Talk:Bourgeoisie

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18 June 2007: I'm wondering about this line here: "They eventually allied with the kings in uprooting the feudalist system" It makes no sense, the "kings" did not uproot the feudalist system, in fact Louis XVI was opposed to the revolution and capitalist society.

February 6, 2005 I'm confused about why this is a hard word to define...in coming up with a complex definition, the writers of the page contradict themselves:

Example A: "Bourgeois is a classification used in analyzing human societies to describe a class of people who are in the middle class nobility, whose status or power comes from employment, education, and wealth as opposed to aristocratic origin."

- aristocracy IS nobility. There is not a "contrast" between the two, unless perhaps you're trying to make a distinction using nobility in the moral sense. - middle class nobility? There is no such thing. Middle class is *gasp!* MIDDLE. Not upper.

Example B: Despite the many references to bourgeois meaning anything having to do with privilege, which I presume all stem from the original, and in my opinion, incorrect, Marxist context, the article then refers to bourgeoisie as "merchants and traders." In fact, that _is_ the meaning of the word in both French and English. And, as is probably very obvious, merchants and traders are not, socially speaking, classified as members of the aristocracy/nobility/upper class.

It is my understanding, based on personal education and study, that Americans use the word according to its French usage during the French Revolution. I certainly think there should be something about that time frame and the uprising (overthrowing of the nobility -- which was not done by the nobility!). Also, this usage, both French and American English, significantly predates the work of Marx. Certainly Marx's usage was based on something, and I think it stems from, as Mirriam Webster mentions in their dictionary, the idea that the bourgeois were driven by commercial and industrial interests. This makes sense given their livelihood.

Contents 1 Pre March 2005 comments 2 "Why the revert?" 3 Origins and Rise 4 In Marxism 5 Pejorative Meaning 6 Definition of Bourgeoisie 7 Pronunciation 8 Introductory paragraph needs to get to the point 9 Etymology 10 POV notice 11 The Beat 12 Non-workers, not middle-class 13 Clarification on 'bourgeois' vs 'bourgeoisie' 14 Removed art definition 15 Added control of means of coercion, further discussion needed 16 refs 17 Bourgeoisie 18 Bourgeoisie

[edit] Pre March 2005 comments

This page is inherently incorrect.

Bourgeoisie means MIDDLE class, not upper class. And even in Marx's work, he did not use the term to refer to the upper class, but rather those considered "above" working class, who held traditionally professional jobs, i.e. NOT the upper class, which Marx saw as those in the monarchy/aristocracy/gentry.

• See note at bottom*

Also, the American usage of "bourgeoisie" and "bourgeoise" certainly does not refer to high society or refinement, but rather, the "middle class masses."

There are middle class workers, and they don't belong to bourgeoisie. Bourgeoisie are bussinesmen, employers, private transporters, and current capitalist class, as far as I'm concerned, and it's sub-divided among upper bourgeoisie, petite bourgeoisie, middle bourgeioisie. But whatever the case, a requirement, for belonging this class, is the private owning of production media or bussiness or enterprises of a certain size, that generates capital, and the chance to invest it. I wouldn't even considere the little merchants or modest shop assistants as a part of bourgeoise class, or if do, they would belong to petite bourgeoise class. DeepQuasar 11:04, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Page needs some spelling and grammar work

"In contemporary Marxist parlance, bourgeoisie refers to those who control corporate institutions through majority share holdings, options, trusts, funds, intermediaries or by making public statements regarding market transactions."

This doesn't make sense. With majority share holdings you might have more control over a public corporation the a minority share holder, but again the amount of people with that type of holding is extremely small (and primarily the companies that are owned in this way have no significant power or influence above other companies in their same market cap). The largest "owner" of the means of production today is CALPERS (the california public retirement system). But besides all this, I don't believe owning stock in a company is an example of "ownership" of the means of production that Marx was talking about. There is much less control in stock ownership then outright ownership. The possible negative effects of capitalism almost assuredly still occour in corporations however, because they have a fiduciary duty to constantly increase profit. Stock ownership though causes a disconnect in this, where now the workers who are being exploited might be the largest percentage owner.

• Note*

In the French society, Bourgeois and Bourgeoisie implied Middle class, however, in the US system, it'd be the upper class. The time period and social structure of the French society when the term Bourgeoisie was used, applied to the lords, and 'secondary' people of the government. So in America, pretty much the rich people that go to private schools and can get into politics with much more ease. And, if there were masses of the middle class, wouldn't that imply that they were the majority? I don't feel that I should edit your words, but that there are some word choice issues that I notice.

[edit] "Why the revert?"

Stblbach, why the revert? The change was correct. The entire article is Marxist theory. I have changed it yet again and made another change to try to make it more neutral. Johnwhunt 19:48, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The bourgeoisie is a derisive term from Marxism

To start an article lead sentence with "derisive term", it means the rest of the article needs to support and expand on the idea that bourgeoisie is a pejorative, political and non-neutral term. That would be original research. The article doesnt do that, instead the article simply reports on what Marx said, as it should. In Marxist theory the term is simply a descriptor for a class of people with the pejorative aspect being one facet of his theory. The article is a description of the use of the term in his theory, and the lead paragraph should be a summary of what is contained in the body of the article. If others have called it "derisive" then we can report on that also, with citations and attribution on who (or what partys) said it. I'll await your reply before changing.Stbalbach 22:21, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I have eliminated the word "derisive" based on your comments above. Johnwhunt 23:29, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

You have more problems than that in your changes. Mikkalai 03:14, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

• Not only marxism uses this term.
• "aristocracies" is a correct term it the considered historical context. Mikkalai 03:14, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

• What other theories besides Marxism use the term? Johnwhunt 13:26, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
  • Google is your best friend. But you may start from Columbia Encyclopedia. Mikkalai 21:00, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Went to Google and plowed through the first page of links. All references said it was a Marxist theory term. Are there any other economic theories that use the term? (oh, oh, theories derived from Marxism don't count.) Johnwhunt 21:18, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

It is not a solely marxist theory term. Marxist do put a special meaning into it, but don't "own" it. You say you "plowed" thru first page. The columbia reference is among the very top ones (at least in my google report). Did you read it? If you did and you still insist that it says it is a marxist term, then you have serious problems with comprehension. Many sources do say that in modern political theory the notion is a predominately Marxist one, but the word was in use well before Marx was born. 01:46, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)

From Columbia Encyclopedia in its entirity:

"(brzhwäz´) (KEY) , originally the name for the inhabitants of walled towns in medieval France; as artisans and craftsmen, the bourgeoisie occupied a socioeconomic position between the peasants and the landlords in the countryside. The term was extended to include the middle class of France and subsequently of other nations. The word bourgeois has also long been used to imply an outlook associated with materialism, narrowness, and lack of culture—these characteristics were early satirized by Molière and have continued to be a subject of literary analysis.

[edit] Origins and Rise

From Columbia Encyclopedia in its entirity (cont.)

The bourgeoisie as a historical phenomenon did not begin to emerge until the development of medieval cities as centers for trade and commerce in Central and Western Europe, beginning in the 11th cent. The bourgeoisie, or merchants and artisans, began to organize themselves into corporations as a result of their conflict with the landed proprietors. At the end of the Middle Ages, under the early national monarchies in Western Europe, the bourgeoisie found it in their interests to support the throne against the feudal disorder of competing local authorities. In England and the Netherlands, the bourgeoisie was the driving force in uprooting feudalism in the late 16th and early 17th cent.

In the 17th and 18th cent., the bourgeoisie supported principles of constitutionality and natural right, against the claims of divine right and against the privileges held by nobles and prelates. The English, American, and French revolutions derived partly from the desire of the bourgeoisie to rid itself of feudal trammels and royal encroachments on personal liberty and on the rights of trade and property. In the 19th cent., the bourgeoisie, triumphantly propounding liberalism, gained political rights as well as religious and civil liberties. Thus modern Western society, in its political and also in its cultural aspects, owes much to bourgeois activities and philosophy.

Subsequent to the Industrial Revolution, the class greatly expanded, and differences within it became more distinct, notably between the high bourgeois (industrialists and bankers) and the petty bourgeois (tradesmen and white-collar workers). By the end of the 19th cent., the capitalists (the original bourgeois) tended to be associated with a widened upper class, while the spread of technology and technical occupations was opening the bourgeoisie to entry from below.

Prof Kouji Miyazaki has written a book on the "Origin of the Rich" investigating the rise of the bourgeosie in Northern France, claiming that they originated when farmers and craftsmen started saving to have prayers said for them post death at churches and monasteries. The funds that they saved for this purpose, were used during their lives as business working capital. --Timtak 05:46, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] In Marxism

From Columbia Encyclopedia in its entirity (cont.)

Within Karl Marx’s theory of class struggle, the bourgeoisie plays a significant role. By overthrowing the feudal system it is seen as an originally progressive force that later becomes a reactionary force as it tries to prevent the ascendency of the proletariat (wage earners) in order to maintain its own position of predominance. Some writers argue that Marx’s theory fails because he did not foresee the rise of a new, expanded middle class of professionals and managers, which, although they are wage earners, do not fit easily into his definition of the proletariat."

So, let me ask again, what other economic theories not related to Marx use the term as shown in the wiki article?

My problem with the article is that it is not a neutral POV and is almost entirely Marxist political theory. That's alright by me if it is properly designated. Which it is not. So by not being neutral and spouting only Marxist theory, the article becomes propaganda, which is another violation of the wiki rules. Johnwhunt 14:39, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Marxist theory is placed into a separate section, cleary titled "B in MT" I don't see nothing non-neutral. You are free to expand the pre-marxist part. As for your question "what other...", at this point I don't know and don't care. My only point is that you cannot say in the very first sentence of the whole article that it is marxist term and nothing else. Back to your question: again, I don't know about modern theories, but I guess the term was is use during the French Revolution, and I see no reasons why modern theories other than Marxism could not operate with it in non-necessarily marxist sense. Mikkalai 19:48, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Taken from the article "middle class" in Wikipedia: "For Marxist views on this class, compare bourgeoisie. Note that this is not the same thing asmiddle class." Johnwhunt 17:20, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)

So what? In marxism theory "B" is a narrowly defined term: class that owns means of production. It may also be used as a derogatory term, just like the way the medical word imbecile is mostly known for most of laymen. Feel free to cover this aspect as well, possibly in a subsection.

I have to agree that the intro to the article is poorly written and misleading, but assigning the word solely to Marxism would make it even worse.Mikkalai 19:48, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Well, let me give it a shot and let's go from there. Johnwhunt 20:14, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The intro is better IMO, but please restore all Marxist text you deleted. It is an explanation of Marxist POV and of encyclopedic value, even if most people do not agree with it. Please read WP:NPOV policy carefully. Also, I am not going to edit this article, but your text about who uprooted whom and about values will most probably be deleted.

Please never do massive changes on complex and controversial subjects. Work piece by piece, so that people have chance to discuss the value of your contributions. Deleting big chunks without explanations is also a wrong approach. Mikkalai 23:00, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I have read the NPOV articles and found nothing to indicate the article as written violates that. I would appreciate your guiding me toward the parts you want me to read, perhaps by posting them here for all to see.

I am not saying the current article violates it. I am saying the previous one did not, despite an exsessive amount of marxism in it. The corresponding section clearly indicates that it describes marxist POV. Mikkalai

I did not reduce the Marxist part of the article because of a dislike of Marxism. I did it because the article is about "Bourgeoisie", not "Marxism". There are significant references to Marxism, Marxist and related theories and writings in the article. The article has five long and two short paraghraphs. Marxism is mentioned in the first (introductory) long paragraph and is the sole subject of two long paragraphs. All of the related topics, the references and the external link are Marxist.

So what? You have no right to cut it away without explanations. And the explanation "it is too much" is inadmissible. Mikkalai 18:59, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I think it would be easier to argue the article is too Marxist than not Marxist enough.

Also, you stated above that the comments concerning "uprooting" and "values" will almost certainly be deleted. Why? They came from Columbia Encyclopedia in the article I posted above. Johnwhunt 18:40, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)

OK. some details. I am not a historian, and as I said, I am not going to significantly edit the article. Also I am not am educator to teach you. But here are two suspicious phrases.

In the late Middle Ages, they supported nobility in uprooting feudalism.

Why would nobility want to uproot feudalism? Nobility fed off feudalism. Mikkalai 18:59, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Concepts such as personal liberties, religious and civil rights, and the freedom to live and trade all derive from bourgeois philsophies.

Extremely dubious and ungrounded. Mikkalai 18:59, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)

But the bourgeoisie were never without their detractors.

Detractors from what? Bourgeois were normal people. Some good, some bad, some generous, some greedy. Moliere was making fun of them, but others were making fun off puffy aristocrats and arrogant church. All this "trait" section must be presented as a point of view of certain categories of people rather than indisputable facts. Mikkalai 18:59, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Pejorative Meaning

I don't think it's just communist cultures in which bourgeoisie becomes a pejorative term for wealthy or high class people. I think even here in the states calling someone bourgeoisie is an insult. I'd bet many a fight here in the states got started with someone calling someone else bourgeoisie.
JesseG 01:50, August 1, 2005 (UTC)

Yes, but that's because in the English-speaking world it is a purely left-wing term for middle class which has almost entirely pejorative usage. It's only function is to serve as an insult. English speaking non-socialists don't need the word as we are happy to use "middle class". Twittenham 09:42, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

I asked for an example of a language where bourgeios is not pejorative. I know for a fact that it is in mine. Prezen 11:59, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Definition of Bourgeoisie

Bourgeoisie: Originally named for the inhabitants of walled lawns in medieval France. As artisan and craftsmen, they occupied a socialeconomic level between peasants and rural land workers.

Sorry, the above was atrocious. I hope I preserved the original person's intent.

[edit] Pronunciation

How is it hard for a native English speaker to pronounce 'bourgeois' or 'bourgeoisie'?

It's not. Still most people pronounce it incorrectly due to the spelling, Burg-ee-oys is how most people try to say it. Bourgeoisdude 18:46, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

I have never had problems, nor have most of the other native speakers of English I know, in pronouncing the word correctly. This entry seems rather unsubstantiated editorial, and so should be removed. The rest of the passage "it is not used as often in politics in English speaking countries as in other Western ones, and is not in common use in the United States. From the late nineteenth century through the Great Depression, the pronunciation "bushwah" was used in political satire portraying radical leftists. Critic H. L. Mencken coined the portmanteau "booboisie" to label middle America, which he viewed as conventional and unintellectual" seems to be more an under-handed diatribe against anglophones than a useful exploration of the orgin of the word as the section heading implies. It should also be removed. Kemet 16 March 2006

"I have never had problems, nor have most of the other native speakers of English I know, in pronouncing the word correctly. This entry seems rather unsubstantiated editorial, and so should be removed." I think the issue is just in the way the sentence is worded; all the phonetic sounds in the word exist in english, but as Bourgeoisdude said, it's just people that have no experience with french letter combinations (or just french in general) would naturally prounounce it 'boor-gee-oy-see' (or some similar variant). I don't believe it doesn't really need to be removed, but instead reworded.--Charibdis 04:18, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

I for one looked up the word here to see how it was pronounced :)

I always thought it was "boo-zhwah-ZEE"

Awesimo 00:44, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

In re "all the phonetic sounds in the word exist in english", all except the French "r" sound. Can Anglophones hear the difference between trois and toi? Jack Waugh 14:44, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Introductory paragraph needs to get to the point

"Bourgeoisie is a French word." I'm not an expert on this subject, but I think we can do better than that. After reading the whole first paragraph, the reader still hasn't been told what bourgeois is. Maybe someone more familiar with the subject could summarise the meaning in a few concise sentences and replace that as the introductory paragraph. The etymology maybe could be placed elsewhere in the article. A Pattern O 19:43, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

I really like the last sentence, should we use it for the introduction instead of the conclusion? "According to these interpretations, the bourgeoisie is composed of any individuals who have exclusive control over the means of production, regardless whether this control comes in the form of private ownership or state power." ~Freddie

[edit] Etymology

The 2nd paragraph of the etymology section is false. Both M-W and AHD gives the etymology of the French word as from (Late) Latin burgus, from Germanic *burgs , "hill-fort", cf. borough. --Salleman 12:34, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] POV notice

I have added some comments on usage to the opening paragraph, which sounded like it came straight out of a left wing textbook, but I am still not happy with the article, which does not really really recognise that in the English-speaking world the term is highly rhetorical and just not used by most people. Twittenham 09:40, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

"It is interesting to find out how much wealth he created for himself by this theory." Was removed for obvious POV. Source if you've found this in a source somewhere. Otherwise, who finds it interesting, and why? Sources on this, otherwise it comes across as POV.

[edit] The Beat

The person who wrote this article needs to reconsider the mindset of Karl Marx when he founded Communism. He was not lenient toward the upper class, so then why would Bourgeoisie be preoccupied with property values and other affairs that are adherently connected with the upper class? Think this over. You guys are retarded. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.172.230.12 (talk) 16:44, 8 January 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Non-workers, not middle-class

Bourgeoisie simply refers to those in the class spectrum who don't work (unlike the proletariat), and do not wield any political or military power. And personally, I don't see why members of the bourgeoisie have to get so indignant about the word, considering how there are so many insults that they have made for the workers.

Basically, the Bourgeoisie/Proletariat scheme has nothing to do with the Rich/Middle-class/Poor scheme, as there can be poor Bourgeoisie and rich Proletarians. But for the most part, due to our class system, a great majority of the Proletariat are poor and most of the Bourgeoisie are rich. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.155.243.126 (talk) 04:44, 26 January 2007 (UTC).

Well, then we have a concurring voice that Bourgeoisie is a slur word in Marxist parlance. Prezen 06:39, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

not necessairly. I think what anon was attempting to point out is that the Marxist concept of 'Bourgeoisie' has more to do with ownership of the means of production- with being a Businessman- than it has to do with how wealthy you are. For example, somone starting a company could be called Bourgeoisie, even if his income was quite low (as income often is in the begining.) Luke S. Crawford 01:21, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

They don't work in physical terms, by using or requiring physical strengh to develop their usual function or job. Maybe they do are the whole day making calcules, bussiness or managing enterprise and overviewing/controlling employees, tasks, production rythm, etc., either directly or indirectly, but from above to below. That's what they most often do, since it's the basis of their material conditions, their economy and lifestyle. That is actually what makes them 'bourgeoisie'. DeepQuasar 11:13, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

It is absolutely a slur word and I use it quite frequently --Kelt65 18:31, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

This anon's definition sounds right to me; I've always been taught that this is the Marxist use of the term. However, that doesn't mean that the article has to reflect that POV (see POV tag section above). Nyttend 12:05, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Correct. The bourgeoisie belongs to a different typology than upper/middle/lower class. It would be best to separate different analysises in different sections, and not clutter the intro that much. --LC 19:00, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Clarification on 'bourgeois' vs 'bourgeoisie'

What is the difference between bourgeois (bor-zwha) and bourgeoisie (bor-zwaa-zee )? Wikipedia redirects 'bourgeois' to this article and gives both pronunciations, but does not explain why there are two spellings/pronunciations for this word. Is it singular/plural, masculine/feminine, etc? Overlook1977 14:22, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Further research suggests 'bourgeois' is an adjective and 'bourgeoisie' is a noun. Perhaps someone more knowledgeable on this topic can clarify this on the main article? Overlook1977 15:03, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Bourgeois is both an adjetive and the singular noun of bourgeoisie. (75.74.196.215 22:22, 3 August 2007 (UTC))

I don't think anyone would refer to the Bourgeoisie in the singular form, rather than "he is Bourgeois" more likely is "he is a member of the bourgeoisie". Therefore I agree with first definition: Bourgeois - adjective Bourgeoisie - Proper noun

[edit] Removed art definition

Hello all. I've just removed the following sentence from the intro:

", but in English-speaking countries usage of the word as a term of art is associated with those with socialist or anti-capitalist political leanings."

It's not cited and doesn't make sense. Since when has bourgeois art meant anti-capitalist? Dissident members of the bourgeoisie may have adopted anti-capitalist attitudes (Marx being one of them), but its by no means a definition of the term. DionysosProteus 12:31, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Ah, 'term of art' doesn't actually have anything to do with what you might find in an art museum. The phrase 'term of art' means that the word has specific meanings in a particular context, i.e., it's jargon. For example, most of the terms that non-lawyers refer to as 'legalese' are formally called 'terms of art'.

Check this page for more info- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technical_terminology —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.188.62.227 (talk) 19:00, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Added control of means of coercion, further discussion needed

Added reference to control of armed forces. Definitely lacking throughout the article. Although Marx and Engels were primarily concerned with developing the economics and philosophical sides of communism, they also acknowledged that the political superstructure was an extension of the bourgeoisie's control of the economy. This was particularly evident in their works after the failure of the French proletariat in 1848. See "The Class Struggle in France, 1848 to 1850" (http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1850/class-struggles-france/index.htm) and "The Eighteenth Brumaire of Louis Bonaparte" (http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1852/18th-brumaire/index.htm). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Njfuller (talk • contribs) 05:25, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] refs

This article is completely reference less. The {{Fact}} tags will only highlight this situation. No negatives present. Please tell me what is so bad about the tag. It can only help. Moreover this is such an important term. The better to call attention to its woeful OR--72.93.80.5 (talk) 22:35, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Bourgeoisie

In Marxist theory the class that in contrast to the ptoletariat or wage earning is primatily concerned with property values.

[edit] Bourgeoisie

In Marxist theory the class that in contrast to the ptoletariat or wage earning is primatily concerned with property values. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.174.73.181 (talk) 23:12, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

This is generally a very poor quality article, it should be rectified. It is a disgrace. This is coming from a historian. I will clean this mess up once my exams are over. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Qwertysocks (talk • contribs) 10:30, 30 May 2008 (UTC)