Talk:Boston Latin School

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 Boston Latin School was a good article nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There are suggestions below for improving the article. Once these are addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.

Reviewed version: November 21, 2007
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Contents

[edit] Headmaster/mistress

Current headmaster prefers title of headmaster for her job, not headmistress. --MOSforever 06:11, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

Could you supply a source for that? The fact remains, after all, that she's not a master, and thus can't be a headmaster. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 13:06, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
Well, apparently, she prefers the term "Head Master". http://www.bls.org/cfml/l3tmpl_head_master.cfm I withdraw the point; return it to Headmistress if you prefer. --MOSforever 14:30, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

No, if that's the official term (no matter how peculiar), it should stay. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 15:21, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

Well, if you ever get to know her, you'll find it's not that peculiar. :-) --Muchosucko 04:24, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
That's the truth. Old Corny once clamped her bony fingers on my arm when I walked away from her repeated dim-wiited questions. I calmly informed to take it off or I'd break it off. She went to get Habestroh (sp? I know some of guys must remember him) to take over the interrogation and, rather stupidly, left me alone at which point I simply walked out the door. I know this comment seems trollish, but it is, in truth, the retelling of an actual event. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.184.237.133 (talk) 19:43, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

"Headmaster" is the term Boston Latin School has used since 1635, and she has no intention of changing it. It doesn't matter if she is not a "master," she is still called the headmaster (which I suppose you could translate as "head of the masters," which she is.) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.163.243.54 (talk • contribs) 2006-07-15T11:23:02 (UTC)

We've always called her Headmaster Kelly, and it just sounds kind of weird hearing her referred to as Headmistress Kelly. PhoenixSeraph 22:59, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
Why would we need a source to say that our headmaster prefers to be called Headmaster. (Edited for profanity and rudeness)(This comment added by 24.218.59.4 · 2007-08-29T12:28:38)
Um, because this is an encyclopedia? In principle, everything non-obvious should be sourced, see WP:ATTR. By the way, re this edit, you linked to Oliver Anderson. He is not, in fact, a "notable independent filmmaker", he's a dead English satirist. If you meant this Oliver Anderson, he's not yet notable enough to make this list. Maybe after he graduates. —johndburger 03:33, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Bush visited...

I'm not sure how noticeable this is, but Pres. Bush visited in 2000 to talk about/announce No Child Left behind.


When Bush visited he addressed the current Headmaster as "Headmistress" and she was visibly put out by it. Her official title is Headmaster.

The difficulty with BLS is that homogeneous student bodies turn half the inmates into chronic underachievers. Where students share a single attribute--in this case, academic ability--the environmental press reinforces those who are sensitive to it negatively. One study, by a high school principal, says that a public high school student experiences 6,000 instances of negative self-esteem in a four-year high school career; BLS has more, and for some, over six years. This produces anxiety that impairs achievement, a characteristic that persists in any environment where only excellence will do. It turns out, says research, that all students learn more, including the gifted, when all levels of student ability learn together. Democracy turns out to be good learning theory. BLS was never based on research, but on a Seventeenth Century notion that the mind is an empty room waiting to be furnished. For example, there's no evidence that language study trains the mind any more successfully than Music or computer programming. The best thing that BLS could do for students is apply educational research to teaching. As things stand, BLS claims all who survive it. Learning should be a joy. Haec studia nolunt mentem. [James Sutton]

"It turns out, says research, that all students learn more, including the gifted, when all levels of student ability learn together. Democracy turns out to be good learning theory."

Not only is the first sentence in that statement blatantly false (to speak nothing of the absurd second sentence), I suspect one would be hard-pressed to provide reputable research which could provide a reasonable metric on how much "learning" takes place under various conditions. It is quite clear, however, that when gifted students are in an environment which must cater to a common denominator, they generally are not provided an opportunity to reach their full potential. As no context is provided, it is possible that the statement refers to an entire institution, and not to individual classes (such as advanced or accelerated classes in english or mathematics); however, a claim that the same principle applies to the stratification of institutions would not be spurious.

[edit] Franklin Medals

In 1791, Benjamin Franklin established a legacy to fund the Franklin Medals.

Franklin died in 1790. Was this a testamentary bequest, or is the date of the endowment stated here wrong, or did he rise up from the grave to establish it? -EDM 21:29, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

OK, it was apparently testamentary. [1] I'll fix. -EDM 21:40, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] "First School", etc

I think the NPOV approach to the question of whether BLS or Roxbury Latin gets the title is simply to acknowledge that there is some disagreement.

Also, there are a bit too many details here about Roxbury Latin. The fact that it moved to West Roxbury at some point hardly belongs in the BLS entry.

This is the oldest school in the united states. All sources say so. Where is the problem? The Collegiate date is in dispute, the BLS date is not. All sources say so. I don't understand the problem here. Do not revert again, instead discuss here.--Hashbrowns 02:08, 2 May 2006 (UTC) [ This comment was removed, I put it back. —johndburger 14:39, 27 October 2006 (UTC) ]

Actually, I haven't edited that section at all. The comments above were a suggestion for how to deal with the BLS vs Roxbury Latin issue. (Sorry they weren't explicitly signed.) johndburger 02:22, 2 May 2006 (UTC)


Exactly. We should acknowledge the unclarity. It is definitely not a certainty that Boston Latin is the oldest school.


Agreed. For example, The Collegiate School claims to be older.

Boston Latin School is the oldest "Public School" in the United States.

[edit] "Oldest School" Claim

This is the oldest school in the united states. All sources say so. Where is the problem? The Collegiate date is in dispute, the BLS date is not. All sources say so. I don't understand the problem here. Do not revert again, instead discuss here.--Hashbrowns 02:08, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
We should acknowledge the ambiguity. It is definitely not a certainty that Boston Latin is the oldest school.
NYC5, stop using Wikipedia for "boosterism" as you call it. Collegiate date is ambiguous BLS is not. There is not contention. If Collegiate wants to argue, they can do it on their own page. There is no ambiguity about the BLS date. No one challenges it. No one disputes it. But there is ambiguity about the Collegiate date. This discussion should stay on Collegiate's page. When Collegiate establishes, without doubt it's founding date, you can come and change the wording on the BLS page, until then, the facts, and multiple sources, support that BLS is the oldest school. Collegiate has a few murky sources and a disputed founding date. --Hashbrowns 02:40, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

This is not any one school's page -- this is an encyclopedia. I do not think that either Collegiate or Boston Latin has a clear-cut claim; thus, we should make sure both pages reflect the ambiguity.

False, Boston Latin has a clear-cut claim to be the oldest school for more than 300 years. IN 1985, the Collegiate school digged up an obscure reference to some class held by a Dutch minister and claimed some conneciton with teh school that stands today. Until the reference is verified and the link is made, the claim has not changed for Latin. Collegiate officials are not eager to look fruther into the issue because the ambiguity allows them to make claims like this and heighten their profile by comparing themselves with Boston Latin. In fact, until Collegiate has less murky information, the only clear-cut facts availible and researched make Boston Latin the oldest, and wikipedia will reflect that until more evidence supports Colleigate's claims. Do not revert BLS until you can rectify the ambiguity of Colligiate's founding or make that school's history less opaque. You can start by actually reading the actual history availible instead of making guesses. Your statements, unsupported by actual fact, suggest that you do not have aaccess to the data. The New York Times article is a good place to start. If you don't have access to the text, I can provide you with it. Further claims can be made on Colligiate's page, there is no reason for you to do it here. --Hashbrowns 22:22, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Alumni

"Alumni" means they graduated, so I reverted the dropouts added to the alumni section—that's why they're mentioned separately. —johndburger 17:30, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Actually, the alumni association's definition allows that any who attended for more than 2 years are "alumni," if not graduates. That's been consistent throughout our history. Ben Franklin and Arthur Fiedler are just two of the many who didn't actually graduate. A full 4 or 6-year course of study wasn't always practical--just ask the many living alumni who left early to serve our country during wars or to support their family. Even today, if a former student wishes to remain part of the community, we're happy to oblige. (This comment added by Lpfblsa · 2006-08-02T12:57:17)

It makes sense that BLS has a liberal definition of alumni, but, based on other Wikipedia school articles, here it seems to mean graduate. —johndburger 03:13, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Merging - incorrect

The article headline says that it has been suggested that Boston Latin Academy (Dorchester) be merged into this article.

They are two completely separate schools. Merging them would make no sense at all. Whoever suggested that was probably not familiar with the Boston exam school system.

My error. Suggestion removed. GRBerry 11:39, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mandatory years of Latin study

I graduated from Boston Latin in 1997. At the time, 5 years of Latin were required from those entering in seventh grade, and four years from those who entered in the ninth. Therefore, I had the option not to take Latin my senior year, as I entered in the seventh, but all of my friends who joined as freshman had no choice.

[edit] When did it go coed?

Since Latin was founded in the 17th century I assume it was all-male. When were girls first admited? (Alphaboi867 19:51, 9 November 2006 (UTC))

Girls were first aditted to Boston Latin School in September 1971, the first of whom graduated in June 1977. Purplemouse 20:46, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Headmaster resigning, should it be added

A few weeks ago it was announced over the school PA system that the current headmaster is resigning, should this be added?

[edit] Employees editing this article?

There's a lot of sections that should be in prose written in point form. Perhaps an editor can restructure it to a more appropriate format? (The title's a piss-take, as an aside, due to lecturers and tutors of various 'humanities' style subjects being obsessed with point form.  :P) Jachin 12:01, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Seal published before 1923?

If it[2] was published in the US before 1923 it's in the public domain. SteveSims 01:05, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Sigillum scholae latinae bostoniensis.PNG

Image:Sigillum scholae latinae bostoniensis.PNG is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 11:33, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Brooklyn Latin School

This reference keeps getting deleted or moved around. I think it is notable, since the Brooklyn school is explicitly modeled after BLS, copying many of its traditions. I thought the History section was the best place for this, but perhaps not. It's currently in the Miscellaneous section, but this sectionshould in fact go away—see WP:TRIVIA—or perhaps be renamed something like "Popular references". What do people think? —johndburger 02:43, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Because Brooklyn Latin was modeled after the style of education at BLS, perhaps the Academics section is best. --Pgp688 00:00, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Assess

Well done. Only problem I can see is that your reference for oldest school is not convincing. Obviosly we need a 3rd party source ... and a believable one. This article can go to GA and become a top article too. Any takers? Victuallers 16:03, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Let's do this! Pgp688 (talk) 05:49, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Failed "good article" nomination

The Good Article criteria specifically requires that an article,

at minimum, provides in-line citations from reliable sources for direct quotations, statistics, published opinion, counter-intuitive or controversial statements that are challenged or likely to be challenged, and contentious material relating to living persons

This article contains many large sections without a single in-line citation, including claims that could (without prior knowledge or proper attribution) be called grandiose. As hold periods are only provided for articles that already meet the major criteria but need minor work, I must fail the article without one. Please provide in-line citations per the quoted criteria before renominating the article. There are other areas in the article (such as the inadequate length of the lead section) to reevaluate in comparison to the GA criteria. If you feel this decision was in error, you may seek a reassessment. Thank you for your work so far, VanTucky Talk 23:38, 21 November 2007 (UTC)