Talk:Bosses in The Legend of Zelda series/Archive 1

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Reorder

We should probably reorder the page so that bosses from the same game are grouped together, and also make this the page that the main information for bosses is held on.

I put this on the TP page:

See Argorok

This should work as a pattern, and we would also have to remove the links from this page to the sections on the boss in the other pages (ie, Argorok's entry on this page should not point to Argorok's entry on the TP list)

KrytenKoro 22:51, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

"A common nicknames is..."

Is it really that its a common nickname, or is it that its the English name? I remember seeing these "nicknames" in the official nintendo guides.KrytenKoro 07:16, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

I assume you are talking about Mazura (aka Horsehead) and Jermafenser (aka Helmethead). Both names have been used by official sources. In 1987, "The Official Nintendo Player's Guide" listed the characters under the names of Mazura and Jermafenser. The more recent Nintedo Power Player's Guide for "The Legend of Zelda: Collector's Edition" list the names as Horsehead and Helmethead. Its almost the same sort of the situation with Rebonack and Barba. Older guides from Zelda II's original NES release list them under those names, yet in newer guides made for the GBA and GCN re-releases (as well as most fan based websites) they list them as Horse Riding Ironknuckle and Volvagia.

And to answer one of your other questions, I would classify Patra as a mini-boss. It never guarded a piece of Triforce like say Aquamentus or Gleeok did, but it does make the same breathing sound as bosses and like most bosses/mini-bosses it stayed dead once defeated. Classifying most bosses in the original game is hard though as many re-appear multiple times in later dungeons as semi-regular mini-bosses. Dodongo, Manhandla, Blue Gohma, and Digdodger were notorious for this.

Armogohma

So I noticed that Armogohma has a section both here and at Gohma. Is this really necessary? Gurko 08:21, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Since Gohma isn't the same character in the multiple games, and even at that is vastly different in each incarnation, it really shouldn't have its own page. Armogohma should have a section here, and possibly on TP, but not at Gohma.KrytenKoro 13:04, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

I can see how you can argue both for and against having a page entirely devoted on Gohma. I personally think having a page devoted entirely to Gohma (and related species like Armogohma) is the best approach though rather than trying to make multiple entries on Gohma from a game to game basis simply due to the vast size of information. By having all the Gohma information grouped into one page it makes in much easier to compare and contrast the various versions/species of Gohma from game to game. My suggestion would be to delete the Armogohma information from the bosses page, but leave a redirect under the name Armogohma that takes the reader directly to the Armogohma information on the Gohma page.

That might also be a nice idea to do with all the recurring bosses as well. Add all the recurring bosses to their respective game appearance list, but instead of writing any info. down on the boss you could leave a redirect that takes the reader directly to the boss information already listed under the recurring boss list.

I could see that if Gohma was a similar character in each appearance, like Dark Link, Ganon, or the master of evil, Tingle. But it simply isn't. Besides name, there is no similarity in these monsters.KrytenKoro 18:56, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

That isn't entirely true. In every game Gohma has been a cyclops. With the exception of "Wind Waker," Gohma has always appeared as a cross between a crab and a spider. In the instruction manual for the original NES Zelda it is referred to as a crab (even though in game more people will say it appears more like a spider). In later games like OoT (Queen Gohma) and TP (Armoghoma) the species were given more spider like qualities while other games like OoS gave it more crab like properties.

I believe Gohma deserves its own page not because it is similar in appearance in every game (like say Ganon or Dark Link), but because it is an ever evolving species. Gohma falls under a category of needing its own page for the same reason Octoroks have their own page.

I would again reply that Octoroks do NOT need their own page, as they are not significant even in the media they appear in. As for Gohma "because it is evolving" - that is really specious reasoning. For being a cyclops - not Armogohma, which had the one giant fake eye, but also four regular eyes. Again - while there are similarities between the incarnations, it is the same type of thing as the -mol enemies - moldorm, lanmola, twinmold are all worm like creatures, but are not the same thing. It's like calling a sea-star a starfish - they are neither fish nor stars, but the word describes their appearance (as an arthropod creature with one main eye).

In fact, the Wind Waker thing is PERFECT proof that it should not have its own page.

Also, please sign your comments.KrytenKoro 20:06, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

If anything, the Wind Waker thing is perfect proof for why it should have its own page. So that the differences and similarities of Gohma can be compared and contrasted with one another from game to game much easier. If Gohma is merged into the boss category you would be making the boss section larger than it absolutely has to be. Gohma was split off in the first place due to how much space it was taking up on its own. That won't change, even if you did split the entries up into game by game appearances. It would just end up being merged and moved into its own seperate section again by someone else.

Yeah, no. I can see the recurring Gohma being as small as:

"Gohma appears in blah-blah. It appears most often as a giant, one-eyed, spider-like crab, but in WW, it appears as a giant, one-eyed, lava scorpion, similar in appearance to a magtail(link here to magtail). It is usually defeated by attacking the eye.

Bulleted list of appearance

In blah-blah, it appears like a normal Gohma, residing in the blah-blah. Upon its defeat, Link obtains the blah-blah.

A similar boss named Armogohma (link to earlier Armogohma entry) appears in Twilight Princess)."

That doesn't seem very long to me, and that's about as much as is appropriate - the Gohma page is filled with NEEDLESS DETAIL, nearly as long as the Ganon page. Gohma wasn't split off due to size complaints - it was split off because someone thought that a dissimilar boss-creature was important enough to deserve its own article, which its not.

Its dissimilarity is NOT an argument for it having a page - it is, in fact, an argument against it. We don't put Iron Knuckles and Darknuts into the same article about the two of them - we shouldn't do it with Gohmas.

"So that the differences and similarities of Gohma can be compared and contrasted with one another from game to game much easier." - that is not the purpose of having a seperate article, and for that matter - wouldn't putting it on a bosses page allow better comparison in that you have a wider range of similar "characters" (other Zelda-bosses) to compare it with?

Again, please sign your comments.KrytenKoro 21:02, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Recurring Section thing

We really don't need to have that section, it's just that I didn't know how to organize that stuff - if we figure out a good way to order it, however, go ahead and get rid of that section.KrytenKoro 08:37, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

I went ahead and set it up with first appearances getting the main section - the anonymous user's method of pointing to later setions should work here.KrytenKoro 09:37, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Moldorm and Lanmola in the original Legend of Zelda

I'd classify these guys as mini-bosses (not bosses) in this game, similar to Patra. Once killed Moldorms usually stay dead. http://www.zeldadungeon.net/Zelda01/Enemies/Moldorm.png Lanmolas will eventually reappear over time (similar to most Dondongos not acting as bosses). http://www.zeldadungeon.net/Zelda01/Enemies/LanmolaBlue.png and http://www.zeldadungeon.net/Zelda01/Enemies/LanmolaRed.png I doubt you can use these pictures for the actual article due to wiki's picture guidelines, but at least it should be enough to prove they are in the game. :)172.190.176.29 23:00, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Oh, those things! I never thought of them as a -mol, since they didn't really act like Lanmolas or Moldorms. However, if they do come back (ever), then they're just tough enemies, not mini-bosses. But that's enough to convince me that they have a reason to be on the enemies page (though I still think that since they appear mostly as bosses, they should be on this page, maybe).KrytenKoro 02:55, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, as I mentioned with the Patra thing above, its kind of tricky to classify some these as either enemies, mini-bosses or bosses when it comes to the first game as most kind of criss-cross the three categories.

Like Dodongo for instance. If a Dodongo is guarding a triforce piece it remains dead after killed. Later on when you come across Dodongos and kill them though they respawn. Moldorms and Lanmolas are almost the same. Moldorms will remain dead when killed, so you can say they are definately a mini-boss in the first LoZ. Lanmolas (which are almost like fast versions of Moldorms) though will eventually respawn. On one hand that would make just tough enemies, but then you have to go back and look at Dodongos (which are classified a boss because it guards a triforce piece) and you'll see they can also respawn. I think its just easier to classify them both as mini-bosses. Perhaps potential mini-bosses that respawn like standard enemies could be classified as sub mini-bosses. Just tossing out ideas.172.146.241.7 04:40, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

I really can't see allowing Lanmola's in as mini-bosses unless they act like them (for that matter, I really wouldn't like mini-bosses at all). How about this - if they do that breathing sound thing you mentioned for Patra (all of the bosses do that, yes?), then they count as boss/mini-boss. Deal?KrytenKoro 04:58, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Sounds fair enough. Its been some time since I've played the original LoZ, but I don't recall either Moldorm or Lanmola making the breathing sound. I'd have to check though to be certain.172.146.241.7 05:06, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

I went through and compared the Lanmola and Moldorm (as well as Patra) to the currently listed LoZ bosses we are 100% certain about. All the bosses make two distinct sounds (breathing and gasping). The breathing sound plays continous until the boss is killed. The gasp sound is only made when the boss takes damage. Also, all bosses (except for Dodongo when it isn't guarding a triforce piece) remain dead.

Patra makes the breathing sound. It also makes the gasp sound when its main eye is damaged. Once dead it remains dead.

Moldorm does not make the breathing sound. It does make the gasp sound though when one of its segments are destroyed. Once dead it remains dead.

Lanmola (in either color) does not make the breathing sound. It also does not make the gasp sound when one of its segments are destroyed. Both colors also reappear over time like normal enemies.172.146.241.7 11:33, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Eyegore

Okay, my reasoning that was here earlier was incorrect. The main reason eyegore isn't a sub-boss is that it has neither its own arena nor an entrance cutscene, like the other mini-bosses in the game do (see Gomess [1]. Though it does give an item upon its defeat, it is a mask, and the other masks in the game were not obtained through defeating mini-bosses. Also, it appears as an even more normal enemy in other parts of the dungeon.KrytenKoro 02:40, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Mulldozer and Scissors Beetles

I wasn't trying to be hostile - just giving the second opinion. Also, the Spiny Chuchus were included not just because of warptile, but also because they appeared as a horde and had a short "cutscene" at their entrance, signifying a mini-boss.

Anyway - the list I provided on the talk page is what was recognized as bosses or mini-bosses by the official Nintendo guides (as a Zelda fanboy, I have all of them). There are a few that I took the liberty to add, but none of these were "temple" bosses - only overworld bosses that had the death animation, music theme (that da-da-da, da-da-da thing in the GBC games), personal arena, and often cutscenes that designate a boss or mini-boss. Or the figurine galleries (like in WW, where all the minibosses and bosses are in one room). Also, overworld bosses usually talk to you.

Those are:

Moblin Hideout?: King Moblin, Bow-Wow (arena, music, once per game, dies like a boss (that weeeooouu sound and cloud-puffs))
Kanalet Castle: Knight, Slime Key (arena, music, only fightable once in this arena in game)
Romani Ranch: Romani’s Mask, Gorman Bros. (cut-scene, arena, only fightable once per three days, has character-ness)
Ikana Graveyard: Captain Keeta, Captain's Hat (cut-scene, arena, only fightable once per three days, has character-ness)
Beneath the Grave: Iron Knuckle, Song of Storms (a mini-boss in all other appearances (though a very hard enemy in Master Quest))
Beneath the Well: Big Poe, Mirror Shield (mini-boss in other appearances, arena, only fightable once per three days)
Maku Road: Seed Satchel, Moblins (music, arena, end of dungeon enemy)
Yoll Graveyard: Moosh’s Flute, Poes (music, semi-arena)
Blaino's Dojo: Ricky’s Flute, Blaino (music, arena)
Fairie’s Woods: Blue Bokoblin (music, I think, semi-arena)
Forsaken Fortress: Green Bokoblin (music, I think, semi-arena)
Ordon Village: Mayor Bo, Iron Boots (the sumo thing is not a mini-game, so I thought it might be a mini-boss fight, but probably not)
Death Mountain: Gor Coron (same as Bo)

Also, I threw in Raccoon because it gave a treasure type that is otherwise only available from mini-bosses (I think). Anyway - as a general guideline, any boss or mini-boss should, at the least, make its first appearance as such a thing - mulldozers first appear as random enemies, so it is hard to see them as mini-bosses.KrytenKoro 06:19, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't believe you were being hostile. I was just briefly explaining why I put them down. I don't know if I'm just mis-remembering the events or not but it seemed to me like the Scissor Beetle battle for the Flippers and at least one of the Mulldozer battles (perhaps the Power Braclet one) had the same feeling/music as the Spiny ChuChu fight. Like I said, I could be misremembering it though.

While on the subject of Minish Cap, what is your suggestion on the Darknut thing. Should each type be counted or just Black Knight? And if we count two (or all three) types, should they be separate entries or the same entry (like Ganondorf/Ganon in OoT section)?172.144.54.219 07:21, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

I think the first fight, for the Bow, had the music and the cutscene thing - I definitely remember it having its own arena and being the indtrocution of the enemy. If it is, then have them all under Darknut - they are the same kind of enemy, just different variances/occurances of it.KrytenKoro 07:57, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Arrghus' gender

Just a quick question, when was Arrghus confirmed to be female? Gurko 07:00, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

In fan-fiction?KrytenKoro 07:57, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Heh. Edited Arrghus to "it" like all the other monsters. Gurko 08:13, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Four Swords Adventures

Isn't it kind of sad that the game only introduced four original bosses, and even those were knockoffs of earlier ones? (Frostare - Kholdstare, Stone Arrghus - Arrghus, and Chief Soldier and Big Dark Stalfos were just big Soldiers and Stalfoses)?

I mean, that section just makes me depressed looking at it. And the list already excludes bosses who make more than one showing as a boss!KrytenKoro 06:37, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Could be worse, look at Oracle of Seasons. Unless you count Onox and a few of the mini-bosses that game only had one new dungeon boss.

I also just noticed Gohma was removed from the list. I just wanted to point out that it was included on the list because there is one particular Gohma in that game that locks you in a room and forces you to fight it (similar to how it is fought in the original Legend of Zelda), it wasn't included because of the various other Gohmas that wonder around the fields. I don't know if that makes a difference in your opinion to include it or not, but I thought I should bring it up at least just in case you overlooked that particular Gohma in your decision to remove it

And this one is a bit off topic but since it deals with Gohma I'll go ahead and ask right hear too. Why was Queen Gohma changed to just Gohma?172.190.139.119 08:37, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Well, FSA didn't have minibosses hardly at all. For that Gohma - if it has the music and things (if that's even part of the reasoning), but the NOA guide only recognizes the ones I listed (I checked). However, the NOA guide isn't made by the actual developers, so if its more than just a "fighting challenge", then go ahead and put it in.

As for Queen Gohma - because that's not its name. While most people recongize it as such, it's name is Parasitic Armored Arachnid: Gohma, not Queen Gohma. Search for a picture on the web, you'll see. While the Deku Brothers do call it Queen, that's not its real name.KrytenKoro 17:17, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

This info needs to be integrated

Parasitic Armored Arachnid: Gohma is the first boss of the game, lurking in the Great Deku Tree. She is a curse placed by Ganondorf to kill the tree for not handing over the Kokiri Emerald which he needed to obtain the Triforce. Her weakness is her lone eye, and she has the ability to lay eggs which hatch into Gohma Larva. Gohma is one of the longest recurring bosses. While Link did succeed in killing Queen Gohma, she was the eventual cause of the Great Deku Tree's death.

In the Deku Tree dungeon, there are many Gohma larva which are miniature versions of Gohma and are killed in a similar fashion.

Throughout the series, several other versions of Gohma have appeared.

Infernal Dinosaur King: Dodongo is the largest of the Dodongo species of monsters. He was presumably summoned by Ganondorf in his plan to gain the sacred stone of the Gorons by making the "Dodongo's Cavern" saturated with monsters and preventing the Gorons from accessing their food source within. Link entered the cave and encountered King Dodongo in the depths of a lava pit. King Dondongo's skin is armored and the only way to harm him is by throwing bombs into his mouth. After being defeated, Dodongo rolled into his own lava pit, where he disintegrated.

Bio-Electric Anemone: Barinade was placed in Lord Jabu Jabu's belly in a similar parasitic fashion to The Great Deku Tree, in order to gain the sacred jewel of the Zoras. It absorbed energy from the large fish and occupied its internal organs until Link destroyed it. It used powerful electricity and a symbiotic relationship with Bari.

Also, the boss of the Forbidden Woods, Kalle Demos, from The Wind Waker, appears as Barinade's plant-like form, looking similar in appearance and is destroyed the same way Barinade is. He is also similar to Arrghus from A Link to the Past.

Main article: Phantom Ganon

Evil Spirit from Beyond: Phantom Ganon is a ghostly clone of Ganondorf encountered by Link in the Forest Temple. It rides a demonic steed and mimics attack patterns used by the real Ganondorf whilst using teleportation and energy techniques. He rode his horse through the paintings on the walls of the boss lair. When Link defeated it, Ganondorf banished it into "the gap between dimensions". Once Phantom Ganon is defeated, Saria awakes as the Forest Sage and gives Link the Forest Medallion.

Phantom Ganon also makes an appearance in The Wind Waker as a mini-boss in both the Forsaken Fortress and Ganon's Tower, though with a rather different appearance. That version of Phantom Ganon appeared as a boss in Four Swords Adventures as a boss of both Hyrule Castle and the Temple of Darkness.

Giant Aquatic Amoeba: Morpha is the master of the Water Temple. It consists of a jelly-like form of "unholy water" and a nucleus which could manipulate the water surrounding it to grab and constrict prey. Unlike the other bosses, Morpha does not have a lot of story in the game. However, it appears to have been the cause of Lake Hylia being drained, as the lake refills once Morpha is destroyed.

Once Morpha is destroyed, Princess Ruto awakens as the Water Sage and gives Link the Water Medallion.

A similar boss, named Morpheel, appears in The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess. Morpheel appears to be a giant anemone whose one eye moves through its tentacles. In its second stage, Morpheel erupts out of the ground, revealing itself to be an enormous eel.

Image:Bongo Bongo.jpg

Bongo Bongo

Phantom Shadow Beast: Bongo Bongo Is the master of the shadow temple and is a large ghostly cyclopean creature that has a red eye in its center and two giant hands that appear to be severed from its arms, revealing bone. Its ability to turn its main body invisible makes it a challenging foe. It first appears in a cut-scene, where Link enters a burning Kakariko Village. In this first encounter, the only time it is free from its prison at the bottom of the well, it appears to Link and Sheik as a dark, roaming cloud of static electricity (a thick red substance, possibly blood, in the GameCube Version), and triumphs easily when confronted by Link and Sheik. Link later fights it on top of a giant drum, which Bongo Bongo (hence the name) plays, causing Link to bounce up and down in the air.

Similar bosses have appeared in the series, but they are separate from Bongo Bongo in the games' mythology. Gohdan, the boss of the Tower of the Gods in The Wind Waker, Mazaal, the boss of the Fortress of Winds from The Minish Cap, and Ramrock, the boss of the Ancient Tomb from Oracle of Ages are all evocative of Bongo Bongo.

Odolwa is the boss of Woodfall Temple and the one who is guarding the Deku Princess. He resembles a giant African tribal warrior with an equally huge sword and shield. He uses the giant blade and various summoned insect creatures to battle Link, all the while repeating mysterious chants. Oddly, he appears to have a protruding stomach area. During battle, when he shrieks, it is actually his own name.

Goht is the boss of Snowhead Temple. When the player first encounters Goht, it is frozen in ice, forcing the player to unleash him by the use of fire arrows. Goht is an immense, bull-like mechanical being with incredible strength. It attempts to trample Link with its hooves and uses its stomping to kick up boulders and knock down stalactites. Goht also throws bombs and bouncing bolts of lightning at Link. Link battles it with his Goron transformation mask and/or, though not as easily, using ranged weaponry. At the end of the battle, Goht loses control of itself and crashes into a wall, burying itself in rubble. Its name most likely comes from goat, given Goht's goat-like appearance, although its name translates to "God" in German (Gott).

Gyorg is the boss of Great Bay Temple, and viewed to be the hardest in the game due to its minuscule weak point (its eye) and the amount of damage it can do with a single attack. It is a massive, carnivorous fish creature that battles Link in a large tank area. It attempts to devour the player by ramming the pedestal the player stands on and causing him/her to fall into the water or leaping over the arena, knocking them in. It also releases smaller fish in to the water. Link battles Gyorg using his Zora transformation, as well as his normal form for the Bow as opposed to most of the other battles where a single form is used. When defeated, Gyorg lands on the pedestal and eventually shrinks into nothing. Gyorg returns in The Wind Waker, but instead the smaller fish are a species of shark that hunt Link while he sails across the Great Sea. Gyorg also appears in The Minish Cap as a giant red female manta ray type creature that flies and is escorted by smaller, blue males.

Twinmold are the bosses of Stone Tower Temple. They are an immense pair of centipede-like insectoids that are initially much too large for Link to battle. Link uses the Giant's mask to greatly increase his size, allowing him to fight them head on, though he can ineffectively battle them with arrows and the Great Fairy's Sword. Although thick, impenetrable armor covers most of their bodies, their head and tail are more lightly armored and are susceptible to damage. They are similar in appearance, attack pattern, and even death, (Exploding from tail to head) to Volvagia of Ocarina of Time, the Lanmolas of A Link to the Past, Molgera of The Wind Waker and Morpheel of Twilight Princess.

Mini Bosses

Where is it stated that the Deku Scrubs and Lizalofs are mini bosses? It was stated that the official site lists them as so, but I checked and didn't see that. Can anyone give me some insight?

It's the flash website, and I was wrong about how clear it states it - it devotes entire tip pages to the enemies that I listed as mini-bosses - for example, Big Octo is not called a mini-boss (it actually has less of the entry devoted to it than the DSB and Lizalfos), but it does have its own "tip".

Also, we have established a semi-agreement for determining sub-bosses and overworld bosses - if the enemy:

in its first few appearances, has its own arena (ie, is not fought in a room that is passed through for other reasons),
has some variation of the boss-fight music,(or more generally, a different tune then the one used for fighting the more common enemies in the dungeon),
does not respawn in that room again (MM, FS, and FSA do not count for this, obviously),
has some kind of scene upon its entrance to the arena (something like Gohma crawling down the wall, or the Gomess coalescing from Keese - this may not be applicable, though),
appears only once or twice in the above kind of fight (this is the least helpful - Stalfos appear commonly in games where they serve at least once as a mini-boss, for example), or
otherwise fits the pattern established in that game (in LA, the portal appears, in MM, the dungeon bow part or the Boss Key appears - this is hard to use, as the pattern would have to be apparent)

If something fails the above, or if there is a disagreement, resorting to what the official guide, site, or the majority of faqs claim is usually the solution.KrytenKoro 02:29, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

First, did you delete part of what I previously wrote? Because I had more on here, and the history page shows that.

But, on the subject: During the Deku Tree exploration, various Deku Scrubs are fought and they never return upon defeat. That doesn't make them bosses. (And I'm not referencing the Deku Scrub brothers, but rather the others throughout the dungeon.) Plus, a lot of the times when you fight a character, it may be just ot unlock an item or a passage. That doesn't make each creature a boss. And, I don't know what flash site your referencing, but the official Zelda website doesn't refer to those various creatures as 'sub-bosses', but does call the main boss of a dungeon by it's boss title. So, they're not sub-bosses.Ultimahero

edit conflict, and because my edit explained what you were confused about anyway.

For the guidelines - it doesn't just need to fit one of them, it needs to fit most of them.

For the flash site: it's the link that says "visit official website". KrytenKoro 02:43, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm not confused. I simply have a different opinon than you do. There's no need to attack, seeing as how we're trying to reach an agreement here. As for the Deku Scrub remark, that was just an example of it not fitting. There's more. And finally, if you did indeed delete my comment, please don't do that again. I'd appreciate it. Thanks.

Yes, you were confused, and said so - the "I don't know what flash site" - that is what I was talking about. I'm sorry, I didn't delete it on purpose - I've been dealing with edit conflicts all day, and when I checked the history to see what I had replaced, it seemed obsolete.

And, the officail website doesn't refer to them as sub-bosses, at least from what I've seen. If you know of where it is, then please tell me.Ultimahero

Again, the flash site, and no, it doesn't refer to them as sub-bosses, because that site does not use that term - it does devote whole "pages" to "defeat the lizalfos" and "the deku riddle", as it does for Dark Link and Big Octo, enemies that are fully accepted as sub-bosses in the community and the rest of the series.KrytenKoro 02:56, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Can you please just use the four-tilde thing instead of rechanging the article and causing me multiple edit conflicts?KrytenKoro 02:56, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

In the case of the Lizalfos, while they do not have any cutscene besides the doors locking on you (something that, admittedly, is not often done outside of boss/sub-boss fights), they do have music different from that in the dungeon, have their own arena, do not respawn, and only appear in a similar way for the entire game (one other). They also fit the (weak) pattern of the OoT mini-bosses - guarding the way to the Boss Room (for the Child bosses, this is harder to notice, since there are no boss keys). That's all but one, with a weak part of that one.KrytenKoro 03:02, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Don't the other Dekus reappear if you go back to that room before you beat the last three?KrytenKoro 03:06, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Okay, but other Deku Scrubs have their own arena. (The '2-3-1' guy.) The Deku Scrub trio has no music or cut-scene variation. The other Deku Scrubs disapper upon defeat as well. And the Deku Scrubs and Lizalfos appear throughout the game, unlike Big Octo, for example. And just because they have their own specific tip doesn't make them a sub-boss. (For example, '2-3-1' is given a tip.) Ultimahero

And as for the doors locking on the Lizalfos, well, that happens with the common Deku Scrubs and the tentacls monsters in Jabu-Jabu. So, it's fairly common and not neccessarily an indication of a boss. Ultimahero

Not necessarily, no. The music changing in a Great Fairy's fountain doesn't mean that they are bosses, either. It's the fact that they are together which strongly implies that they are sub-bosses. For Lizalfos appearing throughout the game - where? I know of Dinalfos, but those are different enemies entirely - Lizalfos ONLY appear in those two arenas.KrytenKoro 03:31, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Excuse me, I should have said dungeons, not game. They appear twice, which strongly implies taht they're not a sub-boss. Dark Link and Big Octo share one big quality in that they appear once each. You don't see them ever again, like the dungeon bosses. But, enemies like Lizalofs and Deku Scrubs that appear multiple times are like any other enemy in that dungeon. Besides, there is no music change and locking of doors during the Deku Scrub trio battle. (The door is already locked, which is also a sign of a common enemy. Beating a monster to open a door.) Ultimahero

Iron Knuckle appears what, six times? Even twice in the Spirit Temple - but it's very easy to see that it is the sub-boss(es) of the Spirit Temple. Sub-bosses CAN appear more than once in the game, even in their own dungeon - again, it is the TOTALITY of the requirements that points towards sub-bossdom. KrytenKoro 06:12, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

I would consider the discussion with the Deku Brothers to be counted as a cutscene, and that they ARE different than the other Deku Scrubs (which don't turn blue and don't need to be defeated in a specific order - a puzzle of a fight, much like what sub-bosses usually are), but you are right, they don't have any music change (besides the generic enemy one), or an entrance scene. In the case of the Deku Brothers, I'm willing to agree that they can be removed, though it irks me that all the other dungeons have sub-bosses.KrytenKoro 06:16, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

The Iron Knuckle is the boss of the Spirit Temple when you play with young Link. And, perhaps a sub-boss against adult Link. Other that that, it's just a normal enemy.

It's a sub-boss in both cases, because bosses in this game have the title shown on the screen. But yes, that was my point - sub-bosses and bosses can be difficult "minor" enemies in other parts of the game - that's why the whole list is important.KrytenKoro 06:22, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, there is a disscusion between Link and the trio of Deku Scrubs, but, again, the same argument dcould be made for when Link speaks to the Deku Scrub that tells him the '2-3-1' order. Ultimahero

The entire list is important, but not every enemy is neccesarily a boss or sub-boss. Generally speaking, if it's a boss or sub-boss, then you won't have much doubt about it.

Going back through the videos, the Lizalfos, Big Octo, Dark Link, and Dead Hand all have the distinctive "sub-boss" tune ("do-do-do-DO!") that only they have. I am now verifying the Gerudo Guards (which fit all other criteria), the Stalfos, the Flare Dancer, and the Iron Knuckle, but I should be done soon.KrytenKoro 06:36, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Flare Dancer does. I'm also noticing all of these have a specific type of door-lock - iron bars come down and Link looks behind him, which isn't done in other cases, to my knowledge.KrytenKoro 06:40, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

The same music doesn't make them all sub-bosses. I'll agree with Big Octo, Dark Link and Dead Hand, but not the Lizalfos. They are encountered multiple times, and are different ones. I would speculate that the only reason that the music is played is because they are tougher enemies then you have likely yet encountered. But that doesn't fit them into any specific categoty. If in doubt, leave 'em out. Ultimahero

Again, have own arena, each time.
Have the specific door-locking scene that other mini-bosses in this game have
Only appear one other time, AGAIN with the same setup (even though this doesn't change their status according to the first appearance - Madderpillar in TMC, Wizzrobe in MM, Facade in OoS, etc.)
Have a musical tone SPECIFICALLY GIVEN TO Sub-bosses in this game.
Do not respawn.

How does this not fit the criteria that was agreed upon above? It has every identifier that the others have (granted, Iron Knuckle has more, but that's a game character too, not just a sub-boss). I really don't see how it is so lacking in the list that it doesn't fit?KrytenKoro 06:55, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

The big tentacle monsters in Jabu-Jabu. They each have their own specific arena each time. The doors are sealed behind you and you must defeat them to exit. Only appear once each. Do not respawn. Yet they are not sub-bosses. Just because a creature meets this criteria doesn't make it a sub-boss. Ultimahero

Aiyie- I found that the Blue Bubble has the door-locking thing. So that parts out. About the tentacles - do they have the tune? If they do (since that tune is called "Mini-Boss Battle")(http://www.vgmusic.com/music/console/nintendo/n64/Z64boss1.mid), then it is likely they actually are - like the Forest Temple, and all of Majora's Mask, there can be more than one Sub-Boss. As for arena, I remember them appearing in general corridors, not actual rooms, but I may be thinking of the other tentacle (there were two, if I remember correctly).KrytenKoro 07:06, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

No, they don't have the music. Earlier you said that they must have many of these characteristics to be qualified as sub-bosses. I'm pointing out that the tentacles do, but still aren't sub-bosses. (And most are fought in the halls, but at least one is in a room to get some item. I think a compass.)

Well, the doors don't lock and the music doesn't play - and the music is one of the most useful differentiators, oddly enough, since it denotes when you're not just removing an obstacle. I'm sorry, I guess I was unclear in the list - it's in order of importance - it's okay if something is lacking in the bottom parts, but the top parts are pretty much key - for example, if you fought Facade while you were passing through Koholint Prairie, but could easily leave the screen, and there was no apparent "change in mood" (something the game developers have stressed is an issue to them), it would just be an annoying, difficult enemy.KrytenKoro 07:21, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Oh, and another point. To be a sub-boss, you can't skip them. You have to fight them to progress through the game. But not the Lizalfos. You can actually skip th efirst battle with the. You know in the main room how there is a platform to the right that's too high to jump to? Well, if you destroy the bomb flower in front of it, then you can jump up and hit the switch, effectively skipping a good portion if the dungeon, including a Lizalfo fight. Ultimahero

You do realize that if we took speed-run gameplay into account (and we defined bosses/sub-bosses by whether they are mandatory), Phantom Ganon, Volvagia, and Morpha would have to be removed as well, right? Even then - can you skip the second battle with them?KrytenKoro 07:21, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Since neither the screenshot I showed below, nor the existence of a tune specifically called "Mini-Boss Battle" seem to change your mind, and that we are just going to get into a revert war, I'm going to ask members from the wikiproject to help weigh in.KrytenKoro 07:23, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

No, you have to battle them the second time. But, I'm not talking about cheat codes or anything like that. I mean legitiment playing. You can skip the first battle. Ultimahero

Fair enough. Although, we're I think we lready got into a revert war. Ha! But, it would certainly help to get the opinons of others involved. Ultimahero

The speed run stuff isn't cheat codes - it's "legitimate playing" where they figured out every way to skip things that the developers had forgotten to remove. If you follow the usual method of play, such as the ones given in almost any FAQ or guide, you still fight the first Lizalfos.KrytenKoro 07:59, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

I've seen it done, and I do not believe that it was with any kind of cheating. But, I could easily be mistaken. Wouldn't be the first time. Still, I standd by my point that the Lizalfos don't really merrit as a sub-boss. Ultimahero

I'm not saying it's cheating - the speed run stuff I mentioned is just exploiting shortcuts that the programmers forgot to block (or perhaps purposely left in). And I stand by my point that according to the (arbitrary) guidelines previously agreed to, as well as the fights having what is titled as the "Mini-Boss Battle" tune, points strongly towards them being sub-bosses.KrytenKoro 09:24, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

But, like I pointed out, that could also apply to the tentacles in Jabu-Jabu. Ultimately we don't want to speculate and put something in that we can't say is fact. Anything less than fact is a guess, and that's not what Wikipedia is about.

If it does apply to the tentacles (which I still doubt - every other suggested sub-boss for the game had the "Mini-Boss Battle" (seriously, that's not my name for it) tune, plus the door only locks for one of the battles), then, in fact, they should be included. If you want, we could put a "please do not add sub-bosses without nintendo confirmation or discussion on the talk page" note so that editors will see the guidelines and understand what kind of thing we're looking for (it was done on the Final Fantasy Magic page, until the editors decided that the section itself was not working).

In all frankness, if we removed the arbitrary guidelines we set up, we'd still have the fact that during the fight, an audio file titled "Mini-Boss Battle" plays. Taking all possible OR and interpretation out of it (like the sub-bosses of TMC, something harder to nail down), we still have that.KrytenKoro 09:38, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Look, as we've already acknowledged, we're not going to agree on this tonight. And you put it out there that we needed outside help to solve this, right? So we need to wait for others to offer their opinins. Then we can make a more educated decision, instead of you and I just bickering about it until someone quits. But, like I said before, unless you can factually prove which fights are sub-boss battles, then we shouldn't put it in. It's better to be on the safe side in a case like this. Wikipedia doesn't need anymore original research. Ultimahero

Then, for the courtesy of those judging this debate, I put forward that an enemy in Ocarina of Time is a sub-boss if it is fought while the audio file "Mini-Boss Battle" plays. That is consistent for all sub-bosses recognized in the majority of guides and FAQs, and requires no OR or interpretation on our part.KrytenKoro 09:45, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Fair enough. I would just ask where you got the info on what the battle song is specifically called. Ultimahero

...I posted the link earlier. If that's not working, then go to Zelda Legends or Zelda Universe (the fansites), click on music, midis, and it will take you to the site with the repository of music files. If, perhaps, they titled it incorrectly, that still leaves the question as to why Stalfos, Dead Hand, Iron Knuckle (completely confirmed sub-boss, in the game), Dark Link, Big Octo, Dinofols, Gekko, Gekko, Wart, Wizrobe, Gomess, and Garo Master all have the exact same theme, and nothing else does (unless there was a sub-boss that I missed).KrytenKoro 10:02, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

It isn't working. That explains it. Here: [2]KrytenKoro 10:03, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, your right about the song and the title. But, that is not an offical site. Like I said earlier, we have to be able to factually prove our points with verifiable sources, not just back them up with what we see on fansites. Anyone can put anything on a fan site. As for why it plays during those particular battles, well, perhaps it's just because those are the first time you face these foes. It plays when you first encounter Stalfos in the Froset Temple, but not again during Ganon's Tower. Same with the Iron Knucle. I'm just speculating, of course, but so are you if you put it in without knowing for sure.Ultimahero

My opinion on Lizalfos would be to count them if you also included Ironknuckle, Stalfos, and Dinolfos on the list. Fighting them for the first time in Dodongo's Cavern is not much more different than fighting Stalfos, Dinolfos or Iron Knuckle for the first time in the game (same special background music, being locked in the room and one-on-one battle) and those guys seem to be treated as mini-bosses for their first appearances. Using that logic though perhaps Wolfos (from its first encounter in the Forest Meadow) and White Wolfos (from its first encounter in the Ice Cavern) might even count. And just to be clear, Lizalfos appears at least on four seperate occasions (two time in Dodongo's cavern, the Gerudo's Training Ground and the Spirit Temple). 172.130.40.219 17:05, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

That was my point. If you include the Lizalfos, then there are lots of monsters that you would have to include as well. I mentioned the tentacles in Jabu-Jabu, and like you said, Wolfos, and White Wolfos would be as well. And the fact that they actually do appear more than just in the Dodongo's Cavern would further pove that they aren't sub-bosses, because it further seperates them from accepted sub-bosses such as Dark Link and Big Octo. But, if you are in support of it, then we can do it. But lets wait for others to weigh in as well. Ultimahero

One of the tentacles doesn't even have the door lock, and If I remember correctly, they are treated as part of Barinade's influence.

The Iron Knuckle, which is the most confirmed in the game (actually appearing behind the boss door), appears more than five times in the game, more if you're on Master Quest. White Wolfos has the same criteria as the other mini-bosses (if not more, since it appears at the end of the Ice Cavern).

http://youtube.com/watch?v=O_nbSzJizJ8

There are no Lizalfos in the Gerudo Training Ground - only Dinolfos, as I've said before. From the video, it appears that there might be a Lizalfos in the Spirit Temple (it's either a Dinolfos or a Lizalfos, but the player leaves the room before you can see anything other than a tail). I'm trying to check the other videos - but all of them are just glitch videos, not walkthrough ones.KrytenKoro 20:17, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Is Don Coron a mini-boss? Because you can only fight vs him once and you need to defeat him to go further in the game.

I would be forced to admit that it's more like a one-time minigame, since you're not actually "fighting" him.KrytenKoro 21:41, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Queen Gohma

Her offical title is not Queen Goham, you're right. That was a mistake on my part. It wasn't original fan research, I was thinking about how one of the Deku Scrubs refers to her as 'Queenie' when you beat him. That infers that she probably is a Queen to them, but it's not specifically stated, and so it shouldn't be included.

Oh, I take it back. I checked out the official OOT website, and even they refer to her as Queen Gohma. So, it is official and can be included.

Even the official Zelda series website, 'Zelda Universe', states that Queen Gohma is the boss, and Gohmas are the little pod creatures that she drops during the fight.

Again, the games themselves take precedence - the official (flash) site even displays the image (which I asked you to search for), where the creature is named GOHMA. Not Queen Gohma.

Check the official Zelda website. It has an Encyclopedia that includes all of the series charaters, and the boss of the Deku Tree is listed as 'Queen Goham'.

For the what, fourth?, time, CHECK THE GAME. GOHMA is the official name. Not Queen Gohma. Though the site is helpful, it does NOT take precedence over the game. You can add a note on the Gohma page that other sources call it Queen Gohma, but the official name is Gohma.KrytenKoro 03:24, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Not if the official site gives it a name, and it does. That is not in conflict with the game. The Deku Scrub calls her 'Queenie', an implication that she is their queen, and the site makes the distinction between Queen Gohma and Gohmas. Queen Gohma is the boss. Gohmas are the little ball monsters. The official name is Queen Gohma.

Image:Gohma 1.jpg Image:Gohma 1.jpg Image:Gohma 1.jpg

Okay. Maybe I'mnot properly explaining my point. Princess Zelda's name is Zelda, right? Her name isn't princess. That's her title. So officialy, she is Princess Zelds. Well, Queen Gohma's name is Gohma. But, her official title is that of a queen. (As mentioned by the Deku Scrub and confirmed by the official site.)

So why would the game developers call King Dodongo King Dodongo, but purposely name Gohma, well, Gohma? So the analogy doesn't fit , because they showed it's not an issue of titles with THE VERY NEXT BOSS. Yes, the official site is very helpful in most cases - however, when it contradicts the game itself, you've got to remember that, well, these aren't the people who actually made or translated the game, the game is MUCH MORE CORRECT.KrytenKoro 07:13, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

But it doesn't contradict the game. It supports it. The Deku Scrub calls her 'Queenie'. We know from the game alone that she is their queen. Just because the game didn't insert that title into one specific location doesn't make it void. If I don't call you by your name, that doesn't mean that your name no longer applies. I just didn't use it. She is Queen Gohma. The game says so, and the site supports and proves it.

The game gives her official name as "Parasitic Armored Arachnid Gohma". No Queen Gohma in there. If you want to have a note saying that she is also known as "Queen Gohma", I am all for that. But the official title given is what needs to be there - it is how the entire rest of the article is set up, and there is little reason to buck the pattern just because a talking shrub said so.

As for my name - the analogy doesn't work, because my official name, the one that would be used in titles on wikipedia, if I was at all notable enough, is on my birth certificate, and my birth certificate doesn't give a damn what anyone else calls me. Furthermore, your analogy is the reverse of the actual "situation". The game calls her Parasitic Armored Arachnid Gohma, and the site adds (as is its function) an amalgamation of info from within the game. It would not be appropriate for the title to be "Gohma that is artistically different from earlier depictions in the series", and yet that's what the guides, faqs, and article body have full ability to do.KrytenKoro 07:30, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Okay. There were a lot of big words in that sentence, so I'm just going to nod and pretend that I undestood that.

Maybe it wasn't the best analogy. But, Gohma actually is a parasitc armored arachnid. That's not a title. I doubt they call her that; too hard to say in conversation. That is what she is, like how you and I would be called humans. Her name is Gohma, and her official title is Queen. That is prompted by the game and proven in the official site.

And again - while the official site is useful in body work, in referencing, it is NOT made by the developers of the game (even if they may have talked, even if they know each other well), and thus is a SECONDARY source. The name and title given as official in the game have precedence, and should be taken as such.KrytenKoro 07:32, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree with you. If it were to conflict with something from the game, then it is not sourcable. But, it doesn't contradict anything, it supports it. The first reference was made in the game. The site simply supports it.

I think we may have found a solution to our problem. (Or at least a temporary one.) I noticed that we have Dodongo as a boss, and the only time he is called King Dodongo is in OOT. So, I would think we would create a hearder with just 'Dodongo' in it, and any aditioanl info, such as his role in OOT would be included. And, likewise, Gohma would be much the same. How's that sound?

Except that it is different in different incarnations - there are Dodongo Snakes, Big Dodongo, regular Dodongos, King Dodongo - and it leads too easily into the rampant OR that the previous order had been designed to remove.KrytenKoro 09:22, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

My pointis just that under the Gohma heading, all of the various incarnations will be listed. And, in the OOT one, we can establish the role there, instead of in the heading.

Just remembered - the things that Gohma drops are called "Young Gohma", not "Gohma".KrytenKoro 05:13, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Here's something.

It won't completely solve the Gohma problem you guys are arguing about, but I beleive this article needs serious reformatting. Listing every boss per game like that seems really redundant, since many of the bosses repeat. I belieive it makes far more sense to condense the list by making it alphabetical, that way each boss only has ONE blurb instead of several.DurinsBane87 07:46, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

That's actually the way it was set up a while ago, but it was changed so that it would be easier to see which bosses worked together, which bosses were missing from the list, and remove a lot of the OR of which bosses are the same basic thing (like Mazaal and Gohdan and Bongo Bongo, Kalle Demos and Barinade). That would solve the Gohma problem (by shooting a thermonuke at a fly), but it would entail a good deal of work re-including the bits to which game the boss was in. If others agree with that solution, and can figure out a way to fix the problems that the previous setup had solved, then lets do it.KrytenKoro

I agree. I was thinking of keeping the same format, but only using the info for the paticular game in question. (Adventure of Link Volvagia in his section, OOT Volvagia in his. Keep 'em seperate.) But, yours actually sounds easier, so I say we do that.Ultimahero

I say we work on that first, then we'll work out the Gohma section. It'll give everyone a chance to cool down, and it will make this article look MUCh better. Also, I saw some gameguidish stuff, we'll need to trim that back. DurinsBane87 07:54, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Okay. Although I don't think anyone's angry. Just a disagreement.

I understand that, but you're also at a standstill. That standstill may end due to some option that opens during our reformatting. DurinsBane87 07:59, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Alright. Let's not start a new argument. Ha ha.

So, then, where do we begin? Might it just be easier to scrap the page and work from the bottom up? Ultimahero

I dunno, I started just by analyzing the list and cutting and pasting. Seems to work well enough. Also, I belieive that various forms of various bosses should be under the same header. Also, only played the NES, N64, GC, and Wii Legend of Zelda's, so I won't know much about the guys from the other games.DurinsBane87 08:16, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

I've played all of them, except that I haven't finished AoL, so I'm familiar with all but those guys. From here, we have:

Making sure that all the links actually point to relevant info
Removing all those nasty links to list of character pages - 9 times out of 10, its only there because it's a boss, not because it's actually a character (exceptions include Volvagia, Blizzeta)
Remove OR like "this boss seems to resemble", or "this bosses name might come from"
Remove the parts where's its too game-guidey
Make sure each section has a mention for each appearance of the boss

It's a good deal of work, but it's doable.

By the way, if you mean "various forms" being put together like Big Octo and Big Octorok, stuff like that - well, even though it's based on the same kind of creature, those are vastly different bosses, and really don't fit nearly at all - the fact that there even is a Gohma page is a constant thorn in my side. If it's something where at the least the name is the same, or better yet, the design and AI - well, that would be more acceptable.KrytenKoro 09:20, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

What I think would be appropriate for Gohma would be one section under "Gohma," and saying something along the lines of blah, this boss recurs frequently in various zelda games, often drastically changing in appearance and nature, linked mainly by it's single weakness, it's eye" Not verbatim, f course, but along those lines. I think Armogohma should go in there. And i think once we polish that section up, we can get rid of the seperate gohma page.DurinsBane87 09:25, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

...I'm a bit wary of combining sections based on name similarities, even very convincing ones like that, because of all the Gleeock=Gleerock stuff from earlier, but at least that one should be acceptable (after all, it is Armored Gohma in japanese).KrytenKoro 09:32, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

That's exactly what i mean. Gleeock/Gleerock is debatable. Armored Gohma/Gohma really isn't.DurinsBane87 09:38, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Yea, I want to incorporate all the pages that had been removed. Gohma, Dodongo, etc. Ultimahero

Question about Big Octorock.....according to the blurb he really just seems to be a regular octorock. I havent looked at the octorock page, but if it's in decent condition, i think we should just send a link to that article. I mean, technically speaking the only difference is that Link is small. but it's the same creature. all the differences are really difference's in LinkDurinsBane87 09:38, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

That would be okay, but the Octorok page needs to have some mention, similar to what we have here, of the boss - as it was, it had no info at all about the boss.KrytenKoro 09:50, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

I moved the Big Octorok stuff over to the Octorok page.172.130.40.219 16:43, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

It's becoming apparent (at least to me), that reordering by name seems to make it look more like just an indiscriminate list and jumble of info. Since game wasn't liked by the editing team, and alphabetical makes it what wikipedia is not supposed to be---well, actually, deckiller's tags make sense. Once you guys remove all the stuff that you don't think is appropriate, we're basically left with a large list with no real notability to it - for example, who cares that the Deku Toad is a large frog? That's not really any reason for it to even be in a list. I'm really starting to think that this page should be moved to wikiknowledge, like other similar lists (since the Zelda wikia already has all this info in spades). I mean, in all honesty, how are we ever going to get out-of-universe stuff for anything other than Ganon, Vaati, and possibly Dark Link? Thoughts?KrytenKoro 20:25, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Boss Battle Rewards

Ok, we seem to have run into a bit of a snag. We need to decide whether or not to include what prize is awarded for defeating various boss. I vote that we take out the prize, because the prize given has little to do with the actual nature of the boss, and is somewhat game guidey, in my opinion. Weigh in with your opinions. DurinsBane87 09:52, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree. It's not a walkthrough, just a general description of the bosses. Ultimahero

However, removing that bit of info removes the info on why the creatures even a true-boss (and thus, minimally notable), at all. Except for those enemies and sub-bosses that are in the way of getting to the boss, there's nothing Link fights without it being a contribution to his quest to save the world - if Aquamentus did not have the Fertile Soil, for example, Link would just leave him there, as he was doing nothing wrong and causing no other trouble.KrytenKoro 09:57, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

I havent played that game, so I can't say anything about that. But every boss in every game i can recall will attack you once you walk into it's room. Whatever reward you get is basically chance. I mean, you can tell what you're gonna get from tell-tale signs in the temple, but Link wouldn't walk into a room and go "hey, Big blobby frog, you've got a clawshot in your belly, and imma kill you for it."DurinsBane87 10:01, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Good point. Link kills the enemies more out of self defense than anything else. He gets locked in a room with a huge monster. He aint just gonna sit there. Ultimahero

But he doesn't enter the Gnarled Root Dungeon out of self-defense - he goes there specifically because he is on a quest to rechieve the Fertile Soil. Same with TP, LA, OoS, and so-on - the only time it could be called self-defense is in OoT and MM, where he still knows hes going in there to rescue a sage or giant that can help him defeat the big boss.KrytenKoro 17:50, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

For a real-world analogy - would you say that the troops who stormed Normandy were only shooting at the Germans in self-defense? Except in the case of OoT and MM, Link is essentially going into someone else's house and killing them when they get annoyed.KrytenKoro 18:22, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

In some cases the monsters shouldn't be there in the first place. (Deku Tree, Dodongo Cavern, Jabu-Jabu) But, evern in TP, LA OOS, and the others you were mentining, he doesn't go in to kill monsters. He goes to get something, such as a Fertile Soul, and has to kill a monster in the process. Ans I'l take back my earlier posted example of Link cleansing the Deku Tree. That is one of the few time he does go in for the soul purpose of killing. He's trying to break the curse, not get a reward. But, still, most of the time the mmonster killing is just coincidental. Ultimahero

I have to agree with Ultimahero on his rationale; Link has only ever been tasked with acquiring certain items or slaying the game's main antagonist. In the case of the former, the monsters are a casualty in that they must die for them to surrender their item, and in the latter, Ganon/Ganondorf is the only one that Link is truly out to kill. The treasure isn't notable because it's being guarded by a particular boss; the boss is notable because he's protecting the treasure, the one thing that Link is questing to find. That said, the bosses can be noted, though I don't think it's necessary to list what treasure they guard (aside from the obligatory heart container). Zelda treasures might work out better in a separate article unto themselves, or in the game's respective article; otherwise, this article is just turning into a guide. PeanutCheeseBar 22:28, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

"He goes to get something, such as a Fertile Soul, and has to kill a monster in the process."

"he goes there specifically because he is on a quest to rechieve the Fertile Soil."

Compare please. Why do you phrase it as a disagreement? I'm specifically saying that that is why the bosses have any reason to even be mentioned on this page. For mentioning heart container, though - all "bosses" drop them - why would we need to mention it? That can easily be put at the beginning of the article - something like "All dungeon bosses depicted in the games so far leave behind Heart Containers once defeated." - however, the treasure (the Triforce, the Essences of Nature) are pretty much the main differentiation between true bosses and all other enemies.KrytenKoro 20:12, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Well, we don't want to make a game guide out of this, and stating in game rewards is the first step. Next it'll be how Link is able to defeat them, and then how he progressed thtough the dungeon to get there, etc. We just need a general description of the boss. Besides, many think this article is too long as it is, and listing item rewards just adds to that length. Ultimahero

Then do we even need a description of what the boss looked like (since its not notable at this point), or what dungeon it guarded (which is just as game-guidey, if not more)?

Also - article length is never reason to exclude info that can be shown to be appropriate - it is a reason to trim info that is extraneous, crufty, or otherwise OR. If it can be shown that the boss-rewards help assert notability (at least in the context of the game), then the mention should be here. Boss attack pattern, boss-appearance, and boss name-origins are, in all honesty, completely superfluous, crufty information (especially since boss-appearance is never anything but personal interpretation). The "gameguidey" "Which dungeon?" and "What does it leave behind?" are the only things actually relevant and non-OR in any of this article.KrytenKoro 20:31, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

In short - I can accept boss rewards being rejected as too "game-guidey" - in that case, I'd like it to be shown how the character appearance can ever be non-OR, and how there is any notability, even in-universe, asserted in this article. We can easily just provide a link to the wikia or wikiknowledge instead of the "See also: Bosses in The Legend of Zelda series" links.KrytenKoro 20:35, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

To say Goham is a boss character in the Legend of Zelda seris. She appears in...blah, blah blah. And give a general description of what it looks like, because it is notable. Also, a notable trait, such as her eye is a point of weakness. Etc. You just don't want to get into the whole 'This boss can be defeasted if you...and in reward you will be granted...'. It's not a walkthrough. And, too much info can be harmful, even if relevant. It can be too descriptive, and too long a read. For example, I edited the OOT plot outline a while back, but it was rejected because I greatly expanded the plot and covered every detail. It's just a synapsios, not a novel. Ultimahero

Merely being a character in a series does not make something notable - A Man in Black could tell you this. The "notable trait" that you gave, while very likely true, is completely OR, and will probably always be. Furthermore, it IS the exact "this boss can be defeated" that you are against. Boss's appearance will also ALWAYS be OR, and furthermore, your argument for its notability is circular - the boss is notable because of its appearance, and the appearance is notable because its the bosses? If I'm interpreting you wrong, then why is the boss at all notable? And even then - why is the appearance worth mentioning - you can't just claim something is notable, you have to show why.

Most walkthroughs that I've read don't care what the reward is, because it's almost always a story item with no relevance to gameplay besides making you beat the bosses in a specific order. It does, however, explain why this character is a boss, why Link even cares to kill it - otherwise, the claim that it is a boss in the series is just that - a claim, with no reason as to why. Good articles should explain the claims they make - they cannot just rely on the trust of the reader. The only possible solution to this, while still keeping the article, would be to rely wholly on the NOA guides - not even the game, as it never (or at least, maybe once or twice in the series, and as a more political than gameplay type) actually calls them a boss. And then, we have the problem of how the NOA guides are verifiable at all.

As for the problem with novels - I do not see how describing why Link needs to kill the enemy makes it into a novel. It's one sentence - if we did remove all of what is truely OR, each section would be something like "Volvagia is the boss of the Fire Temple in Ocarina of Time. Defeating it grants Link the Fire Medallion" - everything else in that section is pretty much OR.KrytenKoro 21:11, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

My novel comment was a hyperbole. I'm saying you can put to much in and in effect kill the article becaue no one will read it. Now, the booses are notable becuase their defeat allows progression through the game. But, the danger in saying what you get from every incarnation of every boss of evey game is that you greatly increase the article length. And, while the item you is recieve is sometimes important (I say sometimes because heart containers are helpful, but not necessary for the game to continue), couldn't you argue that the methods used to kill each boss are important as well? And where the boss resides? And how Link came about to having to fight such a creature? It can go on and on, and at some poitn you have to draw a line. Ultimahero

I think it can be determined that a boss is notable if he's guarding an item that is essential to storyline progression (which is typically the case), or if the boss has appeared in more than one game in the series. However, as Ultimahero said, there is a point where too much info turns the article into a guide, and given the snowball effect of inclusion that some users pursue, that will likely be the case here. PeanutCheeseBar 22:28, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't actually have a problem with putting it in, it's just that I'm not really sure where to draw the line on these things. What should be included and what shouldn't? I just want to make sure we don't go overboard. Ultimahero

Boss Rewards should probably be mentioned - its the reason Link is even in the dungeon. A difference in OoT, MM, and WW, where the "reward" is a symbol of why he was there - for example, in the Earth Temple, he is trying to help Medli become the Sage, and in the Water Temple, he is trying to save Lake Hylia and awaken Ruto, or the Snowhead Temple, where he is trying to rescue the giant/end the winter.

As for defeating them allowing progression through the game - so does defeating the Baby Dodongos in one room, or setting of a Bomb Flower at the right place. That doesn't make it notable - by that logic, its just a facet of gameplay, not an important part of it. As for the methods to defeat the boss - not only are those uncertain (there are different ways to approach each boss), but they are quite literally purely gameplay. The rewards item is almost always part of the plot, and the bosses' characters. Heart containers are also purely gameplay, can be skipped, and not important if you're good at the games. For how Link came about to fighting the creature - if you mean how he got through the dungeon, then that's about the dungeon, not the creature. The boss is part of the dungeon, not the other way around. If you mean why he's in the dungeon in the first place - yes, that is important. Where the boss resides - if you mean the dungeon, that's worth noting, because it differentiates him from the other 145 bosses here. If you mean the arena - that is part of its character, as its its specific lair, and sometimes part of the boss itself (would Moldorm have been a problem if he couldn't knock you into a pit?)

Yes, a line should be drawn somewhere - and its very easy to do that - if it asserts the boss' notability (at the farthest, in-universe notability), then it is appropriate here. The tactics for fighting Stalfos (the same as many of its minor-enemy appearances), or how you got through the dungeon to fight Barinade in Jabu-Jabu's Belly (you have to do almost the same thing to get to a common Tailparasin as to get to Barinade - Barinade just takes a step or two longer), or its appearance (Hebi Baba's also look like large Deku Babas - Diababa's not the only one) do not strongly differentiate the boss, or assert notability in any way - the fact that we had so many "Barinade looks like Kalle Demos", "Agahnim fights like Phantom Ganon", or "the puzzles to get to Phantom Ganon were reminiscent of the puzzles to get to Stallord" serve as testament to that fact. Yes, now that we have no organizational way to force those links from occuring, we have to be harder about drawing the line - but why Link is there, and where he is back up the claim that this is a boss, and why it is worth mentioning.KrytenKoro 19:17, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Something I just remembered - PAA Gohma will not attack until you seek it out, and most every other boss resides behind a "Boss Lock" - Link knows that there is a creature back there, and by going in the room anyway, he is asserting a challenge against it.KrytenKoro 19:19, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Multiple pictures and official art vs. screenshots

In order to make the article more standardized, we should probably either use pictures in all available cases, only for true bosses, only for final bosses, or not at all. There exists official art for all of the LoZ, OoT, MM, and TP bosses (that I know of), and it should be easily findable (for example, I can get the LoZ art, but I'm not sure if I know how to source it correctly). In cases where there is not official art for the enemy (for AoL or LA, for example), there are plentiful sprite resources like the ones already used for this page.

This would remove what is otherwise going to be OR (the character descriptions), but would pose another problem, since I believe that having too many images on a page is unnacceptable. Personally, I don't think there is official art for most of the sub-bosses, even in games where there's art for the bosses, so I would be fine with leaving those without art. However, this would also mean that there will not be a character description, unless we use something like "According to the "Nintendo Gallery" character listing in The Wind Waker, Big Octo's are gigantic squids that populate the Great Sea.". However, we have to remember - if it can't be sourced, it cannot be here. In a few cases, in-game or in-universe sources are acceptable - but our own analysis absolutely is not.

In perfect honesty, I can't really see how we can fix the problems tagged in the article without either

Making the article something wikipedia is not, or
Removing the info here, excluding major plot characters (which can be covered on the characters pages) such as Blizzeta, Volvagia, and the big five (Ganon, Zelda, Dethl, Vaati, Majora).KrytenKoro 23:02, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Skeletonize Response

Yes Gurko, skeletonize is a real word. Here is the definition.

skel·e·ton·ize(skl-tn-z) tr.v. skel·e·ton·ized, skel·e·ton·iz·ing, skel·e·ton·iz·es 1. To reduce to skeleton form: "Carnivorous beetles ... can skeletonize a bat within hours" Scientific American. 2. To outline or sketch briefly. 3. To reduce in size or number: skeletonized the hospital staff to cut costs.

Personally I think saying that Gleeock's body "became skeletonized" sounds a lot better than saying Gleeock's body "turned into a skeleton", but it doesn't really matter too much either way.172.145.47.27 19:26, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Oh, okay. Sorry about that then. In my slight defense, English isn't my native language. Gurko 20:46, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

No problem Gurko, there are a good deal of English words in existence that a majority of native English speakers don't know either. ;) I have one minor suggestion that may help prevent such things in the future. If you are uncertain if a word is real or not you could try looking it up in an English dictionary. :) There are several dictionary based websites (http://dictionary.reference.com/) for such a thing if you don't have a hard copy available to reference from.172.145.47.27 21:21, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Sure, I'll do that when in doubt. Thanks. Gurko 22:04, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

LCD handheld game and CD-i game bosses.

I know these games are technically not considered canon within the accepted Zelda Universe, but for the sake of completeness to the Bosses page should we try to include some mention of the bosses from these games as well? If so, these are currently the bosses that I know of that would need mentioning.

Aquamentus - Recurring boss of the LCD Zelda wristwatch game by Nelsonic. Already has an entry, so only a brief one sentence mention would be needed.

Dragon - Recurring boss of the LCD Zelda Game & Watch game by Nintendo. This would need a new entry to be included. To my knowledge it has no official name besides just "Dragon."

Ganon (spelled Gannon) - Final boss in all three of the CD-i games (Link: Faces of Evil, Zelda: Wand of Gamelon, and Zelda's Adventure). Ganon already has a seperate page, so no entry would be needed here. I also believe it already does have mention to his CD-i boss appearances, so nothing needs to added to that page.172.135.113.216 14:15, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

They're not really considered part of the series according to the nintendo site, either. But, it also makes sense to have them here - I can't really think of any argument against it that doesn't draw on OR.KrytenKoro 09:55, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

I have added the bosses for Link: Faces of Evil and Zelda: Wand of Gamelon. The bosses for Zelda's Adventure are a bit harder to track down, but I will try to find them as well. There is video of all seven bosses from that title, but their exact names are not always obvious. Here is what I know:

Shrine of Earth: The golem is called Lort (as he says at the beginning of his dungeon).
Shrine of Illusion: I think this is supposed to be Harlequin from Link: Faces of Evil.
Shrine of Air: The bird boss is called Aviana.
Shrine of Destiny: Although she looks nothing like her incarnation in the rest of the series, this boss identifies herself as Moldorm.
Shrine of Water: The water boss is called Agwanda.
Shrine of Strength: This boss does not reappear at the end of the game, oddly enough, and resembles a bear. He is called Ursala. This shrine's sub-boss is called the Red Knight, but I do not know the main boss's name.
Shrine of Fire: The dragon boss is named Warbane, as indicated when you first enter the shrine.

As I said, I will continue to try and find out all of their names and update it here, but if anyone knows the ones I am missing we could conclude this search. Seth0708 (talk) 16:06, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

I have tracked down the names of all the bosses and will post them on the article page. Seth0708 (talk) 02:13, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Blind OR

This may be in one of the mangas - It is NOT in the game. Please correct, if it is even from those and not just fanfiction (which I suspect it is):

Blind is the only one of Ganon's servants who has any of his past shown in the game: He was once the leader of a murderous band of thieves in Hyrule called the "Dark Eyes", who eventually disappeared. It was later revealed that they wandered into the Dark World, where Blind became one of Ganon's minions. He is called Blind because he hates bright light.

Response - I don't exactly remember how in depth the game goes into Blind's origin, but the game does indeed expand on his role as character more so than the other bosses. By talking to the various villagers in Kakariko, the villagers in the Village of Outcasts (Thieve's Town), the theives in the Lost Woods, and maybe even a few of the "pay for info" guys you do learn that Blind was the current leader of the thieves (I can't remember if they are referred to as "Dark Eyes" or not) till his mysterious disappearance (assumably because of his entrance into the Dark World) and that Blind hates bright light.)172.135.78.203 16:56, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

response further, info to add as a ref: this is all that is said about Blind in the game, besides on of the in-dungeon hints about not falling for his tricks:

Yo Link! This house used to be a hideout for a gang of thieves. What was their leader's name...Oh yeah, his name was Blind and he hated bright light a lot.

A google search turns up no relevant sites with "blind" "a link to the past" "dark eyes".

There is also these:

Heh heh. Thank you. To tell you the truth, I used to be a thief in the Light World... some of my fellow thieves went into hiding because they were afraid of being caught. One of them was a master locksmith, but now he is hiding the fact that he was a thief... ...by pretending to be a strange middle-aged guy! Ha ha ha...

CLink... It's me, Zelda...Don't be deceived by the magic of Blind the Thief! Be careful!

Hey kid, this is a secret hide-out for a gang of thieves! Don't enter without permission! By the way, I heard that one of our ex-members is staying at the entrance to the Desert.

The first is the only mention one of the pay-guys gives - and in this, he gives affiliation to the current gang of thieves, not the ones that Blind led and that disappeared. I think you're probably confusing Blind with Ganondorf's backstory (since Ganondorf did lead a bunch of murderous thieves).KrytenKoro 10:12, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

As I stated above, from the game you do learn Blind was the current leader of the thieves (the current Lost Woods thieves that is) till his mysterious disappearance (due to his (Blind, not all of the thieves) entrance into the Dark World). You also learn that Blind hates bright light. So at least that much of his character bio should remain as it is in the actual game.

The whole "Dark Eyes" thing, I'm not certain where that info. came from or who provided it. You could be right in that someone is confusing Ganon's story with Blind's story or that it is from one of the LttP comics/mangas. All I can provide you on that is that Blind has no mention in the Nintendo Power comic adaptation of LttP. That particular LttP adaption does provide some backstory on Ganon's past as a thief and his group though. So it could be possible that is where the "Dark Eyes" thing came from. If you can find a copy of the Nintendo Power comic to examine it should be under the chapter titled "A Fool in the Shape of a Tree".172.135.78.203 16:56, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

No, it was said that Blind was the leader of a group of thieves who used to use that place as a hide-out - its never mentioned that these are the same thieves Link talks to, and since Blind's dungeon is actually called Thieves' Town (at least in the most current release), its quite likely that they followed him to the Dark World. Its also important to note that those rat-faced enemies who make you drop rupees when they hit you are also called "Thieves" - and these are Dark World enemies, as well (though there is a Light World version, as well). No "mysterious disappearance" is ever mentioned - we know that one group split up when the heat got on their tail, and the group Blind was with stopped using the specified house as a hideout. It is never mentioned that Blind disappeared to the Dark World - you find that out on your own.

In any case - everything I just mentioned is pretty much moot anyway, since we all agree that section was OR, yes? Good.KrytenKoro 09:29, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Phantom Hourglass Spoilers

Hey sure, thanks for spoiling the Hourglass final boss. Whose the prick that would even add the final boss to the boss list this early? At least include a warning for the rest of us who aren't lucky enough to know Japanese.

be more specific. I don't know which bosses to look at for spoilers. Because I see where it tells you what they give you, but i've only looked at a few. I don't understand what kind of prick would look at an article about bosses in zelda and then be suprised that theirs information about bosses in a zelda game. DurinsBane87 02:33, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

I guess I'm an idiot for not expecting the final boss of an unreleased game (in America, anyways) to appear on a boss list. Or atleast, without some kind of warning. And, specifically, I'm talking about Bellum.

the article is titled " Bosses in the Legend of Zelda series," so there's no reason why there wouldn't be mention of a boss, especially a Final Boss, from a Legend of Zelda game. As for a spoiler warning, the warning would have been longer than the whole line dedicated to the boss. If you don't want spoilers, you shouldn't read articles that would contain those obvious spoilers. DurinsBane87 02:45, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Except I had absolutely no reason to assume that the bosses for an unreleased Zelda game were all added. It's not like Phantom Hourglass has been out for months now.

just because it isn't out in the US doesnt mean it doesn't exist. There's no reason why information shouldn't be included just because it isn't in america yet. DurinsBane87 02:53, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

I've got nothing against the information being there, I just have something against the lack of a warning. "This article has been updated with Phantom Hourglass bosses. Read at your own risk." And when the game comes out, you can take it off. I don't understand why that is such a ridiculous concept. The majority of people in America haven't played Phantom Hourglass. And it's going to suck for the small number that stumbles onto this article and get themselves spoiled because "they should have known better". And I know there's almost no information about the final boss, but I would have hated it if someone walked up to me after purchasing Twilight Princess and just said "The final boss is Ganondorf." It ruins the surprise.

no one walked up to you and said it. You read it somewhere where it belonged. Why should there be an extra warning about bosses in a released game. There are people who haven't played Ocarina of time and Twilight Princess. Should we put spoilers up until everyone's played them? DurinsBane87 03:04, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Released in JAPAN. I can't read Japanese, and therefore, cannot import the game. Like the majority of America. Just because you know or have played the game doesn't mean the rest of us shouldn't a feel even a little pissed seeing the final boss this early.

i havent played the game. But this isn't an encyclopedia of things in america. It's an encyclopedia. DurinsBane87 03:12, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

I know people here are usually on top of things, but even I didn't expect to see something like that 3 months before the game's release. I don't understand how that makes it my fault.

It isn't 3 months before the games release. it's a few weeks AFTER it's release. I mostly took this up this argument because i was sick of seeing my watchlist populated by you reorganizing your curses and insults. DurinsBane87 03:23, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Hahaha, hey dude, I was pissed. What can I say? I just thought this whole situation merited calling someone a prick, so I edited that in.

I don't know if this discussion is still going on, but Wikipedia is not censored.KrytenKoro 16:31, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

I'll admit that I am also a bit suprised by how quickly the Phantom Hourglass bosses were put up. Not so much because I didn't expect to be spoiled (that is kind of common sense risk you take when you are looking at any game's/games' list of bosses). What suprised me about their inclusion so early is the fact we (from what I've seen anyway) aren't even 100% certain what the US names for the bosses are yet. My guess is that these are translations of the bosses names into english. If that is the case we may have to do some moving around later if the US names don't quite match up with the translations.172.130.98.254 00:59, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

I suppose I'll apologize for last night. I was really excited about Hourglass because it looked like an awesome new Zelda with a new villain. And now that that villain's spoiled... Ah, well, what are you going to do?

Fair use tags...

I've added fair use tags to many images, however I can't do this by myself. I'd appreciate it if other people can help out by posting fair use tags on images that need them. I'll continue to do more tomorrow. Hardcore gamer 48 09:57, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

More fixes

We need to add {{-}} to each section to keep pictures from overlapping. Also, we need to make sure that the boss's name doesn't link back to a characters page, as all of their information is here, and that every incarnation of a boss is mentioned.

Also, we need to make sure that gameguide stuff isn't getting in here, because it keeps creeping in. This article is supposed to be about how the bosses relate, as characters, to the story and to the game, not as play elements, unless we can agree that that play element is extremely important.KrytenKoro 13:58, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Revising

Seriously, this is irrelevant and overkill. It needs to go the same way as Enemies in TLoZ series, i.e. remove insignificant, one-time bosses and improve sections on those with more notability. There seems to be some ambiguity between what is a boss and an enemy, too; would some sort of a merge with Enemies be appropriate for this? And, of course, references. Haipa Doragon (talk) 21:25, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Actually, this page was split from the enemies page since it was pretty clear what is a boss (gives the dungeon's final treasure/quest item), what is a mini-boss (depends on game - in OoT and MM, has special music, in others, warp panel, in others still, dungeon weapon). The hardest bit about your suggestion is that the bosses that have real notability are already on their respective character pages. I had at one point suggested ordering the sections by game, but that was shot down. I really can't think of any way to follow your proposal (without simply trimming the cruft that always creeps in), without just transwiking it.KrytenKoro 02:36, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

In all fairness I agree with KrytenKoro's rationale on this one. The notable bosses already have their own character pages. To gut this page (which is 10 times more organized than what the previous Enemies in TLoZ page ever was) would pretty much render its purpose to being completely useless. As for the ambiguity between what is a boss and what is an enemy, I think a lot of that stems from how certain creatures seem to evolve/change on a game to game basis. In one Zelda game a creature could be a normal enemy, the next Zelda game it could be a boss, then in the next Zelda could have it as both by making different sub-categories of the same creature. Dodongo is a prime example of this trend to change from boss to enemy and back again on a game to game basis (though it cetainly isn't the only one).172.164.232.234 05:06, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I've changed my mind. This is mostly just a load of boss-defeating strategies, I'd say it's more worthy of a deletion or transwiking. There are a few good pieces of information in here, but with all the guide stuff removed, I don't think there will really be much left. Haipa Doragon (talk) 21:00, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree that the guide material should obviously be removed, but I don't agree that that's all that's there. For Armogohma, for instance - not once are the statues mentioned, but there's still a fair-sized section there.KrytenKoro 21:15, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Do you think it will be worth it to copy the current revision over to my user page, and then try cutting out the inappropriate information there, to see what it will be like? Haipa Doragon (talk) 21:46, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

That would probably be a good idea. On a related note, is anyone still working on the draft we have on my page?KrytenKoro 04:28, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Where is this draft? Haipa Doragon (talk) 16:00, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Oh, the enemies one - I don't have a bosses one.KrytenKoro 17:53, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Ah; I haven't worked on that one for a long time. Haipa Doragon (talk) 19:32, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Spiny ChuChus

I removed this section of the article because it doesn't link anywhere. Feel free to put it back, but make sure it's linked to something that makes sense, or better yet, just throw in a description on this page, as the existing article on ChuChus does not mention the Spiny ChuChus.Cocoapropo 03:52, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

I put it back in and linked it to the LoZ enemies page entry on Chus. Spiny Chus are briefly mentioned as "being grey a capable of forming spikes" in that entry. The entry doesn't reflect the fact that a large group of them are fought as a sub-boss in Minish Cap though.172.166.43.41 04:55, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

What I meant, though, is for someone to either give a brief description in the article, or to link it to something about Spiny ChuChus, specifically. No mention of Spiny ChuChus are made on the page to which you linked it. I've played through The Minish Cap only once, and unfortunately, I don't have much of a recollection of such things. Some sort of description is preferable.Cocoapropo 03:55, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Important Cleanup

Okay, this is of utmost importance for this article.

We need to be searching for any verifiable, reliable sources, and including as much info on development, criticism, and impact as possible. Google news and Google scholar might be our best bets for now, and it might be a good idea to ask for help on the FF project, since they are quite good at finding and writing this info.

After we have those sections up, we need to remove all cruft. Any bosses should have, at most, a short description of their appearance, their place in the plot (if they have story info, what dungeon they are the boss of, and why Link is fighting them (their boss reward)). How they fight and how they can be defeated should not be mentioned unless it is talked about in a reliable source, or is somehow a major point in the storyline.

Any boss sections we can condense, like Dodongos or Gleeocks, should be done so. However, we need to make sure that we don't introduce OR, and start grouping Vitreous and Kholdstare, stuff like that.Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 03:43, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

I also really think that, to make this less of a "bad list", it needs to be reorganized by game (or more specifically, type) - many of the games, such as PH, LA, OoT, TP, or MM, have their bosses be more than just monsters - in PH, they are phantasms of corrupted Life Force, in LA, they are manifested nightmares, in OoT, they are curses cast on the temples, in TP they are possessed by the Shadows or Mirror, and in MM, they are the possessed Gods. Grouping them together, perhaps reducing the sections to more bulleted lists for each game, would really help the article. Anything with real story info is already on another page, so all we should really have on this page are the ones that are "Boss of, looks like, gives you". If we can get real-world info on them, great, but otherwise, condensation guys!

This would also help have a "purpose in game" bit for each game - we could say "sub-bosses in this game guard the dungeon's weapon, while bosses serve to guard the dungeon's treasure and increase the amount of time Link can spend in the Temple of the Ocean King".

In any case, I'll give these suggestions three or four days, and then I'm going to start putting them through and massively reorging the article (again). I'll also try to look for real world sources, but since I'm not a good writer for such things, I'll leave them as notes in a section of the talk page I will create below; then, more skilled writers can add them to the article.

Here's what I think it might look like - we include a short few sentences on the purposes/plot of the bosses in the games, with a bulleted list, with the format "Name boss of the Dungeon"/"Name, who guards the Reward in the Dungeon" (the first used for instances like TLoZ or TP, where the boss is the reward, or the reward is not unique, the second used for instances like LA or OoA, where they are guardians) This can be more specialized for instances like Stallord or the OoT bosses. Sub-bosses, unless related to the boss, should be in a lower section, as they are often just to guard the room.

And if a boss has non-character info that deserves mentioning, such as Aquamentus being the boss of that one game, or appearing in a TV-show, then the info can be described in the "recurring bosses" section.

If a boss is not recurring, then after the identifying sentence, we should have one of the format "It resembles a Thing, and attacks by Being an A**hole". Under no circumstances should we include the strategy for defeating the boss, since as of now, this has never been anything but gamecruft.Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 19:46, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Hey, Artichoker, since you seem to be the only other one editing at this time - would you like to help me set up the new format, since a lot of the guide material you've added can't stay, anyway? The link is in the paragraph above, and the format is pretty clear.Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 19:31, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Ok, sure I'll help. What do you want me to do? Artichoker 19:35, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Do you want me to help edit that page? Artichoker 19:39, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

...basically, go to that page, and help fill out the format as described above and as exampled with Legend of Zelda.Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 19:47, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Another thing, where do I put the mini-bosses (sub-bosses)? Artichoker 20:03, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

I would suggest putting the non-story sub-bosses in a section below the boss list. Like Great Moblin, who needs to be mentioned, but really doesn't work well in the list of eight. Also, only recurring bosses would get the linkage to later sections, as they would merit further commentary.Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 20:21, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Should I put the regular mini-bosses right below their respective bosses? Artichoker 20:25, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Dodongo Revising

I have noticed that this article contains all of the information about Dodongos, including ones that are NOT bosses. I propose that we move the bulk of the information into Enemies in The Legend of Zelda series section, but keep the info about the different Dodongo bosses here. What do you guys think? Artichoker 17:43, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Even when they are not bosses, they are still mostly the same creature, so putting them in another section would require undue weight or redundancy. Also, they are for the most part a species of bosses. This is not supposed to be just an indiscriminate list, so it is healthy for it to group the info about their non-boss counterparts and group it for better analysis.Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 18:28, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Ok, that makes sense. Artichoker 19:13, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Shift in focus

All of the one game bosses will be cut from this list, as they are nothing more than game guide material. The alternative is just to let this become a redirect, as this is not a fansite. We are not here to cover the various parts of your favorite series. TTN (talk) 15:19, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

I say redirect. In this state, it looks awful. The Prince (talk) 17:06, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Where would it redirect to? It can't redirect to Enemies in The Legend of Zelda series, because that is about recurring enemies in the game, not bosses. I think this page should be kept intact, but if it has to be stripped down, then take away the one game bosses, like TTN said. Artichoker (Talk | Contributions) 17:18, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Looking at your edit, I have realized that the bulk of bosses only appear in one game. Only appearing in one game does not make them non-notable. This article is not like Enemies in The Legend of Zelda series, where only the notable enemies are listed, but instead it should have all boss appearances, no matter how small, since every boss is notable. Artichoker (Talk | Contributions) 20:16, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Can you please explain what you think this site is about? This is not a fan site; it is an encyclopedia that covers a wider range than normal encyclopedia, but it is not an in-depth guide to everything. If you want to write about the characters in detail, the Zelda wiki is right over here. TTN (talk) 20:24, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

This article is a list of all the bosses in the Zelda series, with a short description for each. It has nothing to do with a fan site. Artichoker (Talk | Contributions) 20:25, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

In-depth, in-universe information that does not meet WP:FICT is fansite information. You may try to think otherwise, but that is how it rolls. This information belongs on a fan wiki, and it is going to end up there in the end. So if we can please just do this without the hassle of even more AfDs or anything else like that, that would be nice. TTN (talk) 20:28, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Ok. Artichoker (Talk | Contributions) 20:31, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Is that a sarcastic "OK, whatever, have fun." or an "OK, yes"? TTN (talk) 20:35, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Sheesh! Basically it means, I see your point. And you can go ahead and revert my edit. =) Artichoker (Talk | Contributions) 20:38, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Oh, sorry. I just get first response a lot. TTN (talk) 20:40, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

OK, now that this is cut down, any important generic bosses that aren't already covered in the character lists should be merged over to the enemy list. Enemies can refer to everything, so only the lead needs to be changed. The enemies as a whole have a decent chance at being sourced, so that is the best bet for this. TTN (talk) 20:55, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Recurring bosses have no more notability than single-appearance bosses. For example, Dongorongo has been commented on in game reviews, while Aquamentus doesn't seem to have been. Yes, this article is in a sorry state - we are trying to do a rewrite that spends much less time on game info and instead focuses on what is needed for a good page. Instead of spending time on this page, please work on the sandbox page linked to above (that's why there's a note at the top saying this is the case). Working on this page itself is a waste of time, as its basic format has been designated as unacceptable. —Preceding unsigned comment added by KrytenKoro (talk • contribs) 02:16, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Pincer?

Found in the The Legend of Zelda sub-section:

Dodongo, boss of the Moon, L, and Pincer Dungeons.

Pincer? Just what dungeon is that one? I suppose it's refering to the Big Spiral dungeon; am I wrong? --190.198.118.46 (talk) 15:00, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

If I remember, these are the names given in the Collector's Edition guide. If not, then there's the possibility I made it up when typing up my lists several years ago, and you are welcome to replace it with any name you can find for it (provided it is canon, or at least well-used by the community).Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 07:53, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

If it's officially known as Pincer, then it'll keep being named as such. I knew that level as the Big Spiral dungeon due to many walkthroughs from GameFAQS. Possibly that was the original name in the NES version of the game and was changed for later versions (Collector's, GBA release and maybe Virtual Console) ... :).--Twicemost (talk) 02:44, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't have access to my collector's guide at this time, so if you have access to any canon sources, please check them.

The closest I can find so far is this. It uses the canon names for the first quest, but I'm having a real hard time believing "Wizard's Hat", "Spiral" and "Big Spiral". Plus, the other faq changes this to "Link's hat", "Spiral", and "Grand Spiral".Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 03:29, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, looking at it, I'm fairly certain that I made up those names when I originally typed up my list document, and I can't find a canon name for the Quest 2 dungeons. All bu the last three are fairly obvious or easy to name, so it's just 6, 7, and 8. I have no idea how we'll find the names for them, though, unless you know anyone from Nintendo. If anyone wants to check the Collector or original NP guide, please do.Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 03:32, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Then what we have here is the names given by Nintando versus the names given by the fans. However, something you can do is the following: Instead of writing Hook or Link's Hat, write Hook/Link's Hat, as both names seem to apply to the Second Quest's sixth level; and the eight level would be referred as Pincer/Big Spiral, as both names seem to apply to the eight dungeon of the Second Quest. Is there an alternate name for the Spiral dungeon?. --Twicemost (talk) 21:27, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

I was able to get my CE guide from home, and will check it tonight. However, I don't think Nintendo has given ANY names for those three dungeons, and the FAQ ones differ, and so cannot be relied upon. We could just write "5th Dungeon", or summat.Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 22:47, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

The main problem is that the game names the dungeons as Level 1, 2, 3, etc. and the well-known names are based on the shape of those dungeons. In any case, if you could find "official" names from the Collector's edition guide, which came from Nintendo, then those names seem to be the most ideal for the creators. So, by default, the names said in the article are the official ones. --Twicemost (talk) 23:52, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

I was able to check my guide today-

The Quest 1 dungeons are named, since they were named even in the original manuals. The first five dungeons of Quest 2 are also named, but the ones in question are just called "Dungeon 6/7/8". Finally, Death Mountain is Death Mountain in both quests.

I guess we could use the fan names, so long as we have some kind of note that these are unofficial and freely open to change.Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 01:37, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Well, go forth ^_^.--Twicemost (talk) 04:51, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Ball and Chain Trooper

I have another question. I know many fans (fans, why always fans?) consider the Ball and Chain Trooper (an enemy from A Link to the Past) as a boss; even in this article, that guy has mention as such; however, there are several details working against this:

When you find it, the boss music is not heard at all.
The enemy does not leave any Heart Containers.
The enemy does not leave any important item (like a Pendant or a Crystal) either.
The Instruction Blooket for GBA version of ALttP/Four Swords says that "There is no boss in Hyrule Castle, so you will not find a Big Key in there" (NOTE: Agahnim is in that castle but he is a boss because he's in the tower, which is shown a separate portion of the dungeon map section like if it was another dungeon).
When you go to find Agahnim and try to rescue Zelda, you'll find many Ball and Chain Trooper (now B.A.C.T. for short). This shows that they're only common enemies.

I might think the B.A.C.T. is considered a boss only because it is too strong to appear in a very early moment of the game. Even so, however, how was it possible a consensus (if there was one, of course) declarating this ordinary enemy as a boss? --Twicemost (talk) 04:21, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

It does guard the "treasure" of the dungeon, and is a mini-boss in other-games, so got a section here. And you do get a big key in that dungeon, so I'm not sure what the manual means. However, it has no jingle at all, and no arena, so we could probably remove that mention - it's still a boss/sub-boss in other games.Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 04:36, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Of course, it's a mini-boss in, for example, games like Twilight Princess (you fight it in Snowpeak Ruins and it leaves you the Ball and Chain as the battle's prize). The main problem is that this enemy is mentioned among the bosses of A link to the Past, but doesn't fulfill the requeriments listed. Additionally, you fight it in a middle part of the level, not at the end. Because of that, the fact that it's considered as a boss in that game is curious. And there's more: Remember that, in The Wind Waker, the Bokoblin you fight at the end of the first travel through the Forsaken Fortress guards a prize (your own sword) and the mini-boss music is heard. There's no stronger enemy and no other mini-boss in the level, so the Bokoblin would be a boss, it's the only candidate :). However, even with all that, it's not considered as such. That's why I wondered if there was a consensus among fans, or a confirmation from Nintendo (for example, though an official guide) that gave the B.A.C.T. the rank of boss in A Link to the Past.--Twicemost (talk) 05:46, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Darkhammer is a different enemy. Bokoblin should be listed as a mini-boss, it's just that we haven't really figured out how to write about non-story mini-bosses so far. I just checked my ALttP guide, and it gives no import to the B&C T, so go ahead and remove that mention.Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 07:09, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Done. I moved the appearance of the Trooper in A link to the Past in its subsection (located in the Recurring Bosses section).--Twicemost (talk) 17:27, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Merge and/or delete.

I suggest this be merged and/or deleted, on the reasoning that no assertion is made to say that any one of these bosses is notable at all. - A Link to the Past (talk) 01:00, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

They are not individually notable, no, but there are independent sources that cover them as a whole. I believe some of them are listed above, but if not, give us some time to add them in.Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 03:43, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

If the sources only cover them as a whole, then this should be a part of the series article, not mentioning any bosses in particular with the exception of Ganon and some other possible exceptions. I doubt the sources are covering their notability as characters, which is what this article is treating them as. - A Link to the Past (talk) 07:11, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

From the reviews I've read, bosses are often mentioned for part of the gameplay mechanics as well. We've tried to tone down this article as much as possible, to get rid of the unorganized mess it used to be, and I think if we could get a good reception writer to add in the info from creation and reception, we could do well on this article.Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 09:28, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes, they are mentioned in the gameplay. But the article is treated like a character article, not a gameplay article. The sources don't treat the bosses themselves as notable characters. - A Link to the Past (talk) 17:21, 6 May 2008 (UTC)