Talk:Boy Scouts of America

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[edit] On My Honor: Why the American Values of the Boy Scouts Are Worth Fighting for, by TX Gov. Rick Perry

Folks, Texas Governor Rick Perry has just come out (Feb 12, 2008) with a book relevant to this page. Consider if/how it should be added. Here's a link to On My Honor: Why the American Values of the Boy Scouts Are Worth Fighting for: [1] --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 21:52, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

I have not read the book, bu I have seen some discussions, what points are relevant to this article? --— Gadget850 (Ed) talk - 15:56, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
FYI- I just added the full book cite, including the official website to Rick Perry. --— Gadget850 (Ed) talk - 01:42, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Organization

This is a rough draft of proposed reorganization. --— Gadget850 (Ed) talk - 22:01, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Current organization
  1. Origins
  2. Ideals
  3. Membership divisions
  4. Organization
    1. National Council
    2. Regions and areas
    3. Local councils
    4. Boroughs
    5. Districts
    6. Units and chartered organizations
    7. Scouting for the handicapped
  5. Federal charter
  6. Activities
    1. Publications
    2. Scoutreach
    3. Other divisions
    4. Learning for Life
  7. Finance
  8. National Scouting Museum
  9. Good Turns
  10. Advancement and recognition
  11. Uniform and insignia
  12. Impact on American life
    1. Membership controversies
Recommended organization
  1. Origins
  2. Membership divisions
    1. Scouting for the handicapped (this might be better placed in the membership articles)
  3. Learning for Life
  4. Methods: Summarize the methods of the three divisions— ideals, association (den and family, patrol, groups and adults), advancement and recognition (chop this down greatly), leadership, outdoors and high adventure, and uniform
  5. Organization
    1. National Council
      1. Federal charter
      2. Divisions
        1. Scoutreach
        2. Other divisions
        3. Publications
        4. National Scouting Museum
      3. Regions and areas
    2. Local councils
      1. Boroughs
      2. Districts
    3. Units and chartered organizations
  6. Finance
  7. Impact on American life
    1. Good Turns
    2. Membership controversies

[edit] Alternate proposal

  1. Origins
  2. Ideals
  3. Methods
    1. Uniform and insignia
    2. Advancement and recognition
    3. Publications (or perhaps under 'Activities' < and rename Activities?)
  4. Membership divisions
    1. Units and chartered organizations
    2. Scoutreach
    3. Scouting for the handicapped
    4. Other divisions
  5. Organization
    1. National Council
      1. Federal charter
    2. Regions and areas
    3. Local councils
      1. Boroughs
      2. Districts
  6. Activities <perhaps this needs to be renamed?
    1. National Scouting Museum
    2. Learning for Life
  7. Finance
  8. Impact on American life
    1. Good Turns
    2. Membership controversies <perhaps under Membership

Lasalle202 (talk) 22:37, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

  • I prefer Gadget's new one. Also, "Boroughs" is not important nor long enough to warrant a separate section. It should be a paragraph or at the end of a para in the section on councils/districts. — Rlevse • Talk • 23:07, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
  • Publications are not one of the methods of Scouting, nor is it an activity; the magazines come under the Publications Group and could probably be placed under other divisions.
  • ScoutReach and other divisions are not membership. Membership could go under organization, but it is central to the article and needs to come early.
  • Learning for Life is a non-Scouting subsidiary of the BSA; this could probably be a separate section after membership divisions.
  • Districts should come under councils, as they have no separate legal status.
  • I'm really not quite sure where to place Scouting for the handicapped. It really is not a separate program, as all except Lone Scouts are integrated into the unit. It might work better in the membership articles.
--— Gadget850 (Ed) talk - 23:34, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
I made a few changes to my organization. Ideals are part of methods; the methods section needs a lot of work, as each division has different ideals and other methods. I am considering that we just want to chop this down to a universal aims section. --— Gadget850 (Ed) talk - 17:10, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
I agree. The level specific stuff can go into those articles. — Rlevse • Talk • 18:20, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
  • sounds good to me. --evrik (talk) 18:24, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
I refined the organization a bit. --— Gadget850 (Ed) talk - 19:37, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
  • Not sure I follow the reasoning on equating "ideals" and "methods". For instance, an ideal is to train young men in leadership, whereas the method is the troop patrol (in Boy Scouts). I'd suggest that the section Origin and history follow the Lead, then Ideals and purposes next. If we're going to have 3 major sub-divisions following (Cubs, Boy Scouts, LFL), the methods specific to each should go there, shouldn't they? JGHowes talk - 04:41, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
    • In this context, ideals are part of the methods:
    • Methods of Cub Scouting: Ideals (Cub Scout Promise, Law of the Pack...), den, advancement, family involvement, activities, home and neighborhood centered, uniform.[2]
    • Methods of Boy Scouting: Ideals (Scout Oath, Scout Law...), patrols, outdoor program, advancement, association with adults, personal growth, leadership development, uniform.[3]
    • Methods of Venturing: Leadership, group activities, adult association, recognition, ideals (Venturing Oath, Venturing Code...), high adventure, teaching others.[4]

--— Gadget850 (Ed) talk - 08:42, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

You do have a point. Perhaps it would be better to discuss the aims and purposes of Scouting and leave the methods for the membership articles. --— Gadget850 (Ed) talk - 08:58, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Improvements

  • Lead- this needs to be gutted and rewritten.
Doing... JGHowes talk - 03:05, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
  • References- there are too many primary references to the BSA web sites; we need to look for alternatives.
  • Y Done Membership divisions- change to "membership", add section on membership requirements and move controversy section here. If the controversy section is more near the top, perhaps folks won't start stuffing in redundant material. Move Scouting for the handicapped here.
  • Added: Impact on American life - significant expansion using reliably sourced content.
Doing... JGHowes talk - 03:05, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

--— Gadget850 (Ed) talk - 19:11, 7 March 2008 (UTC)...added to Boy Scouting (Boy Scouts of America). — Rlevse • Talk • 02:10, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Agree, I'm starting to nibble at the Lead and also organizing notes from some books on Scouting for good WP:RS cites. JGHowes talk - 19:25, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
Also, instead of the article saying there are 3 divisions of Scouting and listing LFL in a separate section, wouldn't it be more accurate and better-organized to list all 4 divisions (including LFL) under the Membership section, with sub-sections for Cubs, Boy Scouts, Venture, and LFL each having {{main}} or {{further}} sub-section hats? That would also help in addressing the membership controversy issue, following your suggestion to move it here, because the membership requirements differ so, depending on division. JGHowes talk - 19:44, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
Good ideas. I will dig out my books this weekend. Moving LFL up is good, but not as a membership division- it is a subsidiary (I still think the BSA should spin it off entirely, but that is another issue.) The divisions and sub-divisions are already linked and bolded, so I don't think we need hatnotes here. --— Gadget850 (Ed) talk - 19:55, 7 March 2008 (UTC)


  • The article seems to be missing any mention of controversy, which ought to be corrected asap. An article on the Boy Scouts program should not go without addressing issues of homosexuality/religion in the organization. --Callie —Preceding unsigned comment added by Callielo (talk • contribs) 00:40, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
    • Have you actually read the article? This is a serious question, as I would really like to know how you missed the section that was just moved up from the end of the article so folks would see it more readily. --— Gadget850 (Ed) talk - 02:10, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Affiliated Organizations

It might be useful to list some of the affiliated organizations of the BSA, including some of the biggest sponsors and contributors, as well as some of the original affiliations. I heard something the other day about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints being affiliated with the BSA, but I found nothing here about that. I found this page discussing it: http://www.lds.org/pa/display/0,17884,5169-1,00.html

Furthermore, here is a list from the BSA of "Chartered Organizations and the Boy Scouts of America": http://www.scouting.org/Media/FactSheets/02-507.aspx Mmortal03 (talk) 17:54, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

That is a good point. Those references are a bit general, I would like to see some specific numbers as to the biggest sponsors and contributors. --— Gadget850 (Ed) talk - 01:37, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
This sounds like it would make a good topic for a list article.Lasalle202 (talk) 13:02, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Applebome says in Scout's Honor (ISBN 0-15-100592-3) that as of 2003, one-third of Scouts nationwide are in troops chartered to Methodist, Catholic, and Mormon churches. That year, there were 412,864 Scouts in Methodist-chartered troops, 410,805 in Mormon-chartered troops, and 376,000 in troops sponsored by Catholic churches. There were 33,272 Mormon units compared to 12,102 Methodist units, so evidently the average unit size is much greater in Methodist-sponsored troops. I plan to incorporate this kind of information in the "Impact on American life" section JGHowes talk - 03:41, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
Someone on Scouts-L just found it at P.R.A.Y.: [5] I will work up a chart of the top 25. ----— Gadget850 (Ed) talk - 21:03, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Chartered organizations

BSA membership as of December 2007
Organization Packs Cub youth Troops Scout youth Crews Vtr youth Total units Total youth
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints 9959 135115 18726 199141 8028 66473 36713 400729
United Methodist Church 5307 232758 5201 125989 1187 9673 11695 368420
Roman Catholic Church 4617 189985 3878 97185 905 10141 9400 297311
Parent-teacher groups
other than PTA		 3911 162534 874 21527 340 8671 5125 192732
Groups of citizens 2454 85060 1249 24297 1035 20159 4738 129516
Baptist churches 2114 69296 1969 33813 350 3467 4433 106576
Lutheran churches 1875 71680 1888 46834 436 3710 4199 122224
Presbyterian churches 1531 68556 1893 53031 408 3514 3832 125101
Business and industry 1432 42328 931 17298 1096 13712 3459 73338
Private schools 1568 46883 698 15171 804 30458 3070 92512
American Legion 1248 45762 1220 23023 311 4130 2779 72915
Lions Clubs International 1288 48539 1224 24174 190 1996 2702 74709
Other community organizations 922 30192 680 14671 814 16421 2416 61284
Parent-Teacher Associations 1779 73075 330 6336 41 971 2150 80382
Community centers 725 17521 509 9268 211 4444 1445 31233
Rotary International 625 27061 618 15570 179 3225 1422 45856
Fire departments 607 21636 583 11499 217 1889 1407 35024
United Church of Christ 565 24039 653 16224 119 966 1337 41229
Episcopal Church 551 24167 608 17261 161 1666 1320 43094
Christian Church (Disciples of Christ) 571 21648 584 12038 131 1027 1286 34713

62% of all units are now sponsored by a religious organization. ----— Gadget850 (Ed) talk - 01:13, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Outstanding! I've incorporated this into the Units and chartered organizations section. JGHowes talk - 04:05, 23 May 2008 (UTC)