Talk:Bourbon whiskey

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[edit] Theodore J. Who?

The story about Theodore J. Queenan is recently added, without a citation to a source. While my research says it's likely the first distilling in what is now Kentucky was done at Harrodsburg, I haven't heard it specifically attributed to any Theodore J. Queenan. I googled the name and the reference here was the only hit. I didn't delete the story, but I may soon. I'd sure like to see a source. Cowdery (talk) 02:08, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] History info is a mess

It looks like there is a significant amount of debate about where exactly bourbon was invented, and the only description of its history is a copyrighted quotation. We shouldn't have such a large quotation, and there should be more backing for this article. Or, at least, there needs to be a better indication that any description of the "true history of bourbon" is debateable, and that most of the history is more legendary than factual.

I could rewrite it, but I don't have the time now. I might come back in a few days to fix it. This article seems to have a good beginning: [1]Pageblank 22:14, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

I cleaned it up some and cited the quote, correctly, to my book (although the wording in the book is slightly different than the earlier article originally cited, but those are my words nonetheless). If such a long quote is still stylistically inappropriate, someone can let me know and I'll rewrite it for here and we can cite it but dispense with the quote. Cowdery 22:20, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
Hello. I changed the formatting to use a curly quote template that tends to be a little more readable for long quoted blocks of text like that. I personally don't see a problem with that, so long as you are comfortable with and are legally permitted to release that text under the WP:GFDL license. I know that sometimes publishers restrict the rights of authors and what they can do with their texts once it has been published. If that is the case, it would be better to re-write the section. You should also be aware of Wikipedia's conflict of interest guidelines--not that I see anything wrong with this edit, but since you obviously have a lot of knowledge on the topic, you wouldn't want to run afoul of any rules accidentally. Have a great day! --Willscrlt (Talk|Cntrb) 06:37, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

I control all rights to all of my writing and I don't believe I have run afoul of Wikipedia's conflict-of-interest guidelines. I didn't put the quote here, someone else did, I'm just retroactively granting permission for it to stay and making sure it's cited properly. Cowdery 03:52, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Someone, however, changed "American Revolution" in the quote to "Rebellion of the American Colonies." Very funny. Who changes a direct quote? I changed it back. Cowdery (talk) 22:57, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Yes.., Dant is still around

Does anyone know if the Dant distillery is still in business? If memory serves, it was somewhere near Clermont.

Rlquall 19:10, 17 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I have a J.W. Dant distilled in Bardstown, KY at my liquor store. Not sure if it's the original or not.

Members of the Dant family operated many distilleries, none of which are in operation today. The J.W. Dant brand is owned by Heaven Hill Distillery. The original J. W. Dant Distillery, RD#169, was in Marion County, Kentucky. Cowdery 22:24, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Please can someone tell me what makes scotch and bourbon different? is it the malting process or something else?

There are many stylistic differences between scotch and bourbon, but the most significant are the grains used and the way they are aged. Single malt scotch is made from 100% malted barley and although grain whiskey (for blended scotch) may use other grains, the distinctive taste of any scotch comes from the malted barley. Bourbon is mostly corn, at least 51% by law and in practice more like 75%, with rye or wheat and a small amount (about 10%) of malted barley. As for aging, bourbon is always aged in new charred oak barrels, whereas scotch usually is aged in used barrels, usually used bourbon barrels, in fact. Cowdery 22:24, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Rev. Elijah Craig: inventor or not?

OK, so in this article we have this:

Some stories about its origins there are not true, such as its purported invention by Baptist minister and distiller Elijah Craig.

But, in the Bourbon County, Kentucky article, we have this:

Bourbon whiskey, named for the county, was first distilled within its borders by the Rev. Elijah Craig in the early 19th century.

I'm not an expert in such matters. Which one is correct? References in any debate would be helpful, thanks. --NightMonkey 20:25, August 12, 2005 (UTC)

Elijah Craig was prominent in the founding of a school that was eventually to become (after Craig's death) Georgetown College in Georgetown, KY, which at that time was within the borders of Bourbon County. Later, Scott County was created as a separate county out of a portion of Bourbon County, and Georgetown became its county seat. This connection of E. Craig to Bourbon County is factual. I am a native of this area (and as such I can hardly claim NPOV), and we were always taught that Craig invented bourbon whiskey. Whether he truly invented the process may be open to speculation; on a recent tour of the Woodford Reserve distillery near Versailles I was told a different history. Dismissing outright Craig's claim as untrue, especially without any supporting evidence, seems non-neutral. Of course it may have been a simultaneous application of techniques by multiple, contemporary distillers. --BAW 01:25, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
The durable but unsubstantiated claim that Elijah Craig "invented" bourbon can be traced to Richard Collins and his 1874 History of Kentucky. Collins does not identify Craig by name, but writes that "the first Bourbon Whiskey was made in 1789, at Georgetown, at the fulling mill at the Royal spring." This claim is included, without elaboration or substantiation, on a densely-packed page of "Kentucky Firsts." Since Craig operated "the fulling mill at the Royal spring" in that year, the "invention" is attributed to him. There are several major problems with the claim. First, what made Craig's whiskey different from the other whiskey made in the region? Second, the Georgetown site was never in Bourbon County, so if the place name and the whiskey have to go together, Craig cannot be the originator. In fact, the name "bourbon whiskey" was applied to all whiskey from the region beginning early in the century but the style of whiskey we now call bourbon didn't really evolve until many years later, in about the middle of the century. The Craig claim has been convenient for various people for various reasons, but historically it is completely unsupported. Cowdery 22:42, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] this wikipedia story is incorrect

While there is a Bourbon County Kentucky, Bourbon did not originate there. Bourbon is made in the original Bourbon County, which stretched, from Virginia to what now is Kentucky. Remember Bourbon(the drink) significantly predates the Commonwealth of Kentucky. Bourbon County, Kentucky is named after the original Bourbon (now obsolete) County. Though the boundaries are now politically obsolete it still defines the area in which bourbon can be made. This is why Virginia getleman is still a legitimate Bourbon.

[edit] Bourbon must be produced in KY

We seem to be on the verge of a revision war over this subject, so I hope people who feel compelled to insert once again some statement to the effect that "Bourbon must be produced in Kentucky" will read at least this section of the discussion page before doing so. I am inserting this preface here, but am otherwise leaving the discussion on this topic alone.Cowdery 03:06, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

This is the first I have heard that a true bourbon may be produced outside of Kentucky. Everything I have read previously states that to be called bourbon, the whiskey is required by law to be produced in Kentucky, along with other mandated criteria including standards of proof, aging, and that bourbon use charred (never new) oak barrels in the aging process. - DanDan 17:03, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Statute?

Would you please provide the current statute which states; that to be called bourbon, it is required to be produced in Kentucky. Many have made this claim, but I have yet to ever see any state or federal code validating this assertion.

John Donnchadha 16:04, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

The standards of identity for distilled spirits are contained in Title 27, Section 5 of the United States Code of Federal Regulations. If you look at the regulations, you will see that there is no requirement that bourbon be made in Kentucky. Bourbon may be made anywhere in the United States.

No!! Bourbon can be made anywhere; however, for it to have a name such as "Kentucky Straight Bourbon Whiskey," it must be distilled in Kentucky. No other alcoholic beverage has such a law.

There is no "law" to this effect, so the above statement is incorrect. However, all labels for distilled spirits products sold in the United States must be approved in advance by the TTB and they apply, among other things, basic truth in advertising standards, so a bourbon cannot be labeled "Kentucky" bourbon unless it is both distilled in Kentucky and aged there. I believe, however, that after two years it can be shipped out of state to continue aging and still be called "Kentucky" bourbon. This particular false belief, that bourbon can only be made in Kentucky, dies hard. However, even as late as the 1960s there was a large amount of bourbon made in Illinois. In the past, bourbon has been made in Pennsylvania (The A. H. Hirsch bourbon, for example), Ohio, Indiana, Missouri and other states. Cowdery 22:15, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

The federal "Standards of Identity for Distilled Spirits" (Title 27, Section 5) addresses "geographical designations" at 5.22(k), but the gist of it is: "Geographical names for distinctive types of distilled spirits shall not be applied to distilled spirits produced in any other place than the particular region indicated by the name." Cowdery 01:36, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Is it bourbon if the mash bill contains more than 79% corn?

In order to avoid a reversion war, I'll try to address this here. It has been asserted that a whiskey containing 80% or greater corn in its mash must be labelled 'corn whiskey' and not 'bourbon.' 27 CFR 5.22(b)(1)(i) and (ii) were supplied as evidence.

From 27 CFR 5.22(b)(1): Paragraph (i) concerns itself with the labelling of 'Bourbon whisky', 'rye whisky', 'malt whiskey, and 'rye malt whiskey'. It states that bourbon whisky must be distilled from a mash of more than 50% corn and stored in charred new oak containers.

Paragraph (ii) concerns itself with the labelling of 'corn whisky'. It states that bourbon whisky must be distilled from a mash of more than 80% corn and stored in used or uncharred new oak containers and not subjected in any manner to treatment with charred wood.

It is clear that a product distilled from a mash with 80% or greater corn content and stored in charred new oak containers qualifies as a bourbon under (b)(1)(i) and does not qualify as a corn whisky under (b)(1)(ii).

Please also see [http://home.netcom.com/~cowdery/articles/suites.html Tasting Suites: Bourbon Tasting with a Purpose] by Charles K. Cowdery in which he states "I.W. Harper has a very high percentage of corn in its mash, about 86 percent..."

Aha, you're right of course! I was confused. And frankly I'm still a bit confused. The regulation appears to leave undefined a) whiskeys more than 80% corn stored in charred barrels and b) whiskeys 51%-80% corn stored in untreated barrels. I wonder if such whiskeys are made, and how they would be classified if they were. Perhaps it's just illegal to use these methods? 65.23.171.130
Whiskey of 80% greater corn stored in charred barrels can be labeled bourbon if the barrels are new, it can be labeled corn whiskey if the barrels are used. It isn't illegal to distill a spirit from a mash of 51%-80% corn and store it in untreated barrels. It just cannot be labeled either bourbon or corn whiskey.

[edit] "Bourbon can be legally made anywhere in the U.S."

This is flat-out wrong. At least in Tennessee, and in most of the rest of the Southen U.S., distillation is legal only in a few counties (three, I think, in Tennessee as of now). This is not to say that it does not go on in other counties, of course, just that it does not occur there legally. I think what is meant is that, contrary to a widely-held opinion, there is no federal law restricting the production of bourbon to Kentucky only. (No bourbons are made in Tennessee, however, only two "Tennessee whiskeys" and a rum.) Rlquall 15:53, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure about the later portion; in Memphis, there is a desert known as the Tennessee Bourbon Pie. (Unfortunately, no Wiki article for it exists yet, but there's several google links.) This raises questions as to where the Bourbon in the original recipe came from. (Was Bourbon once legally made in TN or has all Bourbon made in TN been moon shining?) Jon 16:37, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] History of bourbon as told to me

I am born and raised in Kentucky. Though this does not make me a historian of bourbon, I wanted to tell the history as it was explained to me.

Bourbon was (at first) a clear liquor, looking a lot like vodka. However, at one point, a distiller who made bourbon had a fire in his barn where he stored his barrels, and they were all chared because of this. It was too late in the season, and he used the barrels anyhow to store the bourbon. When they were ready, he put them in the river, and floated them on down. When they got to new orleans, the people flipped over the new liquor. It had a new flavor, and a distinct color due to the chared barrels.

Can anyone else verify this story with me?

This is one of many popular myths. The main reason whiskey was not aged in the early days was because people were happy to buy it and drink it unaged. The benefits of aging spirits have been known since antiquity and didn't need to be "discovered" in 19th century Kentucky.

But the brown color of burbon. Was this something that came from charred barrels, and accidentally discovered?

Children are told many stories and the above is just that, a story. A nice one, but not true. The benefits of aging spirits in oak were well known, but not generally practiced for economic reasons. Charring barrels was also a familiar practice, to sanitize a barrel so it could be used again. The benefits of aging spirits in charred barrels were also known. In about the middle of the 19th century, Kentucky distillers began to use new charred oak barrels for aging because the combination of a new barrel and charring gave the whiskey the maximum benefit in terms of color and flavor. Yes, all of the color in bourbon comes from the wood. Cowdery 22:05, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Spelling - whiskey/whisky

I have noticed that most Bourbon makers spell it whiskey, but not all. Maker's Mark is a notable exception. [2] --rogerd 23:38, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Invalid numbers - Which is it?

"It is distilled to no more than 160 (U.S.) proof, and aged in new charred oak barrels for at least two years" vs. "Bourbon must be put into the barrels at no more than 125 U.S. proof." These statements seem contradictory. MrZaiustalk 16:15, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

if the text is mostly correct, my guess would be that it leaves the barrels at no more than 125 U.S. proof, and then adjusted to 80–100 proof and bottled.--Edgjerp 10:50, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm drinking a glass of Booker's at the moment which is legally marked at 126.6 proof, and is also (legally) marketed as a bourbon. the 125 proof limitation is un-cited and flat out wrong. I'd change it, but, i don't really exist. --doesn't exist

To clarify, the whiskey can come off the still at up to 160 proof, but since it has to go into the barrel at no more than 125 proof, water is added to reduce it to at least that proof. Then water is added again, after aging is completed and the barrels have been dumped, to reduce it to bottling proof. Since a whiskey's proof may rise during aging, barrel-proof whiskeys such as Booker's and George Stagg can exceed 125 proof. Cowdery 22:00, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Please add URL to your Link list

As our contribution to Wikipedia's probably unintended, but nevertheless growing, collection of American whiskey folklore and legend, we believe readers would enjoy also visiting our (non-commercial) website dedicated to just that subject, along with documentation of our personal visits to various American whiskey distillery sites, current and defunct. Our URL is...

http://www.ellenjaye.com

Thank you, --Jeffelle 04:28, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fact check?

A statement reading:

Some jurisdictions, mostly in the United States, do not allow alcoholic beverages with over 40% alcohol content to be sold. However, the recent trend among distillers has been to return to higher proofs, and even “cask strength” bottlings."

was removed today, but there are a handful of weak soruces I've been able to find that indicate that Ohio limits grocery store sales of spirits to a maximum of 80 proof. Haven't been able to find anything authoritative enough to put into the article, but it'd be nice to have someone verify that the statement is false before removing it. Ditto on the trend to up the alcohol content. - Restoring and requesting citation. Then we can pop it off in a week or two if no citation can be found or remove it immediately if we can confirm its invalidity. MrZaiustalk 16:13, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Ohio law WRT to spirits sales is peculiar in that distilled spirits bottled at 21% alcohol-by-volume or less may be sold in grocery stores and other general merchandise stores, whereas distilled spirits bottled at more than 21% ABV may be sold only in state controlled liquor stores. The Ohio Liquor Control Board's web site (http://www.liquorcontrol.ohio.gov/liquor.htm) isn't very good, but this information can be teased out of it. So, basically, grocery stores can't sell anything above 42 proof (21% abv), which hardly makes the restored statement true.

Federal law sets a minimum of 80 proof for spirits such as whiskey, same cite as the other "Standards of Identity" mentioned. Whiskey may be bottled and sold at less than 80 proof, but it has to be labeled as "diluted" and, in fact, in Ohio grocery stores you can buy this diluted bourbon, gin, vodka, etc., but in the "state stores" (now agency stores) you can buy all of the normal stuff.

The facts are that all straight whiskey (bourbon, rye, etc.) sold in the United States, with the "diluted" exception noted above, is 80 proof or higher and, in fact, 80 is the most common proof, whereas 100 is "full proof" historically and still common, and there are bourbons sold today at as high as 142 proof (a particular release of George T. Stagg).

I don't know of any US jurisdiction where spirits bottled at more than 40% abv cannot be sold, except for those where no alcohol of any kind can be sold. The only proof-based restriction of which I am aware is the Ohio one cited above. Mr. Ziaus mentions "a handful of weak sources" but doesn't cite any of them. I don't see why you need a citation to delete something that is both wrong and irrelevant, in that even if it was true (which it's not) it wouldn't play a big part in the overall story.Cowdery 20:12, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Main thing I was concerned about was that it might be something the original author had a valid source for - all I found were a couple of week blog and forum posts that implied the above. However, if it hasn't been sourced yet, I'd definitely say axe it. I didn't mean to let it stand for three weeks, but I've been distracted making sure the witches don't take over. ;) MrZaiustalk 00:24, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Things that should be added

A couple of things that should probably be added to the article:

  1. Bourbon's characteristic "sweet" flavor, in contrast to Scotch, rye, an other forms of whiskey--where does it come from?
  2. How is it properly drunk? Adding a little cold water, soda, or neat?

Are there bourbon experts out there who know the answers to these questions? Badagnani 06:36, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] No more than 79% corn?

Is it true, as the Corn whiskey article states, that bourbon may consist of no more than 79% corn? Badagnani 06:38, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

No. This is a common mistake. The regulations set a minimum, 51%, for the amount of corn in a bourbon mash, but no maximum. Many people assume that if the mash is 80% corn or more, it's not bourbon but corn whiskey. However, the difference between the two is how they are aged. Bourbon must be aged in new, charred oak barrels. For corn whiskey, there is no requirement that it be aged at all but, if it is, it must be aged in new uncharred or used barrels. In other words, if you make whiskey from 80+% corn and aged it in new charred wood, it's bourbon; in new uncharred or used wood, it's corn whiskey. Cowdery 16:05, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Is the aging process required or not?

The last bullet point in the beginning of the article (Aged in new American, charred oak barrels for a minimum of two years.) seems to contradict the next paragraph: (Likewise the maturation process is not a legal requirement for a whiskey to be called "bourbon," but it is a legal requirement for "straight bourbon.")

From [http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=21224b7c634d83e0fa329bfd18bb85dc&rgn=div8&view=text&node=27:1.0.1.1.3.3.25.2&idno=27 (the first reference) (emphasis mine):

(1)(i) “Bourbon whisky”, “rye whisky”, “wheat whisky”, “malt whisky”, or “rye malt whisky” is whisky produced at not exceeding 160° proof from a fermented mash of not less than 51 percent corn, rye, wheat, malted barley, or malted rye grain, respectively, and stored at not more than 125° proof in charred new oak containers; and also includes mixtures of such whiskies of the same type.

(iii) Whiskies conforming to the standards prescribed in paragraphs (b)(1)(i) and (ii) of this section, which have been stored in the type of oak containers prescribed, for a period of 2 years or more shall be further designated as “straight”; for example, “straight bourbon whisky”, “straight corn whisky”, and whisky conforming to the standards prescribed in paragraph (b)(1)(i) of this section, except that it was produced from a fermented mash of less than 51 percent of any one type of grain, and stored for a period of 2 years or more in charred new oak containers shall be designated merely as “straight whisky”. No other whiskies may be designated “straight”. “Straight whisky” includes mixtures of straight whiskies of the same type produced in the same State.

I didn't edit the article since I'm not really sure if I'm reading this all correctly, but it seems:

Bourbon Whiskey is aged in charred barrels for an undefined period of time.

Straight Bourbon Whiskey is aged in charred barrels for two years or more. 24.21.149.53 (talk) 01:40, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

The rules clearly require that bourbon be aged in new, charred barrels but they don't say for how long. In practice, the minimum appears to be three months. There is a product on the market now called "Baby Bourbon" that is three months old, and the TTB approved that label. Cowdery (talk) 23:02, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Rip Van Winkle Photo

This is a purely promotional photo. Discuss. 842U (talk) 14:29, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Casks of Bourbon

The image I put in was not intended to promote the brand (being a "non-drinker" myself) but was just to show the same idea as the Buffalo Trace Distillery casks that you reworded the caption on. I am even willing to leave it out as I have no intention to promote any brand AND especially any alcholic beverages. I just happen to have taken the factory tour and took some pictures of the facilities. I just thought the casks looked neat stacked up like that and thought that was the way all the bourbon facilities stacked casks. It certainly was not to promote the brand of Four Roses as I have no interest in it. I'll leave your image in of Buffalo Trace Distillery casks however. I will not edit any further on this particular article. --Doug talk 23:17, 22 February 2008 (UTC)


[edit] straight bourbon

The issue of straight bourbon, aging and labeling is difficult to understand and explain. Let's get some citations for these suppositions:

  • If it meets all the other criteria, and has been aged two years, it can be called "straight bourbon."
  • A "duration of aging" label is only required for bourbons aged less than four years -- aged longer and it requires no "duration of aging label.
  • A Straight bourbon isn't required by law to carry a label saying its 'straight boubon' Rfbreeden (talk) 12:35, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

See above. The citations are all there. The first two points are explicitly in the Standards of Identity, cited throughout this page and in the article. The third point is clear on reading the rules, but it's moot since virtually all bourbons sold are straight bourbon and virtually all of them use the words "straight bourbon" on the label. If you don't see the words "straight bourbon" but you also do not find an age statement, then it must, logically, be straight bourbon since the rules require an age statement for any bourbon less than four years old.Cowdery (talk) 23:07, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] "health benefits"

will someone a little more experienced than me please either clean remove this section or move the statement about folklore into history.

Unless a scientific paper on the health benefits of a certain type of whiskey can be produced this is not constructive at all. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.222.214.63 (talk) 12:02, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree and I'm going to take the bold step to remove it. Any health claims related to bourbon are exactly the same as the health claims, and health risks, related to every other alcoholic beverage.Cowdery (talk) 23:10, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] a tendancy toward the promotional

This article keeps tending to include gratuitous external links and flowery statements basically promoting bourbon, Kentucky or some other special interest group.

Wikipedia is all about npov. 842U (talk) 11:50, 24 March 2008 (UTC)