Talk:Botswana

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Please don't blank discussion pages or overwrite. Please sign and datestamp comments.

I have recreated the discussion for the history.--AYArktos 20:31, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Tourism - revist

As a Motswana (correct use for singular, plural Batswana) I wish to propose that the tourism section albeit fair is not nearly detailed enough for a country that is famous for it, and that has 17% of it's territory dedidcated to conservation. To have GW Bush's quote and Alexander McCall Smith's book as main tourist attractions/evidence is just not enough. So I will go ahead and draft up some info with so government (of botswana) backed sources.--munafvr 12:28, 27 Sept 2006 (EST)

[edit] Lack of Religion

Odd that there's no mention of religious groups for this page. Some religious holidays are mentioned in the list of public holidays, this could be useful information. Would fit under demographics, or warrant its own section if it is diverse.

  • CIA Factbook lists "Zionist (a blend of Christianity and indigenous ancestral worship) 40%, Roman Catholic 20%, Muslim 10%, Anglican, Bahai, Methodist, Mormon, Jewish and other 30%" [[1]]

I noted 5% were Anamists in 2001.

You may want to check your inforamtion again, i believe the statistics have changed.

[edit] Lack of controversial facts

Can someone with a better wikipedia understanding than me write something about the fact that Botswana is the African country with the healthiest economic growth and also the one country who told the IMF to fuck off when they wanted to "help"...

Comment from 15:31, 9 Mar 2005 User:Leandrod (Too nice)

C'mon, this page is irreal. Nothing can be so perfect. It makes Botswana sound like Paradise on Earth. The only problem mentioned is AIDS, and then it is glossed over like there were not serious problems in a country where up to one third of the male population may be infected already.

If someone does not improve it, it will need to be marked up as controversial -- for lack of controverse!

This is the strangest thing I heard. I was born and raised in Botswana, before coming to the USA for higher studies. Its incredible that people here have a similar view about Botswana. Botswana is not your stereotypical African Country. There has never been a "real" war or civil war there ever, and honestly I dont think there is any REAL negative (especially for an African country) apart from the HIV/AIDS epidemic. Infact i'm surprised that there was less than one line about the amount of effort the govt has put in to combat the epidemic. Botswana, for its size and resources, has done more than any country in the world to combat AIDS, and was the first country to start providing free ARV drugs. I don't want to add up on it, since people are already complaining about the neutrality of this page. AIDS is a widely recognized fact about Africa in general... and I dont really see what more can be written on this page... I do agree that there is a Major income desparity in the country, but Botswana has really only had about 30 years of true development, before which there was almost nothing. Another negative thing I can think about is the Basarwa Relocation Crisis. The basarwa are one of the last group of tribal people in the country who live in the desert. The government was trying to relocate them to urban areas. Anyway, all in all I really think you should visit the country if you get a chance, and you truly want to see what it's all about.
Comment from 06:22, 7 Apr 2005 24.125.13.140 (which blanked out previous discussion)
This page, is a little TOO positive. I know they want to shine a POSITIVE light on Botswana, but there is so much trouble and war and NEGATIVE things in Africa, it was odd that they didn't include some of it. I think AIDS was the only negative aspect toutched upon.
ummm..... Its very biased to assume that just because majority of Africa is Plagued with war, that Botswana is the same. This is simply a misconception... there has never really been any war since the 1800s. There is a rudamentary social security system in place in this country, so there are poor people.... true. but no crying children with starving bellies and flies (like the media so loves to potray about the stereotypical AFRICA). Read more about this country. check the CIA factbook.
I would defenitly think about adding some more contraversl facts, that would make this website more accurate.
All the information above was made from my own mind and no one else's.
Okay, this may not be the kind of controversy you are looking for, but it is controversial anyway. i.e. For those people who preaches market forces dogma. Its a quote from Stiglitz's Globalization and its discontents book ""Botswana would not have fared as well as it did if its original contract with the South African diamond cartel had been maintained. Shortly after independence, the cartel paid Botswana $ 20 million for diamond concession in 1969, which reportedly returned $60 million in profits a year. In other words, the payback period was four months! A brilliant and dedicated lawyer seconded to Botswana government from the World bank argue forcefully for a renegotiation of the contract at a higher price, much to the consternation of the mining interests. De Beers (the South African diamond cartel) tried to tell people that Botswana was being greedy. The used what political muscle they could, through the world bank to stop him. In the end, they managed to extract a letter from World bank making it clear that the lawyer did not speak for the bank. Botswana's response: That is precisely why we are listening to him"


My guess is that the reason that this article is so positive is because in general, people's perception of Africa is one of backward, war torn and corrupt states. A stable well governed democracy with a growing economy in Africa like Botswana is very unusual. That said, the article only touched briefly on the fact that AIDS is so rampant there; I've beefed up that part of the article accordingly. --Bletch 18:31, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I edited the article to inject a little of the 'desired controversy' into it. Namely, that well-trained, professional army is a bit expensive.
Also, I didn't write this in, but it should be noted that there is one dominant party in Botswana's democracy, the Botswana Democratic Party, and has been since independence. The dominant party has not intimidated opposition or rigged elections, but history and the rules (ie winner-take-all electoral districts, which the dominant party can effectively redistrict, and no government-funded campaigning) stack the odds against the others. The Vice-President basically automatically accedes to the Presidency when the President's term limits expire (two four-year terms, I believe. The current preident is to leave office in 2008). There *is* a degree of pluralism (though not quite at Western levels), but it occurs mostly *inside* the dominant party, during primaries and the like.

--stancollins 31 May 2005


Although I am all for adding more controversial facts (see my "Some Thoughts" below), I would like to add that when I was in Botswana, the students in my program were told that the UNAIDS study cited by the external link (the one that states Botswana's HIV-infection rate at around 37%) had a flawed sample - they tested only pregnant women. Does anyone know if this is true? Regardless, the HIV/Aids crisis is a major problem for the country, whether the rate is closer to 17% or 37%. Friedrichhajji 08:08, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Holidays in Botswana

Are Good Friday, Easter and Ascension Day in Botswana always on the same days every year ? That's quite unique, 'coz they are moveable holidays elsewhere. If this is for real, I am curious why. -- PFHLai 09:35, 2005 Mar 29 (UTC)


Having recently returned from Botswana, I can tell you that some people were surprised by the Ascension Day holiday because they were unaware which day it was being celebrated. For better or worse, it ended up being the first Thursday in May -- three days after May Day, which is also an official holiday. -- Gosiame 30 June 2005 07:19 (UTC)

[edit] Steve Lewis

Botswana offered Steve Lewis the highest medal in that country for his guidance in economic development. How can we slip that sentence in the front page?

First, who is Steve Lewis? I presume that it isn't this Steve Lewis? --Bletch 13:51, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Apparently Steve Lewis is a development economist who is a faculty member of Williams College. It might actually be worth mentioning, under the economics section, as an example of bringing in foreign consultants (though the name might not be worth mentioning, really).
http://www.williams.edu/cde/nationbuilding.htm
stancollins 31 May 2005

[edit] Some thoughts

For a wider, less-Panglossian perspective on Botswana, someone should consider writing about the deportation of UB political science professor Kenneth Good. No stranger to controversies stemming from his advocating liberal democracy in southern Africa, Good had previously been deported from Rhodesia by the Ian Smith régime in the early 1970s. His refusal to adhere to the cliché-to-the-point-of-obsessive "Botswana as 'Jewel of Africa'" paradigm ran him afoul of the BDP government -- apparently his talk concerning Botswana's system of presidential succession not being "a model for Africa" was the final straw. This case highlighted the fact that in Botswana, the country's power is constitutionally vested, not in the people or the parliament, but in the presidency (a position elected on by the parliament, not the people). Thus, the decisions of the president, currently Festus Mogae are untouchable.

This is a continuation of the traditional hierarchy of power in Botswana politics. True, the dikgotla have been around for centuries. But the dikgotla were fora for men only -- plus, the hereditary dikgosi could ignore the advice of the men at the dikgotla at their whim.

All the talk of Botswana's being a "middle-income country" misses the greater point: Botswana is a very economically-polarized country-- not to the point of, say, Brazil, but the rich are immensely rich while the poor are desperately poor. Even today, decades after the Orapa mine began production, over 40% of Batswana remain under the poverty datum line ($1 US per day). From an outsider's perspective, there seems to be very little focus on job creation and serious economic diversification despite the fact the country's unemployment rate is well above 20% (in some areas, especially in the western districts--e.g. Kgalagadi and Gantsi, the unemployment level is much, much higher).


AIDS is diverting resources away from other pressing needs (for instance, apparently there are only 5 gynæcologists in the entire country!).

Most tourist facilities in the Okavango Delta and Chobe River regions catering to the high-cost, low-volume philosophy espoused by the government are owned by foreigners, meaning much of the money is not reinvested in the Botswana economy. Some owners are well-known to treat their workers (especially those who are native Batswana) less-than-ideally, shall we say.

These are just some of my thoughts after spending a semester in Botswana. No doubt, Botswana is much better off than many of its neighbors and most countries in Africa. However, it is no paradise ...

(By the way, I had an amazing semester in Botswana, so don't think I'm 100% anti-BW -- I am just echoing those arguing for balance.)

I apologize for not attributing this paragraph when I wrote it months ago...

Friedrichhajji 08:04, 6 January 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Botswanan

I am systematically removing all instances of this word from Wikipiedia as I regard it as a mistake. If anyone feels that this is wrong, please say so. Thanks. Guinnog 14:02, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

A year on and I looked again. We had Botswanan pula, and several other instances of this non-word. I know it is included in some online and even paper resources, but it is not current among English-speakers in Botswana itself, who always use "Botswana" instead. I would need to see a Botswana resource which uses the -an form before I would consider changing my mind. --Guinnog 21:27, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
And now somebody has changed them all back again. I don't know, maybe I should go through and change every instance of "American" to "USAian" because some people think that is better.... --Guinnog 16:03, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] My Perspective

Having been born in Zimbabwe, then spending so much of my life in Botswana that I became a citizen, this article means a lot to me. I've only skimmed through it, but most of it is quite well written. However, the article isn't quite up to date as yet, as at the very least it fails to mention the deliberate reduction of the local currency in order to augment and facilitate trade relations with other countries, both within the region and abroad. Dessydes

  • Hi. I worked in Botswana in the 80s and have been improving and tweaking some of the B-related articles recently. The devaluation was on the Botswana Pula page, and I have copied it onto the Economy of Botswana page as well. Please let me know if there is anything else missing; or else jsut add it yourself! Guinnog 18:13, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
Don't know about reduction to facilitate trade, but in 1996 I lost about a third of my savings when the South African Rand was devalued and took the Pula, which was pegged to it, down with it. JackyR | Talk 19:51, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Washington Concensus

Botswana is often help up as an example of the Washington Concensus in action, and this page would seem to confirm that. I'll wait a few days for a response and, if there isn't one, I'll write a section on what Botswana means for international oeconomic thought. Sanf11:24 (GMT) 24 May 2006

To Dessydes

The actual text part of the article is only 4 screens, and you SKIMMED it then posted a comment?  Gimme a break.
Shouldn't this be the other way round? If Botswana is used as illustration by the Washington Consensus, then the material whould be at Washington Consensus. If, however, you can show that the WC was important to Botswana, ie refs that say, "Hey, we're following the WC", then it should be at Botswana. JackyR | Talk 01:01, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Semi-protection?

Is there any posibility to semi protect this page?

There have been 3 attacks on this page in the same number of days.

--Camahuetos 17:08, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The No. 1 Ladies' Detective Agency question

How is this series of books perceived by the people of Botswana? Do they like it? Does it paint a very accurate picture of Botswanan life? It would be useful if this question was addressed somewhere in the articles on Botswana and/or the book series. It's written by an outsider; sometimes such books by outsiders are considered patronizing by the group that's portrayed, in other cases, they are well-received (Tony Hillerman, for instance, has won special recognition from the Navajo people for his Navajo detlective books ). --A. B. 13:19, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

I just returned from a holiday in Botswana. The movie version of No. 1 Ladies Detective Agency, which is in production, was something that many people we met wanted to talk about. I heard nothing but positive comments from the people I encountered. One guy, a long term Botswana resident, but a South Africa citizen, said that Alexander McCall Smith seemed to know Botswana better than anyone else. As I understand it, Smith was born in Zimbabwe (Rhodesia at the time), and worked at the University of Botswana. Somewhat related to this: people we talked to in Botswana were proud of their country, much like Smith's character Precious Ramotswe. Of course nearly everyone we met was connected with the tourism industry, so this is perhaps a stilted view. (198.145.74.130 18:37, 20 August 2007 (UTC))

[edit] Naming convention question: Botswanans/Batswana?

A second, unrelated question arose as I composed my earlier entry above: are the people of Botswana called Botswanans or Batswana? I've seen criticism elsewhere of the term Botswanans yet it's my impression that not everyone in Botswana belongs to the Batswana/Tswana/Motswana people (I'm confused about the naming convention for this people as well). If this is a common source of confusion for other outsiders besides myself, it might be worth addressing somewhere here or in another Botswana-related article. --A. B. 13:22, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Batswana (sing. Motswana) is used in both senses, ie as for ethnic Tswana and for citizens of Botswana. It's not uncommon to hear references like "white Motswana" or "He's a Motswana now, he got his passport last week". There is something about this at Tswana, but I've been thinking for a while we should have a dab at Motswana or Batswana to explain. Good idea? JackyR | Talk 00:57, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for the explanation. I suggest touching on it at both those articles plus this one (that's because many folks ignorant of Botswana may start with this article, not the Motswana or Batswana articles). One other question -- do the other ethnic groups within Botswana ever chafe at this convention? --A. B. 02:00, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
Heh, I'd guess wherever there are ambiguous ethnic/linguistic/religious/national terms, people of all spectra find something to get upset about (I've just reverted J. M. W. Turner where someone had changed a negative comment about "British government" to read "English government" – a creature which didn't exist in Turner's time and doesn't now).
But there's certainly chafing at the status of English and Setswana: I remember a note being put up in the staffroom of my school about the importance of valuing Setswana (I can't remember if it was dissing English or what): the next day someone had added several paragraphs saying, "That's all very well, but please to remember Bots is a country of many more languages, all of which should be valued even if we use Eng & Setswana as lingua franca." JackyR | Talk 13:30, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
See my section above and also Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Africa#Botswanan. I propose a short entry on this article clarifying usage. --Guinnog 21:26, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
OK, have finally created dab at Motswana and redirected Batswana there. JackyR | Talk 00:49, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] I got a Botswana Fitted Cap

I heard that they are selling ice cream cones in Botswana for $3.95 a pop. All day baby.

[edit] Cannabalism

"The people of Botswana have recently resorted to Cannabilism as they are running out of food. Everybody is now attacking each other over who eats who and how much each other can have. This idea had been proposed before but was ousted."

I don't think this is right. Can anyone confirm?

Nibix 20:17, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Definately not! someones attempt at a stupid joke

Sealpiano 20:38, 16 May 2007 (UTC) says: Right. Botswana has a GDP per capita of $11,200, which puts it higher than Turkey, Romania, and China. This was highly flawed and inapropriate.

[edit] Proposed WikiProject

In my ongoing efforts to try to include every country on the planet included in the scope of a WikiProject, I have proposed a new project on Southern Africa at Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Proposals#Southern Africa whose scope would include Botswana. Any interested parties are more than welcome to add their names there, so we can see if there is enough interest to start such a project. Thank you for your attention. Badbilltucker 16:39, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Economy

"Economic growth averaged over 9% per year from 1966 to 1999". Where does the 9% come from. When I calculate the growth rate for PPP adjusted GDP per capita for Bostwana using data from this site: http://pwt.econ.upenn.edu/php_site/pwt61_form.php, I get about 6.4%, which is still very impressive and among the highest in the world (China in the 90's probably higher). But when you're talking growth rates a one percent error makes a huge difference. If no cite is provided I will change it. Perhaps "economic growth" is defined in some other way here? radek 20:03, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] See meta:Proposals for closing projects/Closure of Herero Wikipedia

If anyone here has any Herero language proficiency, please take a look at this proposal and at the small Herero encyclopedia itself to see what should be done with this wikipedia (keep it or delete it.) Keeping it implies more than a sentimental commitment ("it would be nice to have a wikipedia in every language ...") but also that it can be something more than a 10 or 20-article spam and vandalism trap -- and not just "someday" but in the here and now. (Otherwise, it may be best to delete it for now and wait until there's more interest in the future.)

I understand Herero is primarily a Namibian language but that it does have some speakers in Botswana and Angola.

Please do not respond here but Urather at that discussion (meta:Proposals for closing projects/Closure of Herero Wikipedia).

Thanks, --A. B. (talk) 12:18, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Botswanan

I was trying to find a way of editing the table on the right but couldn't find a way to do it. The use of words such as Botswanese or Botswanan is offensive and inaccurate. Can someone please edit the right table and write 'Motswana' instead of 'Botswanan' for Demonym . Also, our national language is Setswana not Tswana . Maybe someone could make these corrections!—Preceding unsigned comment added by Dimonacle (talk • contribs)

Thanks, I've done the first. --John 18:07, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Life Expectancy

The article claims that the life expectancy in Botswana in 2005 was 34 years. Wikipedia's List of countries by life expectancy article seems to contradict this, giving 50.58 and 50.7 for the CIA World Factbook and UN figures, respectively. It seems highly unlikely that the unsourced 2005 figure given in the article can be accurate. If no one can source this, I'll replace it with current information soon. 59.143.242.73 (talk) 10:39, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Take a look at this link: [2] This shows that both the 34 and 50 figures are "correct" in that they are in fact the actual estimates from the relevant time periods. (Almost certainly they aren't both truly correct. I suspect the previous AIDS estimate was much too large and got corrected in 2007. But it's still pretty shocking that the life expectancy without AIDS would be 72. [3]) Benwing (talk) 03:58, 17 April 2008 (UTC)