Talk:Borzoi

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Moved text posted here by User:148.177.161.211 to article page. Elf | Talk 20:44, 3 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Which photo to use?

An anon user switched out this photo:

previous photo

and replaced it with this one:

current photo

Although the 2nd one has a cleaner background, it's not as complete and clear (and larger original) an image of the dog. I think the first one shows the breed better. What do other people think? Elf | Talk 04:55, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

I can't see the first image, but the second one looks okay to me. RandomEcho 14:13, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

I can see both, and I agree with Elf's analysis. Either one will do while we hope for a third photo with the clarity and size of the first, and the uncluttered background of the second. I wouldn't mind seeing an example of an Art Deco representation, as well, and I'd put one up myself if I had yet mastered the intricacies of doing so. -- Lisasmall 22:42, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't like the first photo much, it's a nice dog but it isn't standing up properly so looks a bit like a rather depressed camel. The problem with putting up Art Deco is copyright of the images. I'm not game to tangle with that. Autangelist 23:55, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] More Photos for consideration

I've just uploaded 5 new images for consideration for use in this article.

Borzoi Head (var 1)

Borzoi Head (var 2)

Borzoi Coat

Borzoi standing/posture (var 1)

Borzoi standing/posture (var 2)

Please discuss or change with existing article pictures if you strongly prefer one or more of these. --Cunnington A 23:41, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Borzoi v. Borzois

I struggled to put in references and apparently did it incorrectly, more than once, and after wrangling all day, I give up. Here's what I was getting at.

Capitalization: The Times (of London UK) Online Style Guide, in their entry titled "dogs," says borzoi should not be capitalized in a sentence; but Borzoi people routinely do so, and it is capitalized throughout the Wiki article.

Plural v. Singular: The American Heritage Dictionary says the plural is borzois, which I have never, in eons of dogshows, heard used; the webmistress of Borzoi Central answered my query today: "Well....in my opinion the accepted plural is Borzoi and it seems to be the most common usage that I see," but she noted that there are some Borzoi people who fervently favor the "s" and that the debate can get "quite heated" at times. She is a professional breeder of Borzoi as well as BC's webmistress. I think it's appropriate to note both plurals here without taking sides. -- Lisasmall 22:42, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Same-Day Update: I have just received this via email:

Consistent with providing the most accurate expert info possible, versus that which can be found in a general purpose reference such as a dictionary, I'll leave note of the two plurals in the article, but will edit the article's own plurals to the simple borzoi form. -- Lisasmall 23:31, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Etymology of borzoi

It would be nice for the article to give the Russian meaning of the word borzoi. I can tell from my college Russian that it's an adjective, in the masculine singular form. Many Russian adjectives can be used as nouns, in the same way that "Christian", originally an adjective, has become a noun; it has an implied head-noun of "person". I'm wondering what borzoi means as an adjective, and what the implied noun is. It can't be "dog" because that's not masculine in Russian. ACW 14:51, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

"Borzaya" is the Russian word, which means "quick". I've also seen it translated as "swift". "Borzaya" means any of the sighthounds found in Russia, it's a generic term in the same way that "Greyhound" can be. I guess your college Russian is right, it's an adjective which they've simply used to name a certain type of dog. "Russkaya Psovaya Borzaya" is the Russian designation for the dogs we call Borzoi - the longhaired variety. In Russia they are commonly called "Psovoi". I think the "Psovaya" part has something to do with the region where longhaired borzaya originally came from. (That's my understanding of it anyway - I'm not Russian and have never been there.) I've added this into the article. Autangelist 23:56, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

"Psovaya" as opposed to other ways of writing this word is depending on gender of the word it attaches to. In this case "Russkaya Psovaya Borzaya" it's female "Russia". "Psovaya" means "longhaired", just as "Hortaya" means shorthaired. More sightdog breeds are e.g. "Stepnaya Borzaya" (from the steppe), called "Stepnoi" or "Krimskaya Borzaya" (from the Krim), called "Krimskoi". So the actual system by which Russians over the ages named their sightdogs was a series of describing terms, not actual names, which makes the use of Borzoi for the Psovaya actually a mistake made by the first importers of the breed. Hortaya 06:34, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] history

Tradition says that Saluki type sighthounds were originally brought to Russia from Byzantium in the south about the 9th and 10th centuries and again later by the Mongol invaders from the East. Although this might be true, the imported sighthound stock was crossed with different Russian spitz type hunting dogs to increase their speed and gain an ability to catch wolves. This was an important part of a hunting dog's work in the past, when wolves were more common.

So sorry, but most of this is not correct, neither was the prior version correct.

That the Saluki is the forefather of all oriental/asian sightdog breeds is quite simply a myth. This may come down heavily on some, but now that the archeological archives and research results of the former USSR are open to scientists, it has become quite clear that this primal sightdog type evolved between the lower Kazakhstan part of Altai and the afghan plains, and that the earliest actual sightdog breeds were the plains Afghans and the Taigan.

These breeds then migrated south (founding the Tazi/Saluki branch) and west (founding the Stepnaya, Krimskaya and Hortaya branches) to develop into breeds adapted to those regions. Thus there never was any need for sightdogs to be brought to the Russian plains from the South, they naturally simply migrated West from the Kazakh and Afghan plains. Mongol invaders had very little to do with the migration, which happened slowly, gradually and through normal spreading of trade (with the silk and spice trade via the Silk Road being the prime vector).

The Psovaya Borzaya was largely founded on Stepnaya, Hortaya and the Ukrainian-Polish version of old Hort (not modern Chart Polski), there were also imports of western sightdog breeds to add to the height and weight. It then was crossed with the Russian Laika (not a variety of different spitzes) specifically and singularly to add resistance against northern cold AND to add a longer and thicker coat than what the southern sightdogs are equipped with.

All of them - Tazi, Hortaya, Stepnaya, Krimskaya and Hort - were already capable of hunting and bringing down wolves. Not so long ago the excellent Hortaya stud male Blesk completed twice (!) a 3rd degree hunt trial alone (which means that the brought down a wolf without any help of other dogs, hunting all by himself). Wolf trials are a regular part of hunting diploma for all Russian sightdog breeds of the relevant type, either singly or in pairs or triplets. Thus wolf hunting already is part of the abilities of the southern Russian sightdog breeds which founded the Psovaya without any need to add it through the Laika, who also very certainly is a much slower dog than a sightdog. You can't increase the speed of a sightdog by mixing it with Spitzes.

I would have changed the text, but prefer to leave this to the original author of the Barsoi entry who did some wonderful work there, my compliments! Hortaya 18:02, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Phew, it's more than a year since I looked at the page and look what I've missed! That part of the History section was there already when I did my revisions of the article; I knew it was wrong (and my friend who has bred Borzoi for forty years simply laughed at it) but didn't have the knowledge to replace it. When I get time I'll do the update with your material. Thank you so much. Autangelist 21:37, 29 August 2007 (UTC)