Talk:Bosnian language

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Archives
Please do not edit archived pages. If you want to react to a statement made in an archived discussion, please make a new header on THIS page. Vseferović 04:10, 24 January 2007 (UTC) Archives: Archive 1 - 2004 - end of 2006

[edit] Edit war

Erm, what's the big deal with this edit war? Most of the changes are cosmetic/stylish, except the inclusion of Ban Kulin charter, which should go in. I removed some argumentative text ("it ain't as old as some other documents but it's very old"), and rephrased it somewhat (it's not certain whether it's the oldest official text, at least without a source, so it's better to err on the side of caution). I find the "spoken by" expression simpler and less pompous than "native to" so I took that back as well. OK? Duja► 14:20, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Constantine the Philosopher

The article talks about something written by a certain "Constantine the Philosopher" in the summer of 1300. There were only two such people: one is Saint Cyril himself from the 9th century and the other is a Serbian writer from the end of the 14th and the first half of the 15th century.

There is no other Constantine the Philosoper. --PaxEquilibrium 02:10, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

I would say that it refers to Saint Cyril, since he was a lingust. Vseferović 23:13, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Cyril was born in 827 and died in 869. --PaxEquilibrium 23:38, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

It is surely not the Serbian one. So it must be saint cyril, I belive however that there is yet another Constantin, but I might be wrong and that "saint cyril" in fact is just another name for the very same linguist. I will change to the new date for now and look closer into the matter within the nearest days. However, as I saw it more text than just this one was changed, stating that "Bosnian language" is a language of Bosnians - which of course is correct, but not when "bosnians" refer to all inhabitants of Bosnia. This is unconstitutional since Bosnian law and dayton recognizes exclusively the Bosnian language as the language of Bosniaks. Ancient Land of Bosoni

How are you so sure it's not the Slavic one (the dates correspond to 1300 more than Saint Cyril)?

If there truly was yet another Constantine that was entitled "the Philosopher", I don't think that he's famous at all (not even one bit).

Sorry, I didn't understand what you meant with your last (two) sentence(s). --PaxEquilibrium 20:19, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

I've looked the http://www.zemljabosna.org and it says that a certain Byzantine writer Constantine the philosopher wrote "Skazanie iziavljeno o pismenah" at the end of the 14th century, so it actually perfectly fits the Slavic one... however I also found that the page from which I took is slightly controversial (who is this Constantine the Philosopher?). --PaxEquilibrium 20:30, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Pax check your talkpage, I left a message. =) Ancient Land of Bosoni

Yeah, saw it; thanks. --PaxEquilibrium 15:52, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

I created the article on the said Konstantin Filozof recently, unrelated with this discussion. Somehow I have the feeling that his alleged reference to the "Bosnian" as such has spread like an urban myth. I'd really like to see the excerpt from Skazanije -- it should is likely relatively easy to find (perhaps not on the internet, but the text seems relatively famous). That Constantine [of Kostenets] is nicknamed "Filozof" after st. Cyril for his erudition, and as such known in Ex-Yu republics (Bulgarians more often refer to him as "Konstantin Kostenechky") Duja► 13:59, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

I still don't get how could've he written something almost a century before his birth. ;))) --PaxEquilibrium 19:40, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Arebica / alhamijado

Can somebody please add some more detailed information in arebica script? I don't live in BiH, but I imagine that there is a lot of good information on Arebica in libraries in that country. Can some Wikipedian from that country please add detailed information on Arebica?

[edit] Official recognition in the Dayton Accord and Constitution?

One paragraph in the "Controversy" section makes two factual claims that are demonstrably false:

"It is important to observe that the Dayton Peace Accord officially recognizes and specifies the Bosnian language as a distinct language spoken in Bosnia and Herzegovina by Bosniaks."

I have read that accord, and so can you: http://www.ohr.int/dpa/default.asp?content_id=380

It does not say anything about any status of any language at all.

(It did, historically, make a strong implied statement by being originally delivered in four languages. That is not the same thing at all.)

"As such the Bosnian language is officially recognized by constitution of Bosnia and Herzegovina as well."

I have read that constitution, and so can you: http://www.ccbh.ba/eng/p_stream.php?kat=518

It does not say anything about any status of any language at all.

81.17.231.158 15:52, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] SERBOCROATIAN IS ONE LANGUAGE!

http://arhiv.slobodnadalmacija.hr/20060207/kultura01.asp

the above is the link to the article published in 'Liberated Dalmatia', a newspaper from Split, Dalmatia in 2006;

RAZGOVOR Prof. dr. IVO PRANJKOVIĆ, UGLEDNI JEZIKOSLOVAC, SUAUTOR NEDAVNO OBJAVLJENE GRAMATIKE HRVATSKOGA JEZIKA Hrvatski i srpski su jedan jezik VARIJETETI ISTOGA Na standardološkoj razini, hrvatski, srpski, bosanski, pa i crnogorski jezik različiti su varijeteti, ali istoga jezika. Dakle, na čisto lingvističkoj razini, odnosno na genetskoj razini, na tipološkoj razini, radi se o jednom jeziku i to treba jasno reći

Here’s the translation of the main title and the introduction article of this interview:

INTERVIEW: PROF.DR. IVO PRANJKOVIC, THE FAMOUS LINGUIST AND CO-AUTHOR OF THE RECENT PUBLISHED, GRAMMAR OF CROATIAN LANGUAGE’.

CROATIAN AND SERBIAN ARE ONE LANGUAGE! VARIETIES OF IT: On a standard level, Croatian, Serbian, Bosnian and now Montenegrin language are just varieties, but from a same language. Therefore, pure linguistically and typologically they are all ONE LANGUAGE and it should be said very clearly!

The rest of the text just confirms what’s in the title and the main article. In spite of all sick nationalists and evil propagators:-SERBOCROATIAN IS ONE LANGUAGE AND WILL STAY ONE FOREVER!CHEERS! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.86.127.107 (talk) 04:21, 9 April 2007 (UTC).

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Croatian_language"

As a speaker of Serbo-Croatian I can tell you it IS the same language if you call it Serbian, Bosnian or Croatian. It would be like going to London from Brooklyn and saying the Londoner would need an interpreter in Brooklyn 4.142.96.105 19:03, 22 September 2007 (UTC)eric

[edit] "Serbocroatian" in communist era

I put fact tag on this sentence, because it contradicts the general knowledge. The language was called as such even before (from Vienna accord, 1850, but not exclusively). --Plantago 09:14, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

I got an Idea how about just call the language Yugoslavian....It make it real easy

Why not Yugoslavian? Becasue ex-Yugoslavia contained Macedonia and Slovenia as well.

Yes it is the same language but Bosnians have just as much a right to call it Bosnian as Croats and Serbs have to call it by their ethnic nationality.

[edit] "Jargon"

Could someone explain the reference to "jargon" at the end of the page? Thanks. Jpaulm 19:50, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Name Again

I cannot understand how the article under this name still exists. After Dayton peace it was settled that there is no such thing as Bosnian nation; that the state of Bosnia belongs to Serbs and Croats as much as it does to Slavic Muslims who now call themselves Bošnjaks (Boshnyaks, Bosniaks, whatever). Therefore it is not acceptable for Bošnjaks to call themselves Bosnians when stating an ethnicity. I do not understand why the same approach is not applied to language. Tzuppy 23:06, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] POV

The beginning of the article, historical bit, is slightly POV. --PaxEquilibrium 19:35, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] JOKE

When is this joke about former Yugslav "languages" going to end. It is really quite comical, and the so-called "authors" are just nationalist pseudo-scientific charicatures. It is so obvious all this language division is political, in order for people X to intentionally seperate themselves from Y, and they even go back and find 'historical proofs' , by finding single words here and there that are peculiar to the region. I mean, every modern city has words and slang of its own, so by such reasoning New York and LA speak different languages.

Every realistic person surely realises that the South slavic languages are merely a continuum of one language, with regional pecularities here and then, that would naturally develop over centuries of differing external influences. The Serbo-Croatian continuum has less variance than, eg, Sicillian would compared to Milanese. if we had to seperate them realistically and according to real liguistics, then at best we could seperate them into western south slavic dialects (slovenian,stokovian, ikvian, etc) vs eastern south slavic (bulgarian, macedonian - which admitedly were probably one language anyway) Hxseek (talk) 11:25, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Hxseek, respect other nations. Respect national feelings, Hxseek. Croats and Serbs have, before politics began messing, called their languages with their national name. No Frankenstein coined terms.
The term "Serbo-Croatian" is heavily politically compromised, so please, don't use it.
In this sentencence you've said: "...with regional pecularities here and then, that would naturally develop over centuries of differing external influences.", you've dropped out of consideration that these languages were articially (last 2 centuries), and in periods, violently made "closer".
Further, you don't make the differences between the dialect (Štokavian) and the speech (Ikavian; Ikavian speech appears among the speakers of all three Croatian dialects: Štokavian, Čakavian and Kaykavian). Regarding "Eastern South Slavic", you've forgotten to add Eastern Serbian dialects (Torlakian), that are much closer to Bulgarian and Macedonian, than to the speech of Šumadija.
Calling wiki-users as "nationalist pseudo-scientific charicatures" is a personal attack to all contributors here.
"This division is policital". No, Hxseek, that merging attitude was and is political violence against natural language development.
"The Serbo-Croatian continuum has less variance than, Sicilian and ... Milanese." Really? You find locals of Vis and Niš perfectly communicating? Or Bednja and Požarevac? Kubura (talk) 13:46, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

It was not my intention to criticise individuals, but rather the whole idea. People are certainly entitled to national feelings, but passing them off as if it were some documented fact is a bit laughable. Even without the so-called 'forced assimilation' of languages, the speech would probably be very similar. In fact the whole area of linguistics has been called a farce of an academic discipline by some. Hxseek (talk) 00:48, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Favored alphabet of Muslim Bosniaks

I gather that the dividing line in Serbo-Croatian was that the Orthodox typically used Cyrillic letters, while the Roman Catholics used Roman letters. Have the Muslims typically used one predominately? If so, which? Boris B (talk) 11:26, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Muslims favour the Latin (Roman) alphabet, using it predominately. --Prevalis (talk) 20:02, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Bosnian language - spoken by ethnic Bosnians

what is with ethnic Bosnians...? —Preceding unsigned comment added by King.tvrtko (talk • contribs) 10:36, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Bosnian is speak in Spain? Come on, LOL.

Spoken in: Bosnia and Herzegovina,

Serbia,
Montenegro,
Kosovo,
Croatia,
Republic of Macedonia,
Slovenia,

and by immigrant communities in

Germany,
Sweden,
Denmark,
Austria,
Canada,
United States,
Belgium,
Switzerland,
Spain

I don't know about the situation of this "self-proclaimed" language in other countries of the list in the article, but in Spain, Bosnian is not speak. Seriously, if Bosnian is considered speak in Spain, spanish is speak in all and every of the countries in the world by the inmigrants of Spain and Hispanic America, so include spanish in the "spoken languages" section in all of the Country articles in the wikipedia, ok? And modify the entrance of the spanish language article to include all countries of the world.

I really think that it will be more intelligent for all of us not to try to "manipulate" the articles for nationalism reasons. Sorry for my poor english. (Tangopolis (talk) 21:15, 6 April 2008 (UTC))

I agree that imigrants shouldn't be counted into "speaking languages" of other countries where they setteled.Only if the immigrant population is very large and becomes recognized.--(GriffinSB) (talk) 22:04, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Latin alphabet only

Near the beginning of this article it says that the Bosnian language is nearly always written in the Latin alphabet and that Cyrillic is mainly for historical purposes. I am aware of the differences (or lack of differences) between Serbian, Croatian, Bosnian and Montenegrin but surely the language spoken in Republika Srpska is Bosnian. Everywhere one travels in the RS one sees the Cyrillic alphabet used as standard in notices, signs, newspapers and generally all public life. In the Federation the opposite is true. Of course if we're claiming that the language spoken in RS is in fact Serbian then I'll accept that the Bosnian language is nearly always written in the latin alphabet but this would just make the petty arguements on this page even more difficult.--217.201.203.131 (talk) 00:18, 31 May 2008 (UTC)