Talk:Boy Scouts of America/Other issues

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Archive This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Contents

handshake

The Boy Scout Handshake is the traditional shake, done with the left hand instead of the right.

Does this mean "traditional handshake"? The Boy Scout handshake isn't a normal handshake... -- bdesham

Never saw you defend your edit. Words in quotes are exactly what the BSA believes.

By traditional handshake, he means that you shake someone's hand like you normally would, only you use your left hand instead of your right. It feels weird. Anyways, I allways thought that the reason that the left hand is used (contrary to what the article says) was because of something to do with Lord Baden Powell's expericence in Africa (I heard it at a Scoutmaster's minute like 6 years ago). I did an internet search and came up with this: http://www.lrtroop55.org/html/lord_baden-powell_.html (The part I'm talking about it roughly 1/2 way down the page). So, is this true or is it just some story? Either way, I think it would be good to mention it in the article. --Will 18:50, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Go ahead and put it in, but only as an alternative explanation. FWIW, I've never heard that story. --Smack (talk) 05:07, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
From what I was told, the reason why we shake with our left hand because the left hand is closest to our heart. There is another website that discusses the left hand theory, at http://www.scouttroop511.com/boy%20scouts/scout.handshake.htm. Zscout370 (talk) 17:11, 1 May 2005 (UTC)

Should there be anything added about the original boy scout "Hand Clasp" that was used by the BSA before it adopted the handshake that is used today? ScooterSES 23:53, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

I'm not aware of any "hand clasp" other than the OA hand clasp, and that probably shouldn't be on the wiki anyway. --Smack (talk) 03:41, 16 July 2005 (UTC)
The original BSA hand shake was know as the hand clasp and was different then the left handed handshake used today. The original hand clasp was made with the right hand and the little fingers were interlocked. It later evolved slowly into what it is today. (see http://home.earthlink.net/~scouters/history.html#anchor345906). ScooterSES 05:51, 16 July 2005 (UTC)

rank definitions

"The Senior Patrol Leader (SPL), and then his Assistant Senior Patrol Leader(s) (ASPL's), are the highest ranking boys in the troop. PL's and the SPL are elective positions. APL's are appointed by PL's; ASPL's are appointed by the SPL with the advice of the Scoutmaster. "

From my experience in scouting, SPL and APL are not nessecarily the highest ranking scouts, and ASPL's can be elected, as can APL's, depending on the troop. There is some leeway in that, it seems.

Lyellin 05:12, Dec 31, 2003 (UTC)

There are also Junior Assistant Scoutmasters, which are usually reserved for those with Eagle rank. These may be considered higher ranking.

The official publications, such as Junior Leadership Training Handbook state that. I'll dig mine out and confirm... --Jiang 06:05, 31 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I'll search for mine as well... *laughs*. JASMs are normally use (again, in my experience), for those kids who are Eagle, but not 18, or those who are not nessecarily around all that often, but are older, 17, 18 or so, so that they have a leadership position while not always being around. Lyellin 15:37, Dec 31, 2003 (UTC)

From the Junior Leader Handbook:

SPL - "The senior patrol leader is elected by the Scouts to represent them as the top junior leader in the troop."

ASPL - "The assistant senior patrol leader is the second-highest-ranking junior leader of the troop. He is appointed by the senior patrol leader with the approval of the Scoutmaster."

APL -"The assistant patrol leader is appointed by the patrol leader and leads the patrol in his absense."

I guess it's official... --Jiang 15:37, 3 Jan 2004 (UTC)

The confusion arises from the conflation of two different definitions of "rank." Perhaps a clearer wording would be "The Senior Patrol Leader (SPL), and then his Assistant Senior Patrol Leader(s) (ASPL's), are the top boy leaders of the troop." - Seth Ilys 15:45, 3 Jan 2004 (UTC)

The term we're looking for is "leadership position" or something to that effect. -Smack 22:13, 5 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Exactly...people allways get "ranks" and "jobs" mixed up. That being said, the SPL is usually at least a life scout and the ASPL a star. Generally, an SPL is supossed to plan things and give orders (where to set up tents and stuff like that). When it comes to being in charge, he is higher than all the other scouts , even if they have a higher rank.--Will 18:39, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Yes, it's a chain of command thing, not a rank thing. SPL's rank can be lower than ASPL's rank, etc. --Myles Long 18:47, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)
It is more of a chain of command, though from my experiences, the SPL is a Life or Eagle Scout. The ASPL is a Star or higher, while the PL and APL are first class or higher. We, the troop, picked the SPL, while the SPL chose his assistant with the OK of the leaders. We tend to follow the BSA guidelines. But I do think it should be called a leadership position than rank. Zscout370 (talk) 17:15, 1 May 2005 (UTC)
Yes, that's true. PL/APL must be First Class or higher. I believe in my troop, SPL was often Star or Life. Usually, the previous SPL was the new ASPL, but that wasn't always the case. On the rare occasion that we had an Eagle still in the troop (most of our members who earned Eagle did so at or immediately before their eighteenth birthday, making them ineligible to continue to be Boy Scouts after that), he was usually the JASM. But you're definitely right; it's a leadership position, not a rank. --Myles Long 22:30, 1 May 2005 (UTC)
I've been a Scoutmaster for a little over 12 years and one of my early SPLs was 2nd Class, though usually they've been Star or Life. Requirements to hold the office (or any other office) are determined by the Scoutmaster, usually based on what's available. We just had elections for new Patrol Leaders and both are Second Class (should be First Class in the next month or so). So, to indicate that there are nationally recognized rank requirements for leadership positions would be far from correct. --Habap 14:06, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
Most people who receive Eagle Scout usually leave the troop because of college or other scholing. I was asked to be an Assisant Scoutmaster after I turned 18 (I had my Eagle for a few months). I did so, but college got into the way of everything. We had a JASM in our troop, but only the Scoutmaster can choose him. One thing to also mention, I counted at least seven Eagle Scouts on Wikipedia (Jaing, Myles Long, myself, Tuff-Kat, Cavebear42, Dismas). So we start a Wiki Troop or something? Zscout370 (talk) 23:19, 1 May 2005 (UTC)
Hah, sure, why not? I earned my Eagle at 16. Right after I turned 16, actually. I then served as ASPL for 3 months, then as JASM for a year until I was 18. --Myles Long 14:52, 2 May 2005 (UTC)
How did you count them? Did you do a search of the user namespace for "Eagle Scout"? If you must compile a list, you can count me in. --Smack (talk) 04:39, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
One more eagle scout --> Gentgeen
We could always develop an award and patch for scouts who, say, bring three stubs to featured status or whatever, and apply to the National Advancement Council to recognize the patch. They might accept (probably not, but maybe in the future), but even if not, it'd be cool to have it available anyway (and people wear all kinds of unofficial patches, and no one much minds). Tuf-Kat 20:04, May 4, 2005 (UTC)
In counseling for Communications Merit Badge, I have contemplated asking Scouts to contribute to Wikipedia for their web page requirement. --Habap 14:06, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
Wiki Merit Badge
Thanks for giving me the idea Tuff-Kat. To the right, is my ideal for either A: The Wiki Merit Badge, B: An award for Wikipedians for great editing of Scouting related articles (no matter what nation), or C: If we creat a Wikipedia Scouting Message/Notice Board, this image can be used by the group members on their user page. Its yall idea, and I am happy no matter what yall decide. Enjoy my Scouting Brothers ans Sisters. Zscout370 (talk) 20:26, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
Sorry about the image, the transparency is bad. I will fix it in the next few mins. Zscout370 (talk) 20:28, 4 May 2005 (UTC)


Vandalism

To anonymous user 164.58.83.66: Please stop removing information from this page. If you continue to do so, I will ask that this page be protected. I do not object to your first couple of modifications, but the removal of useful information is unacceptable. --Smack 22:05, 28 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Wikibook mertit badges

Over at wikibooks, I have begun a project to create a guide to earning BSA merit badges, just in case anyone is interested in helping. (Mammal Study, for example, has already been started) Tuf-Kat 00:34, Mar 2, 2004 (UTC)

Meritbadge.com is a good resource. -Jobarts 06:12, Mar 31, 2005 (UTC)


Scouts as a melting pot?

Speaking as someone who's not terribly partial to the Scouts, one of the things that strongly impressed me about the Scout troops I have encountered, particularly one my son was in, is that they have really, truly appeared to be very broad cross-sections of the local population. The troop included Scouts from a really wide range of income levels, ethnicity, and religion. Planning for camping trips was truly complicated because we had to get kosher foot—not because of our several Jewish scouts, who didn't care, but because of a number of scouts—I'm afraid I don't know their exact ethnicity or religion, but I think they were from India—and their religion had some dietary requirements which were not exactly the same as kosher, but their parents accepted kosher as "close enough." Plans were complicated by the need to coordinate, not only with the familiar holidays and the Jewish holidays, but Eastern Orthodox holidays, Seventh Day Adventists, and I don't remember what-all.

Assuming this is true of Scouting in general, is there any way to document this in the article in a suitably NPOV way? [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith (talk)]] 20:01, 16 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Interesting. I can't say this of the Scouts in my area. Some 20-30% of the general population is of Asian origin, but the proportion in the Scout troops is much lower. Latinos also seem to be underrepresented. --Smack 21:02, 17 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I don't really think you can say this, and I'm a big fan of scouts. One thing to keep in mind is that a SIGNIFICANT portion of scouting (something like 20%? But that's off the top of my head), are Latter Day Saints. That unbalances religion very quickly IMHO. I think that individual areas may be a melting pot type, particulary in some cities (I'm thinking philly and NY here, from personal experience), but in general it's not as common. Lyellin 07:28, Aug 18, 2004 (UTC)
The LDS church uses BSA as a youthgroup. This does significantly sway the religious affilations as a whole. At the same time, these LDS units are not mixed with the non-LDS units. It's not like they church is saying, go join the Scouts. They are starting their own units, providing their own guidence and using BSA as an outline. Does this make the camporees, jamborees, and other multi-unit events heavily LDS? Yes. Does this in any way effect the mix of ethnic or religious affilitations in non-LDS units? No. Just observation. Cavebear42 17:19, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)
It always impressed me as a Scout and it still surprises me today that when we're in uniform, we're all just Scouts and Scouters, not rich/poor, black/white, city/country or anything else. Units tend to reflect their communities or chartered organizations, but at the District level or at summer camp, the organization reaches and embraces all groups. --Habap 20:50, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Texas Categorization

Personally, other than the organization being based in Texas and in the Dallas area, do you guys think the BSA article should have been categorized in those categories? Zscout370 (Sound Off) 17:19, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

  • Hi ZScout - I added those categories. My rational is two-fold:
    1. One of the benefits of the Wiki system in general is to provide cross-references between things that are related to each other, so that people will be able to follow an interesting voyage of discovery.
    2. More specifically, I think this particular categorization makes a lot of sense. From the perspective of the Dallas Fort-Worth area, the presence of BSA headquarters is a tremendous influence on the region. Therefore, the categorization is very useful to people learning about the Dallas Fort-Worth area.
  • Please note by way of analogy that there is a whole sub-sub-category just for companies based in the Dallas Fort-Worth area. Since the BSA is not a company, these were the most appropriate categories to make the connection between the BSA and the area. Johntex 17:39, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
    • I would disagree, the BSA is a company, esp when you are in reference to the national office. the bsa is not-for-profit but has employees and pays salaries, its a company in the biz sense and definatly one in the "a group of people" sense. I would say to list it under Category:Companies based in Texas rather than just Category:Texas because the latter is confusing to have it sitting next to the article on the texas politics or cities. Cavebear42 21:03, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

pinewood derby

Isn't pinewood derby primarily a Cub Scout (as opposed to a Boy Scout) activity? If I'm right (which I am, unless my Cub Scout Pack and my Boy Scout Troop both did things wrong), it should be mentioned in the Cub Scout article rather than here. --Myles Long 21:58, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

Quite right. I have moved it. Thanks. Grika 00:05, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

James E. West

The James E. West linked from this page is a different person. That link goes to the mayor of Spokane, Washington, who was not alive in 1911. I'm not sure what to change the link to, though. Mr2001 06:00, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

But, oddly enough, the politician was also a Scout leader. I've disambigged it. --Smack (talk) 02:38, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

Problem

Hey guys, the Boy Scouts announced that four leaders from Alaska were killed at the National Jamboree today. See http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050726/ap_on_re_us/jamboree_deaths Zscout370 (Sound Off) 03:31, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

List of alumni

I think that we should not have a general list of former Scouts. Out of (I'd guess) two to three hundred million boys who have grown up in the United States in the past one hundred years, one hundred million were Scouts at one time or another. Such a list threatens to immediately become egregiously long, and to contain very little useful information whatsoever. (The list of Eagle Scouts, though, we should keep). --Smack (talk) 04:38, 18 August 2005 (UTC)


Training

Hi guys (new to wiki) I haven't noticed anything on Timberline - JL Training. I'm interested in adding some stuff. akuankka 22:54, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

I went through JLT, but what's Timberline? If you want to add something about that, go ahead. I don't really know what section it belongs in. Just pick one. --Smack (talk) 02:48, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
NYLT (National Youth Leadership Training) is the new program that replaced JLT and is in line with Wood Badge 21. It appears that some councils or districts are calling it Timberline NYLT or Brownsea NYLT.
BSA training really would deserve a separate article. Between the different divisons (Cubs, Scouts, Venturing) and youth/adult, the training program is huge. --Gadget850 14:41, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

Insignia

Someone (it is not obvious to me from a quick scan of the page history who or when) added this insignia with the caption "most frequently used insignia of the BSA". Looking at the associated upload history for that image, its source is some random website not even affiliated with the BSA. No claim is made as to what the copyright status is, which is problematic. I am not familiar with this insignia. I don't think this is really the most frequently used insignia, is it? Can someone provide a reference for that? Can anyone come up with a better caption? Johntex\talk 01:49, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

I was looking also looking at that. The rank images are problematic as well. BSA does have an online guide for the use of symbols [1]. The image in question here is "On My Honor, Timeless Values" [2] and is the current BSA "Strategic Plan identity" image- it has been in use for several years now. While it is used in a lot of publications, I would not say it is most common. "Current BSA identity emblem" would be a better description.
I do think we need to clean up the images and tags on most of the BSA articles. As far as I can tell, BSA allows usage as long as it complies with their copyright and trademark protection [3]. As best I can tell, the appropriate image tag would be logo.
Frankly, I would prefer to use the offical images and tag them as logos attributing the proper copyright and trademark. --Gadget850 11:24, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
J.Steinbock added this picture and I moved it down further in the article and restored the original color BSA logo to the top. I disagree with the caption - although attractive - this is not the most frequently used insignia. We should find out the copyright status of this logo. The original color logo is unlikely to have copyright problems since it has been around for so long it would be in the public domain, and the use of a trademark to properly describe the product or service trademarked doesn't violate any laws. Trödel|talk 11:41, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
Trödel- looks like we replied at the same time. None of the images in question are PD, and are protected by congressional charter as well as trademark and copyright. See above. --Gadget850 12:21, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

The new caption is much better. The image is in danger of being deleted, since it does not have a proper copyright tag. Frankly, I would just as soon see that, and reload it from the official source with the proper name and attribution. Of course, this is if we decide that it is relevant to the article. I'm a bit ambivalent on that, any other thoughts? --Gadget850 00:25, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

My 2 cents: I don't feel strongly about it, but I lean towards including it if has been used widely in the last few years. I agree that it would be preferable to let this one get deleted and reload it from the official source with a proper name and attribution. Johntex\talk 01:20, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

I went ahead and redid it properly. Now, what about the Boyce image? --Gadget850 10:19, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

What is the problem with the Boyce image? Johntex\talk 22:49, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Turtles?

I'm troubled by the recent addition of a link to [4]. For what it's worth, I've never heard of this organization, and the site makes no effort to substantiate itself. Is this really anything more than a pernicious rumor? --Smack (talk) 02:55, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

I've not heard of the organization. I'll remove the link until facts that support it's existence and relevance to the page are posted here. GreggHilferding 18:29, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
It strikes me as vindictive nonsense. --Habap 20:46, 20 January 2006 (UTC)