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This page was previously nominated for deletion. Please see prior discussions before considering re-nomination: Speedy keep (reform on talk page), 5 June 2008, see discussion. Withdrawn, 8 May 2008, see discussion. Keep (reform), 1 May 2007, see discussion.

Shortcut: WT:BAG

Archives
Archive 1 August, 2006 and earlier
Archive 2 September, 2006—March, 2007
Archive 3 March, 2007—May, 2007
Archive 4 May, 2007—October, 2007
Archive 5 October, 2007—June, 2008
Archive 6 June, 2008—June, 2008

Contents 1 Information 2 Requests for BAG membership 2.1 Electing 2.2 BAG request: Bjweeks (BJ) 3 Discussion 3.1 Heads up 3.2 New icon 3.3 BAG Mailing List 3.3.1 Purpose? 3.4 FritzpollBot 3.5 Possible unauthorized Bot 3.6 BAG membership discussion (redux)

[edit] Information

This is the talk page for the Bot Approvals Group. Specific bot requests should be placed on the Requests for approval page. See the Bot policy page for more information on bot policy. This page is specifically for issues related to the approvals group. At the moment there is no formal policy for adding and removing members of the approvals group, but one will likely be formulated in the future. This is, however, the correct page to discuss member changes.

[edit] Requests for BAG membership

Requests to join the Bot Approvals Group are currently made here, although other methods have been proposed. Users wishing to join BAG, or to nominate another user to become a member, should start a section here, where informal discussion and comments on the candidate's suitability may be made. After a suitable length of time (usually one week unless the nomination has not received a reasonable level of support), the discussion will be closed by a bureaucrat.

[edit] Electing

I'm electing to work with the BAG here, I'd like to add myself to the table. Need consensus to do so. I don't think there needs to be a whole process, just some discussion/consensus. Thanks for the consideration. Regards, NonvocalScream (talk) 12:33, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

• what if any experiance have you had with bots or the bot process? β^{_{command 2}} 14:07, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

• In the past I have run a successful bot with the flag, a couple of tasks. I will send the name of the bot to selected users in good standing. Actually scratch that. Why don't we wait untill I can demonstrate this. On hold unless you all are already ok with my working with bag. Regards, NonvocalScream (talk) 16:08, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Please do provide me with the bots that you have operated. otherwise I cannot and will not support your request. β^{_{command 2}} 16:34, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

I mean, I'll wait a couple of months and demonstrate this. So my request is on hold. NonvocalScream (talk) 16:49, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] BAG request: Bjweeks (BJ)

I've been thinking about requesting to join for a while, so here it is. I've been editing actively since 2006 and I run BJBot, which is made up of 3 different bots that do image work. I've also coded a few others that are no longer in service. I'm fluent in Python and (X)HTML, I can also write SQL, CSS and regular expressions at a moderate level. I'd like to join to help review bots from a technical angle and do janitorial work to help keep the BRFA system running smoothly.

I've been told this is the most "accepted" current way to file a request to join but I'm willing to go through any process. Thanks, BJ^Talk 10:52, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Strong support - knowledgeable, responsible bot operator in good standing. -- Cobi^(t|c|b) 10:53, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

• I support BJ's candidacy. Knowledgeable and a good community guy. giggy _(:O) 10:55, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

On the one hand, I don't really see you commenting on a lot of BRFA's (however, I've been absent for a month or 2), on the other hand, you are a responsible bot owner, and, try your best to operate within whatever this weeks version of WP:BOTS is, and you are very good with code, and helping others with theirs. I think I'll Support this nom. SQL^{Query me!} 12:24, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

• Support Seems like he understands the system. MBisanz ^talk 07:00, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
• Note I just posted a notice of this request to WT:BOTS, WP:BOWN, WP:AN and I put a notice on my userpage. This is a day late but I just wanted to confirm if and where I should post the notice. BJ^Talk 07:05, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Added to WT:RFA for good measure per below. BJ^Talk 07:40, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
• Tawker.Support(Bjweeks) understands the system -- Tawker (talk) 00:09, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
• Support - I've seen him around quite a bit, the more the merrier. Mr.Z-man 03:23, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
• support-Me personally like BJbot beacause my enitials are BJ but not just the username which is cool but the way he handles things with other users etc. Thanks B jacob (talk) 07:11, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
• Support - knowledgeable and helpful editor. I thought he was already a member. Kelly ^hi! 14:13, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
• SUpport, per above. — E ↗^TCB 21:36, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
• Support Per above. Good user ·Add§hore· ^Talk/_Cont 22:25, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
• Support CWii_{(Talk|Contribs)} 00:45, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
• Support, but only if you promise to use any newfound cabal influence to get me my toolserver account. Otherwise, strongly oppose :D. Happy‑melon 12:47, 8 June 2008 (UTC) Can you see I'm getting a bit desperate?

I know, I've been waiting since April :P CWii_{(Talk|Contribs)} 18:34, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion

Post a comment to add a new topic of discussion.

[edit] Heads up

Hi there! Since it looks like Betacommand will be prohibited from running automated tasks, I've taken it upon myself to clone all of BetacommandBot's tasks that I find useful. The first one, WP:DABS, is already complete and is so utterly uncontroversial (one edit per day in userspace, runs with a flag, thoroughly tested like all my other bots) that I'm not going to bother wasting everybody's time by seeking approval for it. Also, this latter part was posted on the administrators' noticeboard but I thought you group of technically minded people should know that I'm also launching an adminbot to move-protect today's featured article for 1442 minutes, starting at 23:59 UTC. Like all my other adminbots, this one's designed with great care and I'll email the code to anybody on request; true open-sourcing will come when I get my grubby hands on a Fisheye account. :) east.718 at 00:01, May 21, 2008

heads up its a little more work than it first appears if you want the code for the task e-mail me. β^_command 00:41, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

east718 mentions open-sourcing his code. Beta, would you still allow him to base his code on yours if he intends to do so? I recall that you once gave my intention to write open-source code as a reason why I couldn't see your code. rspeer / ɹəədsɹ 02:53, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

I often write open source tools upon reqest, RFC bot is one example. some tools I release and others that I dont. β^_command 13:26, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

The notice accompanying this message box is made by me, in my role as an administrator. It is not made in my role as a member of the Bot Approvals Group.

I am cool with east718 running admin bots MBisanz ^talk 04:55, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

This message is made by me as Dihydrogen Monoxide. I'm cool with east running an adminbot (I mean, it's not like it's a first...). dihydrogen monoxide (H₂O) 06:40, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

East, you write solid code. I only wish you'd submit to a WP:BRFA first, so we can help you find possible flaws. I also wish your bots were better documented. Outside of that, I couldn't give a crap. SQL^{Query me!} 03:20, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

To Rspeer - I prefer to open-source most of my stuff so I probably wouldn't use BC's code for that reason, but that's an issue solely between me and him; you shouldn't care as long as I open-source it by hook or by crook. To SQL - I've added details about these tasks to the bot's userpage and will bounce you the source when you get on IRC tonight. east.718 at 06:05, May 23, 2008

[edit] New icon

To differentiate between the traditional Bot icon and actions taken by the BAG as an entire group (such as BAGcoms, etc), I've created . And I created a tiered notice system to avoid confusion when communicating messages whose weight and authority could be confused User:MBisanz/MESSAGES. MBisanz ^talk 08:43, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

The 'bot wheel' in that image seems blurry to me.. is there any way you can fine this up? — E ↗^TCB 09:05, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Suggest you use something other than ambox for those notices, since you're not going to be putting them on articles :D. A screen reader will have a whale of a time working out the real significance of the top notice, given that its ambox class is screaming "delete me!". I like the BAG icon very much, though. Happy‑melon 11:16, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Not sure how often we'd have to use these, but do like the image, have updated my userpage topicon User:Xaosflux/BAG with it. — xaosflux ^Talk 12:03, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Personally I think it is a bit grandiose. Hesperian 12:07, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

IMO a reef ought to be reserved for DR committees, but that's just me. Martinp23 12:29, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

The base images were Image:Crystal Clear action run.png and Image:Wikipedia laurier W.png and I used GIMP to scale and merge them. Basically I cut out the W and scaled the gears from 128*128 to 275*275. Since they're PNGs, I'll take them over to the graphics lab later and have them made into SVGs, that might make them clearer. And I'll look into other message box styles (or ask David to make scales userspace messages), I just like Ambox since it has levels included. Pretty much the only times I can image the laurel'd message being used are in extreme situations, such as notifying someone of BAGcom related matters, notifying a bot op of a community bot (MediationBot1 for instance) or revocation of the right to operate that bot, etc. Maybe once or twice a year tops, since everything else is done in our roles as individuals not as a group. MBisanz ^talk 16:39, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Ok, I had done, now waiting on the laurel image to combine the two. MBisanz ^talk 21:49, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Y Done as . MBisanz ^talk 23:12, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

What's a "BAGCom"? Martinp23 11:53, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

BAGcoms would be the instances where BAG acts as a Group making a decision instead of an individual acting in their capacity as a member of BAG. Prior examples would be actual matters at Wikipedia_talk:Bots/Approvals_group/Archive_3#Betacommand, Wikipedia_talk:Bots/Approvals_group/Archive_5#BAG_as_.27arbcom_for_bots.27 and proposed matters at Wikipedia_talk:Bots/Approvals_group/Archive_5#Opinions_Wanted, Wikipedia_talk:Bots/Requests_for_approval/Archive_4#Review_of_a_Betacommand_task. So it seems a lot of people feel that if there is a controversial issue, bring it to this page for all the members of BAG to discuss it and make a binding decision. This is different than BRFAs where each member of BAG is expected to follow WP:BOT, review the task, review the discussion, and make an individual decision on if the bot should be approved or not. MBisanz ^talk 21:30, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Comment: indicating a group decision is a good idea but I have to echo Hesperian that the icon seems a little grandiose. Are those laurel leaves? Like the emperors used? How 'bout a plain circle to indicate unity? Franamax (talk) 21:39, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Actually, I adopted it based on this and this category where its used pretty regularly among WP icons, but I'm always open to suggestions. If you give me another image, I can combined the two and post it here. MBisanz ^talk 21:51, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

I think Image:Applications-development.svg is the most appropriate image. It carries the connotations which accurately reflect the role of this group. Daniel (talk) 03:21, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

I've tweaked it to as an alternative. MBisanz ^talk 05:18, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

The idea of my suggestion was kind of to avoid the laurel altogether, but thanks :) Daniel (talk) 05:40, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Without a hint of facetiousness, I humbly submit for your consideration. east.718 at 06:05, May 23, 2008

After my 25 years of IT work, I would really like a logo of a grinning guy in a white mario-type uniform and cap, holding a fistful of cables, that lead down to a monitor smashed on the floor. The caption would be "IT Dept. Helping you get through the day." or some such. Just my dream. Losing the laurels is best, the hardhat is OK, I'll still pull for a circle around the bot gears though. Franamax (talk) 06:21, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Find me a free image of a circle (I suck at drawing) and that will happen. MBisanz ^talk 06:23, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Oww, I suck at graphics worse, I did try for a half-hour, but I don't know what format to use, if you can scale it in png or, well, anything. What ever happened to whining long enough that someone else does it? :) I'll try again tomorrow, if someone else can help, please do, meantime I'll just shut-me-big-mouth :) Franamax (talk) 07:32, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Here's a really bad example of what I was thinking about: The circles are ovals in there, but whatever. Franamax (talk) 20:03, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Cool, I see your base images on the description page, so I'll give it a run later tonight. Good concept work though. MBisanz ^talk 20:36, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Ok, so I took Franmax's idea and tried to tweak the base images to make the circles circular, etc. The end result is MBisanz ^talk 08:44, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

I prefer the laurel leaves, in all honesty. But I'd be happy with any of the images proposed. Happy‑melon 10:27, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Does anybody find the idea of a Bot Approvals Group logo just a little bit pretentious? — Werdna talk 08:59, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Well MEDCAb's getting one, the Arbcom Clerks have their own logo independent from the Arbcom logo, so I thought it was a good idea to discuss. MBisanz ^talk 09:02, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Werdna, yes. MBianz, that is in no way a "logo" for ArbCom clerks.[1][2][3] Daniel (talk) 10:37, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Interesting, someone might want to change the "Description A Clerk shall wear a fez." wording on the image. MBisanz ^talk 19:51, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

It should be no surprise that I approve of MBisanz's logo :) (even though MBsianz spelt my name wrong :) I also think it's a good idea to use these logos as a means of distinguishing between BAG members acting as members, as admins, and as the official representative of a BAG group decision. It brings clarity to the actions, and clarity can only be good. Franamax (talk) 20:59, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

I'll expand this a little further: the logos don't necessarily have to be used in MB's templates, they could also be tagged inline with comments, and the image description would have the same text as the templates, i.e. you can click the image to see what it means/popups tells you what it means; thinking about another logo that botops could use to indicate that they are commenting on behalf of their bot - "this message is on behalf of the bot I operate on en:wiki"; and Werdna, yeah I thought the laurel leaves were a little pretentious, but given the enormous impact bots have on the wiki community (diffs on request lol) and their somewhat privileged position here, again, the more clarity, the better. Franamax (talk) 21:18, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] FritzpollBot

While this sounds good, just wondered if we should run this past the devs. This bot could double the number of articles on en.wiki. Rich Farmbrough, 13:10 30 May 2008 (GMT).

Just asked Tim on IRC, so long as its maxlag compliant, there are no WP:PERF issues. This of course should not be taken to mean that the devs approve of the bot or its purpose, just that adding the articles will not break anything. MBisanz ^talk 14:37, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Considering the articles are all notable and meet our inclusion guidelines (which they do) and this isn't going to kill the servers (it won't), everything seems cool. That's why I approved it. dihydrogen monoxide (H₂O) 14:42, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes, it meets all our standards for approval, good called :) MBisanz ^talk 14:50, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Possible unauthorized Bot

Came across this user while dealing with some WP:ACC stuff. I don't think I could get my bots to get that many EPM even if I wanted to. Q ^{T C} 18:39, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

User was already warned. Gimmetrow 19:20, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] BAG membership discussion (redux)

This is the section to discuss issues surrounding BAG membership - the history, the selection process, and other concerns. Could someone do a brief history, summarise the concerns, and link to the discussions further up this page (or in the archives)? Thanks. Carcharoth (talk) 08:56, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

From what I gather, the concern with the closed Group membership process pertains to its insular nature, which leads to organizational inertia, favoritism (i.e. tolerance for misconduct by members), and a lack of an established mechanism for community input or oversight. El_C 11:31, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Well, we could always go back to the old way, where anyone could add themselves (and, can be removed if there are issues)... I can't say I really understand why we switched back, but, that was just right around when I was getting more active around here... SQL^{Query me!} 11:37, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

It's useful to have a filter. But it's important to make sure this filter doesn't appoint and polices itself —without outside oversight— in perpetuity. El_C 11:46, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Look at the last several... I don't think it's any longer a case of 'self-appointment', so, let's get that out of the way now.... SQL^{Query me!} 11:48, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

The last several appointments? Where do I look? Who was made the decision? El_C 11:51, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

I'll go dig in the archives, but, IIRC, the last 6 or 7, the crats closed (as was suggested) I think, 6 pass one fail (+/- one, I seem to be getting old), I think most of them got a couple times the present level of participation as well. SQL^{Query me!} 11:53, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

• User:Giggy [6] - PASS Closed by b'crat User:Taxman, 28 users participating
• User:Maxim [7] - PASS Closed by b'crat User:Kingturtle, 12 users participating
• User:MBisanz [8] - PASS Closed by b'crat User:Kingturtle, 19 users participating
• User:Krimpet [9] - PASS Closed by b'crat User:Kingturtle, 10 users participating
• User:Mr.Z-man [10] - PASS Closed by b'crat User:Kingturtle, 14 users participating
• User:MZMcBride [11] - FAIL Closed by b'crat User:Kingturtle 17 users participating
• User:Chris G [12] - No consensus Closed by b'crat User:Taxman 12 users participating

Also, the one ongoing, has 12 users participating.

Hope this helps. It's been a long night, but, my reading / counts should be more or less accurate. (and, apparently it was 6, mea cula...) SQL^{Query me!} 12:00, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Oh, okay. That's news to me. That solves the self-appointment problem. El_C 12:18, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Though it rather turns it into an "appointment with highly limited community participation" problem. Alai (talk) 15:48, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

So we should force the community to participate? We've tried spamming noticeboards. It doesn't work. -- Cobi^(t|c|b) 16:06, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

I thought my preferred model was well-known and oft-stated, but I suppose we have lots of venue-drift in this discussion. Transclude RfBAGs from the RFA page, just as is currently done for RFB. Look at making BAG a flag-setting role. Make explicit that "judging consensus for the task" is part of the role. (Or if strictly necessary, split out the latter two from the "technical" role, but that seems over-complicated to me.) If at that point there continues to be highly limited participation, then assume that the community really doesn't care. However, purported counterarguments like "RFA is too political/about popularity/inherently broken" suggests to me a desire in some quarters for "limited" reform, and that slightly more input might be accepted to "too much" more input. Alai (talk) 16:18, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

I am not opposed to that stance, in fact I underwent an RfBAG at RFA. It seems that a few users have said that they do not want that method and have reverted everything. I am also in support of creating a BAG usergroup and assigning rights to grant/revoke the bot flag to that usergroup. -- Cobi^(t|c|b) 16:26, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

You don't explicitly cover the "consensus" issue, but otherwise we seem to be of one mind. You should probably expect to be flamed from various quarters forthwith. :| Alai (talk) 16:31, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

I disagree, The fact is, they get more participation than ever now, by people outside of BAG, and, when there is an issue it comes up, and I think in the one case it did, it caused the nomination to fail. Silly politics, are minimized (although, not eliminated, see the string of 'protest comments' in a couple of those, still far less than say, Coren's one on RFA for instance). Appropriate people seem to be being picked, and, most of the 'closed group' arguments don't hold up to scrutiny anymore. I'm not convinced that there's still a problem. SQL^{Query me!} 20:16, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

If BAG was given flag setting rights (something incredibly easy to do now), I would support the RBAG on RFA proposal. I just felt it was premature before to start RBAG, and then later add the flag setting feature. MBisanz ^talk 16:38, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm not utterly wedded to either option on flagging, but if agreement on flagging is possible, and it facilitates agreement on other matters, then I'm all for that. Alai (talk) 16:53, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

So... It's an evil self-selecting cabal, and you want to give it more privileges? Or, that's about the only way to truly justify throwing the community input process on RFA? Either way, I'd strongly advise against a usergroup, I don't see a problem with the crats doing it now (they're often there faster than the pizza guy!) I'd also support having the 'crats actually look over the BRFA in question, as a last check and/or balance. SQL^{Query me!} 20:16, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

... and equally, if people are going to throw up straw man arguments against flag-setting, then I'm happy to move forward with a RfBAG process without it. The two are entirely separable in my mind, and I'm happy to argue for them together, or each under separate cover. Your "strong" advice seems to lack any actual argument against the idea, however. Alai (talk) 21:39, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

• Here's a proposal. What if those who could approve bots included any admin, and select non-admins. Admins presumably have some degree of community approval and could pretty much add themselves to BAG if they wanted, and be removed if they don't do anything for a month or there are other objections. "Select non-admins" would include anyone else trusted to deal with bots, which would be shown by a vote here. OK now, rip it apart. Gimmetrow 00:57, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
  • The skills required for evaluating bot requests are different from those required for adminship. For example, I expect that many of our thousand-plus admins don't understand why a fully-automated spellcheck bot is a bad idea. --Carnildo (talk) 01:03, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
    • And 99% of them also won't care to get involved with bots. Gimmetrow 01:34, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
      • That's why I think the 'easy come easy go' method that we did for a while works. I'd be fine with limiting it to admins, and, if one is approving inappropriate bots, etc, we should have a simple removal method. SQL^{Query me!} 04:42, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
        • OK, but then what about editors who are interested in doing the job but not currently admins? Should be some way for that to happen Gimmetrow 05:55, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
          • Indeed, something to work out. I still think, the appropriate way to address the concerns brought, is to have an easier to join and remove system, than a more "elite" system, where it is more difficult to join, and be removed. I'm not pretending this to be the perfect system, but, it sounds to me at least, to be an improvement. SQL^{Query me!} 06:03, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
            • I think there's a lot to be said for this sort of approach, in fact. Indeed, I'd have been pushing for it more strongly, except that I thought it'd provoke even more trenchant resistance from the existing BAG members, whom it'll be extremely difficult to implement "reform" over the objections of. But if it's politically doable, it's probably more practical than trying to treat the initial selection process as perfectable. I think RFA "works" -- in the sense that the whole edifice hasn't come crashing down around our ears, however unpleasant a place it might be on occasion -- because it achieves wide enough input to have a certain conservatism, because admins can essentially "cancel each other out" as regards to doing significant harm, and because ArbCom can more or less keep up with the "rogue admin" phenomenon (not in the least promptly or efficiently, but after the levels of wikidrama and toxicity get sufficiently high). The BAG gets less community input, seems to have been less than successful in self-regulation, and the ArbCom seems to be pretty clueless about what to do with it. If there were a "finite term" clause, or some sort of "recall" mechanism, the system would be more robust to the inevitable occasional lapse in initial "promotion". Alai (talk) 13:02, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
        • OK, in attempt to keep the system easy, how about this: anyone can join, but to start with they can only approve trials; if no (two?) BAG members object to the user for a month, then they can approve bots. Gimmetrow 07:11, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
          • I think that just goes back to BAG selecting itself, which many seem to have a problem with. BJ^Talk 07:12, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
          • A great idea, but, bjweeks makes a good point. I can't say I recall a problem with the 'anyone can join' system for the (year?) time it was in place, except for one user, abusing the privilege, whom probably should have been removed, instead of the system reverted. SQL^{Query me!} 07:19, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
            • Anyone can join, and any existing BAG remember can remove someone in trial. If someone still wants to join, then they must get community consensus through RfA. That allows the community to "override" any allegations of self-selection. Gimmetrow 07:23, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
            • That's similar to a WikiProject. Having the list split by active and inactive members might be an idea. The other alternative I would suggest is that a notice is posted at RfA, the one place missing from the notification list of the current request. Carcharoth (talk) 07:27, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
              • Also, one of the less relevant places, I think I recall there being some minor drama about someone notifying there, not sure tho. May have been something else. SQL^{Query me!} 07:29, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
                • Seems I was thinking of something else. SQL^{Query me!} 07:31, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
              • Lets try it! Just added mine to WT:RFA. BJ^Talk 07:40, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
                • Well, seems like a harmless experiment :) SQL^{Query me!} 07:44, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
                  • Brave move, BJ! :-) Carcharoth (talk) 07:45, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
                  • SQL, Why do you say it is less relevant? Bots can affect far more pages than admins can. Actually, what I am arguing for here is more community input at BRFA (as others have said). Once that is managed (and we need to recognise that boring-but-necessary bots will not get comments) then who is and isn't on BAG becomes irrelevant. Basically, most BRFAs will get so little community input that BAG will be able to approve the technical grounds easily, though a caveat should always be added that if objections arise then the bot may need to be re-approved (and a way to request that should be made clear to anyone reviewing the bot's edits). What BAG members need to be able to judge is which bots may be controversial, or need community input. A good example is the Fritzpoll one, which I believe has technical approval, but was passed off to a community discussion. Other examples are adminbots that were sort-of approved, but told they needed to pass an RfA. And so on. Betacommand's original bot request is a good example of one that didn't get a proper discussion at the time, was discussed later at a noticeboard, and was never properly re-evaluated during the time it ran after that. It did good work, but the processes of discussion and improvement and more discussion and improvement never really took place on Wikipedia. Carcharoth (talk) 07:45, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

• • As far as I can tell, the only way that RFA becomes relevant from all the arguments I've read, is that it's a high-traffic page. Why stop there? Why not the sitenotice? What about WT:MP? There are tons of high-traffic pages we could slap it on, with little to no added benefit, just like WP:RFA. Moving on, I don't think I would have approved Fritzpoll myself, and, I think, in that case, the approving user should have deferred to a more experienced user (It seems, that the overall task of approval was unclear to them). That leads me to another thing that needs to change around here, there should be some easier method of 'revoking' a BRFA. (Don't even get me started on adminbots :P ) As to the betacommand thing, I assume you're talking about one of the earlier tasks, before BRFA came into use. It was very early on, and, quite probably fumbled badly (no one gets it right on the first try, eh?). However, as you say, it's doing / did good work. IMO, the project came out on top, on that one, and really... Isn't that why we're here? SQL^{Query me!} 07:56, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
    • Can we agree that the BRFAs need higher levels of community input than the BAG nominations? If the community oppose a bot, they can do so at the BRFA, and BAG should (in theory) acquiesce and say "technically OK, but no consensus for the task"). I absolutely agree that some method of revoking a BRFA is needed. I'll take the Betacommand history discussion to your talk page. :-) Carcharoth (talk) 10:40, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
      • I agree, and, it would make our jobs (evaluating the bots) much easier, if we did get more community participation at BRFA. SQL^{Query me!} 05:24, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Note parallel discussion at WT:BOT. Gimmetrow 05:55, 6 June 2008 (UTC)