attacking the actions of people who claimed to be acting in the name of Christianity or the Christian god, Wikipedia is meant to keep a neutral point of view, and to allow readers to draw their own conclusions based on demonstrable facts. I don't believe that we need to say that Christian sources were biased if we can show that they euhemerized or otherwise altered the deities of other cultures in their accounts. Lucky number 49 14:43, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Users with their motives

This Haukurth, who claims to be an Icelander, tried to remove the following:

• "a short story written by two Icelandic Christian priests in 15th century (400 years after the Christianization of Iceland)" and replaced it with one_single_ ambiguous word: "late" (remember that Christian Priests and Paganism are enemies). Iceland converted to Christianity and threw out pagan gods in 999. This story is written in 1400, so it's 400 years after... Let's see what happened in Iceland. Norsemen began to settle there around 874 and in 1000 they were converted to Christianity. So by the time those Christian Priests wrote that story, they worshipped Norse pagan deities for 126 years, and considered those deities "devils", "demons", "fiends" in the last 400 years.
• "brave christened men": this one is explicitly written in the story (it says Odin, the chief pagan god said "make them fight forever unless a_brave_christened_man who has a great lord with great luck enters and slays them all)... why would a pagan god talks about Christianity?? The funny thing is: the "great lord" turns out to be Olaf Tryggvason, the one who converted Norway and Iceland to Christianity. Olaf's favorite sport is "PAGAN KILLING". Yet Odin, the chief pagan god respects Olaf >_>
• "contradicts older sources": clear. Freyja is not Odin's "concubine". Húsdrápa says Loki steals Freyja's necklace and Heimdall gets it back, this says "Freyja prostituted for a necklace, Odin commanded Loki to steal it, Freyja got the necklace back by turning people to undead, great Christian king Olaf's brave christened men ended the curse..." ... Ragnarsdrápa says Hildr resurrects was Högni and Heðinn's men to make them fight forever, this one says "Freyja make Högni and Heðinn fight forever, great Christian king Olaf's brave christened men ended the curse"...
• "does not have the word "Brísingamen""... unless you can't read... I dare to to find the word in that story.
• "it was later rewritten by some modern people"... this is definitely needed, given how many lame "Freyja prostituted for Brisingamen" so-called "myths" out there. Again, I dare anyone to find the original text which says "Freyja prostituted for Brisingamen". Really.

I guess Haukurth has his motives to try to hide those facts? So state your reasons. Or I guess you are proud that your ancestors are the only people on earth who worshiped a "hooker"? Let's see what Greek do to their Athena? Virgin goddess with virgin birth. Freyja? Hooker (according to 2 christian priests) who receives half of the slain heroes... oh... Frigg? Oh... another prostitute (hooked up with a servant, according to an archbishop's follower). We have the Olympic games, most things invented by Greeks... what did Norsemen invent? Axe? I heard the never bath (read in the Viking article). What do I think when I read the story about the "hooker goddess"? No, I don't laugh at the goddess. She never lived, she is what people "write" her to be. So I laughed at the people who created the story of "hooker goddess". I think they are human trashes, savages, etc.

The funny thing is that these people left this article like s--- and never cared about it, but when others trying to improve it, they start to show up and revert.123.19.62.190 (talk) 16:54, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

What have you got against prostitutes? What are your sources for the authorship and purpose of Sörla þáttr? Haukur (talk) 17:26, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

I have nothing against prostitutes. Icelanders worshiped a prostitute, that's their problems. What do I think when I read the story about the "hooker goddess"? No, I don't laugh at the goddess. She never lived, she is what people "write" her to be. So I laughed at the people who created the story of "hooker goddess". I think they are human trashes, savages, etc. "brave christened men" of the King who christianized Iceland and Norway dissolved the spell of a pagan goddess who happens to be a hooker, and it's not to praise Christianity?123.19.62.190 (talk) 17:30, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

That's your inference. If it is obvious then the reader can make it on her own without you pointing it out to her. Haukur (talk) 17:39, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

And what's your reasons for deleting all "written by two Christian Priests"? "brave Christened men"? Sothat readers won't figure it out on their own? Let's see what Greeks do to their Athena? Virgin goddess with virgin birth. Freyja? Hooker (according to 2 christian priests) who receives half of the slain heroes... oh... Frigg? Oh... another prostitute (hooked up with a servant, according to an archbishop's follower; hooked up with husband's bothers). Not to mention that other goddesses (Sif, Skadi, Idun) are all whores, and Gefjun, the "virgin goddess" is also a prostitute (Lokasenna). I think Norsemen are savages. What do you think? Oh, I don't insult Scandinavians. They insulted themselves. 123.19.62.190 (talk) 17:49, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Haukurth is right in removing this theory until references are provided. Norse paganism did not abide by the sexual morality of modern major religions. Moreover, Freyja practiced shamanism and archaeology has shown that such shamans were even buried with sexually arousing drugs.--Berig (talk) 18:03, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Whats the "Norse Mythology"? Stories about pagan gods written by their enemies, Christians? Freyja did not practice shamanism. She never lived. Where's your reference? Scandinavians are the only people who worshiped HOOKERS!! HAHAHAHAHah XD

Also, I'm fed up with these "friends" (Berig, Haukurt, Bloodofox) who are ever slow to improve Norse articles, but extremely quick (always) to "help" each others.123.19.62.190 (talk) 18:08, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Here is my reference:

Harrison, D. & Svensson, K. (2007). Vikingaliv Fälth & Hässler, Värnamo. ISBN 978-91-27-35725-9

It's a book written by a well-known Swedish historian in collaboration with an archaeologist. It contains an extensive discussion on burials of witches, of their connections with Freyja and of their drug-use.--Berig (talk) 18:13, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Enlight me. How exactly archaeology proves that "the corpse they dug up are pagan shamans", and how they are related to someone who never lived? Freyja did not practice shamanism. She never lived. What does that have to do with "2 christian priests write a lame story to praise Olaf, which contradict all older sources? If this story is true, then Freyja is Odin's concubine, she is a hooker, Odin is a pitiful cuckold who is on the same line as four f------- dwarves, they turned people to undead, and Olaf Tryggvason's brave christened men dissolved their curse? Sound more like a f------ story invented by Christian priests to insult the receivers of the slains to me (the "fight for eternity" clearly refers to Einherjar, which is demonized into "evil curse"). 123.19.62.190 (talk) 18:19, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

The book I mentioned constitutes a reliable source by WP standards.--Berig (talk) 18:28, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

And?

Oh. Scandinavians are the only people on earth who worshiped HOOKERS! ehehehehh 123.19.62.190 (talk) 18:31, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

And if they did venerate what you would call "hookers", would that be a problem?--Berig (talk) 18:34, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Nothing. I just call them savages and stuffs. But where's your source that the pagan goddess is a HOOKER (beside a story written by CHRISTIAN PRIESTS?)

Let's me talk about these people. This article was written like that for quite sometimes, and they never gave a s---. It is a mess, and they never care. Then I came up and improved it, they started to revert. And they try hard to protect their friends. Berig never cared about "written by Christian priests" (it was in for a long time), but now to help his friend, he started to rant about it. The same go to Bloodofox. He wrote "germanic paganism", but later to help his friend, he tried to delete it (he forgot that he wrote the sentence himself) that made me laugh. 123.19.62.190 (talk) 18:39, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

So now, I will add to the articles of "Iceland", "Norway", "Sweden", "Denmark" that they are the only people who worshiped a pitiful cuckold (Odin = 4 dwarves), a cheap hooker (Freyja, 1 night = 1/4 a necklace, cheap. Dwarves cummed in her. Diseased hooker.), a shameless whore (Frigg, hooked up with servant, slave, husband's brothers), and a "virgin" prostitute (Gefjun, sold virginity for a necklace), and give Sörla þáttr, Lokasenna as sources, you won't have any problems with it, right?

When I compare them to the divine grace of the heaven queen Juno or the completely honored Athena, I think Scandinavians are trash of the humanity. (Well, that's if the Christians who write about pagan gods are really credible)

I would imagine when a Viking meets another man: "Hey man, looks at this ugly statue (can't make any like Greek and Latin's, too stupid). This is Freyja, my foremost goddess who ranked with the queen Frigg. She is a diseased hooker who prostituted and had sexual intercourse with 4 filthy dwarves. They f---ed my goddess like a stuffed chicken in all holes and only paid a necklace. Anyway, I want to die bravely in battles to serve this hooker. Can't wait to die". Well... something like that? I'm glad I'm not scandinavian in any pathetic ways.

And wondering how a tiny dwarf with a tiny d--- f---ed a giantess with loose holes like that hooker goddess? Gangbanged? 4 on 1? "Great Goddess of the North"... great what? Great HOOKER! "motherly goddess"... mother what? Motherly HOOKER? Savages who never bath. What's with the hooker crying golden tears for her husband? Lame. Maybe she cried because she's sexually deprived and 4 dwarves gangbangs can't please her? "The Lady"... lady what? Lady HOOKER?

Those Frigg, Freyja, Odin, never lived. So I laugh at the savages who created them. Again, here, I don't insult scandinavians. They insulted themselves. Period. (not for Berig, cuz he's proud of it and not feeling insulted "in the least".

Anyway, today I was amused. Thank you. Me, a non-scandinavian trying to tell the truth that their "hooker goddess" is just a lame story written by Christian Priests, but those scandinavians bashed me and tried to maintain that "we worship hookers, and we are proud of it." Teehee. 123.19.62.190 (talk) 19:16, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, but I don't feel insulted in the least.--Berig (talk) 19:22, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

It seems I'm a little late for the party here. Anyway, regarding my "Germanic paganism" reference, it was changed because Freyja isn't clearly distinguishable from Frigg outside of primarily Eddic sources and the change was an improvement. The Frigg article still needs lots of work, which I see you've helped with lately. My time is pretty limited at the moment. Regarding Sörla þáttr, I'm pretty sure it's clear to everyone here as to what it is. Instead of getting so hung up on it, just find a source stating the obvious, word it per standard, and move on. That is all you can do. With that said, all of this ranting doesn't help anything. :bloodofox: (talk) 22:29, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Flateyjarbók was mostly written in the 14th century as, indeed, our own article explains. Haukur (talk) 09:21, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Sörla þattr and the Flateyjarbok

As per user:Haukurth's edit summary[1], I doubt that Sörla þattr can be considered to have been written in conjunction with the compilation of Flateyjarbok. The Flateyjarbok is a collection of manuscripts in which the stories, as far as I know, can be considerably older than the collection itself.--Berig (talk) 20:58, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Don't pretend like you don't know how to read. Or do you just revert and call admins who knows nothing about the subject to block.

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Brisingamen&diff=199673566&oldid=199672396

What's your reasons for reverting that? I wrote: "Sörla þattr" is a story in the Flateyjarbok, which was written in 15th century. It's a fact.

And where's your source that Sörla þattr was not written by the priests who write the sagas of Olaf Tryggvason?

I have been helping improve Norse articles for almost a year, and this is what I got? Attacking me because I use IPs? 123.19.43.70 (talk) 21:04, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Your reference only concerns the Flateyjarbok, and thus it only concerns the date of the manuscript for Sörla þattr and not the story itself. I hope that you are aware of the fact that the stories were propagated from manuscript to manuscript and so the reference says nothing about those who originally invented/adapted the story.--Berig (talk) 21:08, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

I wrote FACTS:

1. Sörla þattr is in Flateyjarbok
2. Flateyjarbok is written by 2 Christian Priests in 15th century

What's your reasons for reverting? Where's your reference that Sörla þattr existed outside/before Flateyjarbok?

I have been helping improve Norse articles for almost a year, and this is what I got? Attacking me because I use IPs? 123.19.43.70 (talk) 21:12, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

I repeat: your reference only concerns the Flateyjarbok, and thus it only concerns the scribes and the date of the manuscript for Sörla þattr and not the story itself. I hope that you are aware of the fact that the stories were propagated from manuscript to manuscript and so the reference says nothing about those who originally invented/adapted the story.--Berig (talk) 21:14, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

I repeat: I wrote FACTS:

1. Sörla þattr is in Flateyjarbok. <--- HUGE FACT
2. Flateyjarbok is written by 2 Christian Priests in 15th century <--- HUGE FACT

What's your reasons for denying that Sörla þattr is in Flateyjarbok and Flateyjarbok is written by 2 Christian Priests in 15th century? Answer it.

I have been helping improve Norse articles for almost a year, and this is what I got? Attacking me because I use IPs? The guy Harkuth never tried to improve this article, but when I do, he popped up and say "Jacob Grimm is obsolete" and things like that. He can say that? Who is he? He started the edit war, and I was blocked because "edit warrings"? 123.19.43.70 (talk) 21:21, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Answer it. You people started the edit war, then I was blocked because I am an IP. Then this page is locked sothat I can't edit, and you people can revert facts without any reasons? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 123.19.45.128 (talk) 21:26, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

The problem is that you claim that Sörla þáttr was created by the scribes who compiled Flateyjarbok. The fact that you appear to want to provoke by writing racy stories about Greek and Norse gods (stories that were quickly removed by various editors) does not help you in the least.--Berig (talk) 08:32, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Unlike you, I have many problems with you and your friend:

1st problem: Take a look at your revert http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Brisingamen&diff=199671361&oldid=199670641 Look at that: It's written "In the Flatbook written in 15th century, there is that short story". OK? Do you know how to read? I don't "claim" that the short story is written in 15th century, and you still "revert per Harkurth. What does that mean?

2nd problem: You also just "claim" that Sörla þattr is not written by those priests. Prove it. It's obviously a Christian story though *what's with "Christened men" and the Olaf Tryggvason guy who loved to kill pagan?

3rd problem: Sörla þattr is in the "Saga of Olaf Tryggson", the version stored in Flateyjarbok, with "extended material" at that. To give an easy to check proof: http://www.gutenberg.org/files/18947/18947-8.txt And to give another easy to check proof that the "Saga of Olaf Tryggvason" is written by one of the two priests who wrote Flateyjarbok: http://www.northvegr.org/lore/flatey/000.php If you want to claim that it (the obvious Christian story) was not written by those priests, prove it. Prove that the so-called Sörla þattr existed before the Flateyjarbok.

4th problem: Here's your edit http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Brisingamen&diff=190058747&oldid=190045319 I can see that "written by Christian priests" is there, but you never cared. Why are you so against it now and talking like you know all?

About the "racy" you mentioned, I still keep my point of view. Scandinavians are the only people on this earth who depicted their goddesses as prostitutes. If Frigg and Freyja can sell sex to slaves, servants, dwarves; what kind of people/thing can't buy sex from them? I think Greek gods are too good clients for these goddesses.

5th problem: I do have a problem with you people's way of working. You never tried to improve this article, but when I do here http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Brisingamen&diff=199107911&oldid=196485389 I got bashed for this and that. Look at this article Ögmundar þáttr dytts, written by Haukurth and Berig. You people cite no source, and "claim" that it's 14th century, and you think it's alright. because you wrote it, it's Ok without citation? No citation is needed for what written by Haukurth?123.19.43.108 (talk) 15:00, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

123..., if you have "written Norse Myth articles here for years", why don't you use your account and participate in constructive debate. If you are just here to revert-war and post annoyed rants, we'll need to semi-protect the articles concerned. If you are a veteran editor as you claim, you should know how this works. Of course Berig and Haukurth need to cite their sources like everyone else. But Wikipedia also works based on editors' reputations. Both Berig and Haukur are very well known as experts on Norse mythology. If the two of them agree on a point, it is very likely alright and they should be given leeway to work it out in context. Unfortunately, anonymous editors have no reputation to work with and need to give justification for every one of their edits. dab (𒁳) 08:57, 26 March 2008 (UTC) Flateyjarbók was mostly written in the 14th century as, indeed, our own article explains. Haukur (talk) 09:21, 26 March 2008 (UTC) Alright, Sörla thattr is obviously christianized, just like Beowulf, by the way. However, no source has been given for the claim that the story was created during the compilation of Flateyjarbok. I have seen scholars refer to Freyja's involvement as an authentic pagan story and so I will require the anon to provide a real source for his claim. There were also some non-encyclopedic words, such as "great", etc, and the claim that Odin was not part of Hjaðningavíg is highly dubious and will need sourcing since both Skáldskaparmál and the AS poem Deor mention a name for Odin: Heorenda/Hjarrandi.--Berig (talk) 07:51, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

So it's an authentic pagan story and the pagan goddess of Scandinavians is a prostitute who copulated with 4 dwarves in 4 successive nights for a necklace, then. And some brave christened men dissoved her curse, then. shrug

Where's my "claim"? Source? Here [2] 123.19.52.89 (talk) 15:23, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

What you are doing is called writing original research and that is forbidden on Wikipedia. If you can find a reliable source that says that Freyja's involvment in the Hjaðningavíg was a Christian invention, feel free to add it.--Berig (talk) 15:28, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Huh? what am I doing? Where's my "claim"? here's the source [3] 123.19.52.89 (talk) 15:30, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Please read WP:RS in detail.--Berig (talk) 15:32, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Uh huh. What hit my eyes are: This page in a nutshell: Articles should be based on reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. and This page is a guideline, it is not a policy.

Again, what did I do? [4] <-- read that. It's a cool article about the Norse goddess of "sexual intercourse". 123.19.52.89 (talk) 15:36, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Verifiability is a policy, and it specifically requires reliable sources as defined by the WP:RS guideline. Kafziel ^{Complaint Department} 16:32, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

And why are you feeding it too me? What did I do? 123.19.52.89 (talk) 16:55, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

You are breaking that policy, that is what you do.--Berig (talk) 17:05, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Where did I give sources which is not reliable? 123.19.52.89 (talk) 17:30, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Here.--Berig (talk) 07:26, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Are you joking? It's a talkpage. You gave an example in a talkpage edit? Joke? 123.19.56.47 (talk) 08:07, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Actually, I wonder why Sörla þattr is in this "Brisingamen" article anyway. Sörla þattr does not have the word "Brisingamen". The necklace in Sörla þattr is a golden necklace, not "Brisingamen". Like Berig wrote, some scholars think the "silver pendant" is "Brisingamen". Then Brisingamen is made of silver, not gold. shrug.123.19.52.89 (talk) 15:47, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

The silver pendant does not represent Brisingamen. It shows a lady who has a necklace, which some scholars say is Brisingamen.--Berig (talk) 16:42, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to say that the necklace Freyja wearing is Brisingamen. Freyja has Brisingamen, alright. But no pagan source said that Freyja prostituted and copulated with 4 dwarves to obtain Brisingamen. And if there were some pagan sources like that, it ain't my concern.123.19.52.89 (talk) 16:55, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

That is neither your decision nor mine. It is up to verifiabiable sources to say whether her liaison with the dwarves is pagan or Christian.--Berig (talk) 17:03, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Looks like you do not understand what I say. I don't talk about that story is Christian or not. I was talking about the fact that it does not contain the word "Brisingamen". 123.19.44.54 (talk) 16:03, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Not that I care. Scandinavian pagan goddess is a shameless hooker? Let it be. 123.19.52.89 (talk) 17:09, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

And don't call me anon or 123. I am human, I have names.123.19.52.89 (talk) 15:47, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

If you want to be called by name, register an account. Kafziel ^{Complaint Department} 16:32, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

I wanted to create an account called "Freyja the dwarven tramp". But somehow it's not allowed. Actually, I don't like how Wikipedia work, so I don't want an account. 123.19.52.89 (talk) 16:55, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Indeed. I don't think you and Wikipedia agree with one another. I suggest you try blogspot. By the way, the very page 123 links to shows a much better understanding of the issue than he has:

Thus, if there is anything which distinguishes Ásatrú from Christianity, it is its attitude toward sex and women, as seen in the stories of the goddesses Frigg and Freya .. [who] show similar traits of independence and sexual uninhibitedness.

The implication is that pagan sexual uninhibitedness has been superseded and demonized by Christian sexual morale. I find it mildly amusing to have somebody apparently dedicated to "defending paganism" applying this very Puritan Christian morale ("shameless hooker") unquestioningly. What's this, Calvinist Ásatrú? That said, I think 123 has been fed enough now. We should drop this topic pending the citation of anything quotable. If necessary, we can semi-protect the affected articles. dab (𒁳) 10:24, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

The page that I gave a link to is obviously written by a confused idiot who is a christian and who "claimed" a lot of thing. I found it hilarious, so I gave a link here. So what? The guy who owns that webpage somehow forgot to mention that the one who wrote stories about Frigg's "independence and sexual uninhibitedness" is a follower of a christian ArchBishop, who yells again and again that "Odin is a false god who was exiled by Latin gods" and something like that, and the story about Freyja's "independence and sexual uninhibitedness" happened to be in a book written by christian priests, which stated that Odin cursed people and Olaf Tryggvason's christened men dissolved the pagan curse. hahah Oh, the chief pagan god told a pagan goddess to curse people until "some brave christened men came to end the curse". Hahah. Odin talked about Christianity? Lame. 123.19.44.54 (talk) 16:06, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Semi-protection might be necessary if 123 repeats his WP:SYNTH and disruptive behaviour.--Berig (talk) 18:15, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

dab is just a little not happy since I pointed out that he actually does not know anything about "Norse mythology". Hookers are hookers: those who sell their bodies to gain materials are hookers. There's nothing about christianity or paganism in it. If dab is that knowledgable, I guess he can provide the pagan texts which suggest that Norse pagan people do not consider selling sex "prostitution", or that they consider prostitution good. If you have read the "Norse mythology", you should have known that the favorite insults are calling woman "lustful", right? Like in that "Lokasenna", and various dialogues. And those women reacted angrily, so being "lustful" is obviously not a good trait for Norse pagan women. Puritan Christian morale? Yeah, the story is pretty much Christian. Christened men? heh

More talks about the subject and less some random hateful accusations: Berig says that Odin is Hjarrandi and Hjarrandi is Odin. The funny thing is that Sörla þattr mentioned both Odin and Hjarrandi. Odin is king in Asialand who has a concubine called Freyja. Hjarrandi is Hedinn's father. So is Hedinn Odin's son? Sörla þattr does not suggest anything that those two are one and the same. Bah 123.19.44.54 (talk) 15:45, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

So far Haukur admitted: Flateyjarbók was mostly written in the 14th century as, indeed, our own article explains. (talk) 09:21, 26 March 2008 (UTC) And Berig admitted: Alright, Sörla thattr is obviously christianized. (talk) 07:51, 27 March 2008 (UTC) And User:Dbachmann does not know anything, obviously. 123.19.39.107 (talk) 17:12, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

There's no contradiction. Yes, of course, Sörla þáttr as it has come down to us is a work written by a Christian. It may still preserve authentic pagan traditions. In fact we know that it preserves authentic pagan traditions - the only questions in that regard have to do with the things found there and not elsewhere (such as the story of Freyja and the dwarves which has you so worked up). And the fact that the story is preserved in a 14th century manuscript isn't some powerful rebuttal against it containing pagan traditions. Sonatorrek is only preserved in 17th century manuscripts and is still believed to be an authentic pagan poem. On the other hand Lokasenna, which you seem to regard as an unimpeachable source for pagan sexual mores, is believed by many scholars to have been composed after the conversion. Haukur (talk) 17:44, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

The only reason why many scholars said that Lokasenna is Christian is because it IS christian, and because it is in the poetic Edda, which is famous and is the subject of many books. It's not only Lokasenna, how about the poem of Harbath? Ok. But if Lokasenna is a Christian work, then it is even more clear that no pagan sources described Norse pagan deities as sexually immoral, and it is even more clear that Christians attempted to demonize/insult pagan deities (which they really did, and did a lot. Sacred pagan ritual spots were demonized into "witches' den", for example). heheh If Lokasenna is Christian, then Sörla þáttr is out of question, 200% Christian. "Pagan sexual moral"? I don't care. Did Vikings allow their wives to have sex with slaves and servants and they are happy about it? Who cares? Just give the pagan source written by pagan Norse people which stated it.

The problem is not exactly the date of the story (400 years after the Christianization) or it is written by Christian Priests, but the nature of the story. If the "Freyja and the dwarves" is a pagan story, it should be infamous, why does it not exist anywhere else? Why no one ever mentioned it? Why does it just pop up so conveniently in a Christianized story? Sörla þáttr clearly is to insult paganism and praise Olaf Tryggvason, the guy who Christianized Norway and Iceland (the hero of many christian sagas). The Christian who wrote it invented Olaf's christened men and such, who knows what kind of "alterations" or "inventions" did they put into it? If you say "maybe" they borrowed an older "myth", then why couldn't they "borrowed" an older anti-pagan story? It's 400 years after the Christianization, stories sprouted by Christian missionaries to demonize pagan gods should have been old enough by then. The people who write books about the so-called "Norse Mythology" are hypocritic Christians, who like you, always tried to hide the fact that the "Norse Mythology" was written by Christians, and they pretend that Christians and Pagans are "good friends", not enemies. Some of them, like you said about Grimm, are quite obsolete idiots who take anything they can find as "pagan myths"... Sonatorrek is written by a pagan skald who lived before the Christianization of Scandinavia, so it's an authentic pagan source, what else? Did Sonatorrek relate anything about pagan deities cursing people and Olaf Tryggvason's "brave christened men" help people to end the curse? These Christians did not write any thing about "Pagan Mythology". They wrote about Olaf Tryggvason, stories about him Christianize this and that. They considered pagan deities devil. Freyja is a pagan goddess, what guaranteed that they did not try to insult the "fiend"? She is also associated with magic. Who burnt witches alive and really hate magic? Something written by Christians, which claimed that a pagan god is a cuckold, a pagan goddess is a hooker, and the cuckold told the hooker to "curse them until some brave christened men who serve a great christened lord come" is ridiculous. If it is an authentic pagan tradition, then Freyja is Odin's concubine, they turned people to undead, and Olaf Tryggvason's brave christened men help people, uh huh. Oh wait, why should I talk about those? I did not write anything in the article about Sörla þáttr being Christian or not. I gave a summarization of the story, gave its origin, that's all. As long as you do not try to omit the "Olaf Trygvason's brave christened men" part and try to hide its date and origin, fine by me. Why are you so work up about the fact that it is Christian, in a book written by Christian priests, 400 years after the Christianization of Iceland? All I saw is that you people wrote "also mentioned in Sörla þáttr". And in the article of Sörla þáttr, you wrote "borrow the myth". It's cunning at Loki's level! People who don't know anything will think that there's a "pagan myth" about "Freyja and the dwarves" somewhere, and Sörla þáttr just "borrowed" it. That's false and misleading informations. "Given by Alberich"? Nonsense. All I did is to give a summary of Sörla þáttr and its origin. I am the one who should be amazed of how you and your friend are so worked up over it. 123.19.48.69 (talk) 06:28, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] And suddenly Harkurth and Berig care so much about citing source

[5] <-- This article before: cite zero source. Which original pagan writings stated that When she wore it no man or god could withstand her charms, which was obviously a matter of great concern to the other goddesses during springtime when she reputedly wore it. The necklace also gave support to any army which she favoured on the battlefield. ??

Which original pagan writings stated that It was reputedly forged by four dwarves, and, in order to obtain it, she was obliged to spend a night with each of them in turn. Alternatively, King Alberich gave it to her. ?? There is no original text (christian or not) which states that Freyja hooked with dwarves for Brisingamen. I dare you to give me the mythological writing which states that.

Brísingamen also appears in a second euhemerized version in Sörla þáttr? Also? Second version? Excuse me. Where's the 1st version? Where's the original version?? They wrote as if there was a real pagan story which stated that the pagan goddess is a hooker, and Sörla þáttr only borrowed that. Wrong informations.

Why did you hide the rest like when Odin say: "Christened men" and Olaf Tryggvason? So that people won't find out that it's a christian story?

[6] <-- But when I improve this article, they started to put so much care into "where's your claim", "where's your source". Haha

Harkurth is incredible. When I wrote something and cited Jacob Grimm, he deleted it, saying "Grimm is obsolete". When I deleted some uncited information which bashed Victor Rydberg, Harkurth restored it, saying "It cites no source, but it's gererally accurate so I won't remove it". Who is this guy who is bigger than Swedish and German scholars? 123.19.52.89 (talk) 17:18, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

I think both of these 19th century scholars are obsolete and cannot generally be used as sources without some qualification. Both were, of course, astute scholars and gifted writers. Haukur (talk) 17:49, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

That's what YOU think (with the word "you" in CAPS and the word "think" bolded)123.19.52.89 (talk) 18:04, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

A lot of changes have taken place in how scholars view Viking Age Scandinavia, not only because of the zeitgeist but also because of archaeological finds and progress in comparative mythology (e.g. Dumézil). A mainstream modern scholar is a much better source than both Grimm and Rydberg.--Berig (talk) 18:10, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

That's what YOU think. Tell me again when you two have your own wiki, or when there's a new rule on Wikipedia which says "Harkurth and his friend Berig is teh rule". 123.19.52.89 (talk) 18:14, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

It sounds like you think WP is some kind of power struggle, 123. It is not. It is an encyclopedia where we edit according to policy. Don't you think the information on WP should be up to date?--Berig (talk) 07:29, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Funny, I think Grimm is obsolete too. But it doesn't give you or Harkurth the right to write stuffs without citing sources, or attack scholars without giving any proof that they are wrong. Just don't try to drive the conversation to another way. What I pointed out is that you and your friend never actually wanted to improve this article or to give sources. 123.19.62.226 (talk) 08:13, 28 March 2008 (UTC)