Talk:Boris, Hereditary Prince of Montenegro

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Photograph from http://www.sittes.net

[edit] Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was No consensus - Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 20:45, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Boris, Hereditary Prince of Montenegro → Boris Petrović-Njegoš — Utter nonsense about a monarchy that hasn't existed since 1499 —Gene Nygaard (talk) 13:00, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.
  • Support as nominator, and note the failure of the POV-pushers creating this article even to make a redirect from his name given in the intro, Boris Petrović-Njegoš. Gene Nygaard (talk) 13:03, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
    • Maybe there should be notability issues in the mere existence of this article. Gene Nygaard (talk) 13:04, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
  • Oppose The article you cite is at least misleading, and should be cleaned up; the Montenegrin monarchy existed until 1918 - arguably 1921. (It is confusing vassalage to the Turks, which is itself dubious, with non-existence.) See Nicholas_I_of_Montenegro. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:43, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
    • Even under that scenario, it is still a nonexistent throne, and any claims of royalty are pure nonsense. Gene Nygaard (talk) 15:56, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
      • And just to make my position clear, even Boris, Pretend Prince of Montenegro or Boris the Pretender would be unacceptable. Gene Nygaard (talk) 17:00, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
      • So is the throne of France, yet we have, and should have, articles on not one, but two, pretenders to it. As here, we do not call them King of France, we call them what English sources do call them: the Count of Paris and the Duke of Anjou respectively. Tell me, what would you do with Henry, Cardinal York? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:17, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
        • I'd think a cardinal is notable, and distinguishing him that way is reasonable. What's your point? To top things off, he was a pretender to an existing throne.
        • OTOH, this article shows no reliable sources showing that 'English sources refer do call him "Boris, Hereditary Prince of Montenegro". Furthermore, their personal website wouldn't be a reliable source for what people do call them in any language. Gene Nygaard (talk) 05:06, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
  • Oppose Sounds like someone is a little too sensitive when it comes to titles of pretense, based on your comments elsewhere. Charles 19:44, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
    • Pretense to an existing throne is one story. Pretense to a nonexisting one is usually nonsense, unless you can show that other reliable sources, third-party sources reasonably think that there is a snowball's chance in hell that the monarchy will ever exist again. Gene Nygaard (talk)
      • I imagine you know little to nothing about titles and claims. It doesn't matter if anyone thinks a monarchy will ever be restored, there still are legitimate claimants to a lot of them. Charles 18:46, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
        • That doesn't mean that those claims are the proper basis for the article's name under our naming conventions. Nor does it mean that the person is notable enough to have an article in the first place, for that matter. Gene Nygaard (talk) 02:24, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
          • This is entirely possible. The subject of this article does not pretend to the Montenegrin throne; he pretends to be heir to the Montenegrin throne. Merging with his father is certainly worth considering. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:10, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
            • I'm not convinced there is any evidence that he pretends anything. Gene Nygaard (talk) 06:26, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
  • Support this move, and would probably vote for a merger. Relata refero (talk) 14:38, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion

Any additional comments:

Furthermore, according to his article, Boris's grandfather Michael in 1929 "renounced his dynasty's claim to the defunct throne of Montenegro". —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gene Nygaard (talk • contribs) 03:33, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

  • The ancestor of the Dukes of Anjou renounced his claim to the throne of France in 1714. So? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:18, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
So—we probably have a whole lot of other misnamed articles, or articles about non-notable people. No real surprise there, eh? Gene Nygaard (talk) 06:23, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
I'll stifle my laughter for this scene. Charles 06:31, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.