Template talk:Bordeaux-1855

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[edit] Collapse?

I have no experience with the mechanics of such templates, but is it a complex operation to make it collapsable? It is so big, it could be a nice thing. MURGH disc. 22:09, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] New template?

Not so complex. I made one, anyone for feedback? MURGH disc. 00:29, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

[Edit: #1 moved down on page]
  • Comment It is much "cleaner" and less bulky. That is certainly a plus. Though I think we should go with the simple English "First Growth", "Second growth", "Third" etc since that is how our readers will most commonly refer to them as. Right now the template goes from Premiers to the English Seconds to the French Troisièmes, etc. AgneCheese/Wine 03:02, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
I agree. Although Seconds crus is actually the going official Fr:word in sources ;^) MURGH disc. 03:06, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
Really? How weird. :p I thought for sure they would use Deuxième, at the very least to avoid confusion with the "Super Seconds" like Palmer and Kirwan. AgneCheese/Wine 03:16, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
Yes I also took that for granted until it hit me. I though at first it was a modernizing thing, but Lichine wrote the same in the 50s. MURGH disc. 03:22, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
I have noticed that second wine is called Second vin in French, but I'd never encountered Second Cru. The Oxford Companion to Wine clearly says "Second Growths (Deuxièmes Cru)" in its article on the 1855 classification, for both Médoc and Sauternes (big table on p. 176-177). However, when I checked out a few 2.Cru websites in French, preferably their "historie" section, it seems Murgh is right and OCW is wrong:
  • Use of Second Cru in French (8): Rauzan-Ségla, Léoville-Poyferré, Durfort-Vivens, Gruaud-Larose, Lascombes, Brane-Cantenac, Pichon Comtesse, Ducru-Beaucaillou,
  • Use of Deuxième Cru in French (1): Montrose
  • Not found (5): Rauzan-Gassies, Léoville Las Cases, Léoville-Barton, Pichon Baron, Cos d'Estournel
Tomas e (talk) 23:04, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Collapsible is fine with me. Some other points of view:

  • I think we could have room for both English and French, e.g. First Growths (Premier Cru). The French text is found on some labels, and some English-language texts will use French terms for things they consider expensive, exclusive and snobbish, such as >€ 100 wine.
  • Why use "Château" for the First Growths but not for other châteaux? Either use it for all of them or none.
  • Sauternes Premier Cru Superieur, i.e. Château d'Yquem, should have its own line, since it is a level of its own.
  • I'm not totally sure why the châteaux are listed in the order they are in the present template and here. Could it be 1. by alphabetical order of their appellation's name, and 2. by alphabetical order of the château name within the appellation? I think the appellation's name should be used for sorting only if it's written out. If we don't want to write them out, then perphaps alphabetical by château name (ignoring de or d') would be my suggestion. Their order in the 1855 original document would be an alternative, if that is easibly available.
  • Consider adding "(in Graves)" after Haut-Brion's name.

Tomas e (talk) 23:04, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for comments. To respond to the points
    • There is certainly space for both French and English. I think its ultimately a design issue if it can all fit without being too crammed. Considering it is the navigation template and not the article. But sure, right now there is loads of empty space on the side. But then it ought to be (Premiers Crus), yes?
    • Again, The Premiers got full Ch. for having a line at their disposal. As for the rest differing, it became like how one normally lists a bunch of chateaux together, with the freedom of not repeating the obvious. It doesn't bother me so much that the superfirsts became a little different.
    • Thats also why I was OK satisfied with the Yquem solution. Not its own line, but at least full title. The effect of the longest group title with the smallest entry makes a template look pretty poorly laid out.
    • There may be an anomaly or 2 but pretty much I have gone by the closest thing i have to a source, [1] with a PDF available. An old parchment to go by would be nice but I didn't find it. Since the old template and even the main article wasnt updated as to the current lineup of entitled estates after recent splits etc. I've gone by this. What I didn't rearrange after this source is the Premier order, Lafite-Latour-Margaux-Mouton-HB, since I wanted some feedback before uprooting things, but I'll commit all the way.

      I'll look into Graves and think about the other points as I prod some more at it. MURGH disc. 01:53, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Surely the Premier Cru order must be Lafite-Latour-Margaux-HB-Mouton, with the "1973 upstart" last? Having the "traditional order" for 1.Cru and alphabetical for the rest would be fine with me. Tomas e (talk) 14:01, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] #2

Well. This way, it's not so far from what we already have. MURGH disc. 02:28, 16 December 2007 (UTC)


[edit] #3

This is the version that most resembles how I understand Tomas e's suggestions. MURGH disc. 02:48, 16 December 2007 (UTC)


The second one is a little too bulky, not a big fan of it. I don't think we really need both French and English. I was originally just confused by the "Seconds" but in thinking about it more, I would be partial to just listing the English. In the actual article we can include more of the French but for the simple purpose of a template, English is probably our best choice. The only other "tweak" I'd suggestion would be to move the Sauternes header from the bottom to just before the Sauternes listings. As it is right now, the Bordeaux sort of just merge into the Sauternes without a clear break. But all in all, some nice work! AgneCheese/Wine 08:24, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
A little late in responding on this -- my preference is to keep the French technical terms since it is a specialist article about a French subject, and to keep the layout close to that in the French Wikipedia version, to make it easy to switch between the two languages. I also like boxes that are uncollapsed by default, but that's just me! Thanks for the tweaking --mervyn (talk) 08:59, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
Yes, I also think #2 is much too bulky, and #3 with two languages becomes too busy for me. If we must choose, this is the English WP before it is an article on French subject. I'd like nothing more to move the blue Sauternes footer to the middle, but this actually someone more expert than a novice like me needs to swing. For some reason it seems this simple move is difficult to do. I could of course easily put it in a white separating "list-stripe" between, but that would break the structure. Or.. it would be interpreted as a metaphor for sweet white wine  :) MURGH disc. 11:37, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
Layout-wise, both #2 and #3 are OK, but there would definitely need to be a Sauternes heading in the middle to avoid confusing people. Tomas e (talk) 14:01, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
Got some help from a friendly templatewiz, so the blue middle stripe is finally in the box. He taught me some other tricks too, so that it's tempting to have italics French instead. Any consensus on this or should it be English, because 2 languages becomes too crowded I think. Also the order is now as in the most official doc I've found PDF, with the exception of the illogical placing of Mouton before Haut-Brion.. MURGH disc. 23:33, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Moved down, the new #1 :

v • d • e
Bordeaux Wine Official Classification of 1855
Classed Growths of Médoc
Premiers Crus
Seconds Crus
Troisièmes Crus
Quatrièmes Crus
Cinquièmes Crus
Classed Growths of Sauternes and Barsac
Premier Cru Supérieur
Premiers Crus
Seconds Crus


I think this is fine. A certain improvement over the original. AgneCheese/Wine 00:44, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
OK. If there are no more comments for now, I'll implement this one. MURGH disc. 01:41, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
It looks good! And I notice that there are no redlinks left among the Sauternes chx. Tomas e (talk) 20:59, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

(also, this opened up for some colourpossibilities, but it may be too silly).