Talk:Bonsai

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[edit] Topics from 2003-2005

[edit] (assorted old comments)

A more recent development is the use of an old potato starting to grow roots to do the same, in a much less difficult version which requires only months of neglect instead of years of work. However, interesting potato roots are somehow less artistic than a miniature tree.

The above looks like nonsense -- "months of neglect instead of years of work" -- bad joke? -- Tarquin 17:42 Jan 23, 2003 (UTC)

Sadly, no. http://www.bonsaipotato.com/ Kistaro 17:56 Jan 23, 2003 (UTC)
Ah. A bad joke with a website, then. -- Someone else 18:02 Jan 23, 2003 (UTC)
I have seen kits for this sort of thing at bookstores like Hastings, Barnes and Noble, Borders, etc. The only reason they refer to it as "Bonsai" is because you prune the roots to a certain shape. I guess it's the bonsai community's equivalent of a poseur. Sidebar, I'm new to this, so if I mess up on here, someone let me know, I would appreciate it. Thanks.VeritasEtAequitas
Looks like a fad/joke on a par with Bonsai Kitten. Not particularly encyclopedic. -- Solipsist 11:13, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)

This is obviously complete nonsense. By the way, the pot on the main page of that website says "po-ra-to." Someone's clearly screwed up the katakana for "po-te-to." If they can't even get that right... Exploding Boy 00:52, Mar 28, 2005 (UTC)

The pot actually says "po-te-to". The kana for "re" is actually an angular, backwards J, which is not the symbol on the pot...User:STFUSSABMUD 9:13, 26 Jul 2007
It's also not really a good candidate for bonsai - there's no foliage to speak of and it's not going to survive for very long. I suppose in the right pot it might look kinda cool for a while...--Nulldevice 14:39, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

"... brought to Japan 700 years ago." ... bad style, should be 'around 1300' or smthn (clem 17:41, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC))

The pronunciation instruction ("bone zai") looks (and sounds) sort of weird to me...

[edit] Topics from 2006

[edit] Differing Philosophy

There is a tendency even here to prescribe certain methods of studying and maintaining bonsai that are not global. For example, the use of Japanese terms to describe certain shapes may work for some, but as the son of a Bonsai master, I never use such terms. I would like to suggest avoiding prescribing methods of care for bonsai as well, as in my experience such advice is foolhardy at best. I maintain an Australian nursery, so I keep having to treat trees that have been cared for, following methods prescribed for English, or Japanese climates. Phanatical 10:57, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Jujube tree

I would like some help. I am planing to buy this 6 years old jujube tree in Oregon USA and thinking of making a bonsai jujube buy trunk chopping. Question is....if I chop the trunk will it sprout again. Any help will be appreciated

[edit] mygarden.net.au

At first I thought "Bonsai care" secttion had been copied from this page: http://www.mygarden.net.au/flex/bonsai_tree_care/119/1

But looking at the history of this page, it seems to be the other way around. Some of the aditions made hre after the section was created are in that page as well. --Apoc2400 14:57, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

I contacted them and it has been confirmed that they got the material from this article. -- Kjkolb 19:25, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Better, I hope

I edited this Bonsai Care section rather heavily just now to remove jargon and keep to the point of generalities without focusing on what people disagree about and different ways of doing things. There really is no point in tossing out terms like nebari and yamadori in a paragraph on basic bonsai care. In my opinion, this topic of bonsai care would be better as a separate article. I hope it reads a bit easier, anyways.

I would like to support the proposal that the entire section on "Bonsai Care" be removed, or moved to separate pages where more appropriate (local) techniques can be discussed. If my customers were to follow the instructions on Wikipedia, their trees would be Dead. As a Chinese-heritage, neo-Australian grower, I also never use such terms as "nebari", "jin" or any of that crap.58.107.86.207 11:48, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

I disagree to a point on the jargon. In the USA and most of Europe and even in your country of Australia the words are used very often and are part of the Bonsai culture. Even calling it Bonsai is a foreign language term. I did not put any of these terms back in but if a user were to read this Encyclopedia article then talk to most any local bonsai shop they would not be ready at all for the amount of common and foreign words used and what they mean. Also Jin vs. Shari, are more descriptive than just "Deadwood". Also Nebari is a specific place that is of large importance to the stability and look of a tree. It is not just "trunk" it would be lowest portion of the trunk where the roots join and form, it is generally the thickest part of the truck. It is not a "trunk" it is also not just the "root buttress" it is the joining of the two. I may put some of the terms back in, but include a basic rundown of their meaning.Sardious 17:53, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bonsai tourism globalize request

Have removed globalize template from this section after adding a wider selection of examples. HMAccount 19:30, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Nicely done, thanks! - MPF 20:48, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rewriting the Article

I have begun work on improving the historical outreach of this article, referencing work from my upcoming book. It is my hope to "de-Jap" this article, refocusing it instead on the use of "bonsai" as a term to describe the horticultural arts throughout Asia, including Chinese/Vietnamese/Korean forms. I believe this is important, as the term "bonsai" does not necessarily mean "Japanese bonsai" in English-speaking countries - my own nursery, for example, is a "bonsai nursery" who specialises in Australian style bonsai derived from Chinese tradition.

Further, I do not believe that bonsai care information belongs in a Wikipedia article. As I and others have mentioned in the past, it is unreasonable to believe that a single set of instructions provided in an encyclopaedia with a global focus could possibly be applicable throughout the world. Again, this is from my own experience - I always use normal potting mix, and I always sit my bonsai in watertight trays because here my trees will sometimes sit in full sun at 45 degrees Celsius. For this reason, I would like a vote among contributors as to whether the bonsai care section should remain. Phanatical 20:31, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Seems a good idea to me to at least re-shape and prune it back hard. Wikipedia is not a 'how to', that sort of thing goes on Wikihow. Some information on methods would be proper, though, so not a complete throw-away. Dig out the toolkit, and see if you can make a nice shapely bonsai out of the article. - MPF 21:40, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

I do not see the need to take all Japanese references out of the article. There is a page on Penjin already. If you want to discuss and focus on the Chinese style of potted trees why not do it on that page? This is article about Bonsai not Penjin. I see no issue With including sections on other styles. On the topic of Bonsai Care section, I agree as well that it should be taken out. Most of the "care" section is just ideas on techniques for caring and training. I would like to see general techniques talked about. Would like to see these referenced to prove they are general and not for it into just one personas opinion of soil mixes or watering techniques. This way techniques will show both sides to maintain NPOV. Sardious 18:04, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

I think that the Japanese words need to stay. Whether or not a one person uses the terms or not doesn't change the fact that many people, from all over the place, DO use the words. They are part of the culture, articles, conversations, and books are full of japanese technical words. It's an article on bonsai, and if jargon is part of bonsai then the jargon should be part of the article. Who would write a car article and not talk about cylinders, or primer? Or write a plant article and not include the scientific name? Us the words or don't, but that doen't mean they aren't real.--Globalist1789 16:33, 26 November 2006 (UTC)


"de-Jap"??? WTF?! A little ethnocentric there aren't we? Keep it all.68.97.34.15 10:41, 22 December 2006 (UTC)


In China, Penzai (盆栽) means 'plotted plant' and Penjing (盆景) means 'plot scenery'. Bonsai (盆栽) is a Japanese pronounciation of the chinese word Penzai (盆栽). The word Bonsai (盆栽)has been used by the West to indicate 'plotted plant' and has been mis-understood by many people as a specific indication of Japanese culture. Almost all features of Japanese Bonsai(盆栽) can be found in Chinese Penzai (盆栽)! This article should at least point out this fact! This situation is the same for Ramen (拉麵), which is only a Japanese pronounciation of the chinese word Lamian (拉麵). --Gomeying (talk) 11:11, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Graphics on Commons

Maybe someone would like to include them here: commons:Category:Bonsai. --62.203.210.47 17:39, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Gauge not referenced in an encyclopedic manner

In the following sentence under the wiring section, gauge is used nonuniformly:

The thickness of the wire used should match the size of the branch— larger branches will require lower gauge wire. Two pieces of a lower gauged wire paired together can be used in lieu of heavier wire.

The first time it uses the word, it clearly intends a "lower gauge" wire to be wider (which is what I am used to as a diy electrician), but the second clearly intends "lower guage" to mean narrower. I do not know which is correct in this insance, so I chose not to risk incorrectly editing. Can someone clarify this and hopefully fix it? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.158.233.56 (talk • contribs) 03:32, 12 October 2006.

You are right, the second use should be 'two pieces of higher gauged wire'. But since the Wire gauge scale is somewhat counterintuitive, I'll rephrase the second use as just 'two pieces of thinner wire'. -- Solipsist 07:52, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Removed

Took out this sentence:

A stigma about bonsai is that they are "genetically dwarfed and are kept small by cruelty" (The Bonsai Site, 1997-2006). In fact, "with proper care they should outlive a normal sized tree of the same species" (The Bonsai Site, 1997-2006).

There is no scientific evidence for the latter claim at all, and claims of 'cruelty' or not to plants are rather irrelevant. - MPF 12:39, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Commercial External Links?

Who controls the protected External Links tab at the bottom? There has been a link for years to a non-commercial Bonsai Wiki http://wiki.bonsaitalk.com , which is relevant and in the spirit of wikipedia. I see that link (among others) have been pulled and in its place is what appears to be a protected external link divider with a single entry linked to a a site with banner ads. What's up? - memobug 17:29, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Agreed, remove links to purely commercial websites, but in my opinion this does not justify removing links to all non-commercial websites other than http://wiki.bonsaitalk.com

Agreed; commercial links should be removed (in general as well); however the bonsai wiki is debatable (generally, new/small wikis are a bad idea to link to). Veinor (talk to me) 18:29, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

All external links again removed with the exception of the one to Bonsaiwiki. My understanding of the 'External Links' is that it is not there purely for Bonsaiwiki but for non-commercial links to related external websites. Again, I have added an external link and again kept the Bonsaiwiki link in place, please respect this. --Harry harrington 08:46, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

All external links removed with the exception of the one to Bonsaiwiki for the third time today. In the spirit of trying to avoid a very tedious editing battle I have retained the bonsaiwiki link. For the last time.--Harry harrington 21:45, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Topics from 2007

[edit] Great Link

Someone care to post this? http://www.bonsaihunk.us/pic/nat/nat.html 75.73.191.97 00:15, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Bonsly Image

Can someone please format the image of the Pokémon Bonsly under "In Popular Culture"? The syntax seems correct to me, but there's no caption box around it, and it would look a lot better if it was fully contained within the section to which it pertains. And, if that someone wants to leave a note on my talk page telling me how to do this myself in the future, it would be appreciated. =) Candent shlimazel 19:46, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Copy Edit

I've added a copy-edit tag to this article. Parts are currently written as a how-to and could be improved. RichMac (Talk) 08:08, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Atlas Blue Cedar, 57 yrs old: A better example of upright informal style, in a better photo? Wetman 09:52, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
Atlas Blue Cedar, 57 yrs old: A better example of upright informal style, in a better photo? Wetman 09:52, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] WP China

Is this article truly one that should be in WPC? On the one hand, it does state that the word "Bonsai" covers Penjing as well in the west, and the gardening form does stem from China, but on the other hand, the article has precious little China-related content, and there is a separate Penjing article. I'd like a few opinions, so a consensus can be reached. Personally, I have no real opinion - it does seem to be a subject with very little actual China-related content, but on the other hand, the more projects an article is in, the better (unless the cooks get too many :). TomorrowTime 16:35, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

I don't think it hurts to have it be part of the China project. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 18:51, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Topics from 2008

[edit] POV Template

I put it up. There's a lot of subjective how-to advice, like "When working with the branches, consideration should be given to the style desired.", "It is bad form to let any wires cross", "Bark must never be removed in a complete ring around the trunk", "This is because they have characteristics that make them appropriate for the smaller design arrangements of bonsai." etc 219.79.114.119 (talk) 10:48, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

POV template replaced with more appropriate howto template. Beechhouse (talk) 09:04, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] What about list of species suited for bonsai?

I am surprised to find no list of plant species with comments regarding their suitability for bonsai. Am I missing something? Would anyone object if I start one? —207.179.172.216 (talk) 21:33, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Retrofit topic-year headers

21-March-2008: I have grouped older topics above using headers "Topics from 2006" (etc.) to emphasize age of topics. Older topics might still apply, but using the tactic of yearly headers to note the age helps avoid rehashing old news, without archiving any ongoing issues. Also, new topics are more likely to be added to the bottom, not top. -Wikid77 (talk) 14:16, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Rewording how-to text

21-March-2008: Wikipedia restricts content to improve quality, but how-to sections are a debatable issue. Unfortunately, perhaps 90% of reader interest in bonzai will be the amazing "how" aspect, so I suggest rewording how-to as "how-was it done" to avoid complaints. The problem is similar to warning of dangers about flat tires: swerving out of traffic, opening the trunk/hatch in traffic winds to remove jack/sparetire, loosening lug nuts first to avoid pushing off jack, then raising jack on pavement to avoid slipping (or sinking) in damp soil, etc. That flat-tire text might seem like how-to steps, but is truly a list of dangers in logical order. Similarly, the steps explaining bonzai techniques might seem to be how-to section, but the steps simply follow a logical thought progression of related techniques explaining, not teaching, the subject. The key is to describe steps in past tense (not "will produce") as to how results were achieved. -Wikid77 (talk) 14:16, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

No - Wikipedia is not a 'how to'. Trying to weasle around the intent of Wikipedia serves no one. TheRedPenOfDoom (talk) 15:20, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
If someone would be interested in finding 'the best' 'How To' version of this article, we can get it transwiki'd to WikiSource. It may have been back in January of 2008? TheRedPenOfDoom (talk) 22:23, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
I think the section is fine. From reading that, I could not start making my own bonsai. It reads more as an explination as to the process of bonsai, but not a how to guide. 63.165.163.222 (talk) 18:13, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Material to be transwiki'd

If someone knows how, they can transwiki this material to Wikitravel. It would need major re-write to be included in this article. TheRedPenOfDoom (talk) 11:30, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Bonsai tourism

A collection of bonsai at Florida's Melbourne Zoo.
A collection of bonsai at Florida's Melbourne Zoo.
John Naka's masterpiece, Goshin, is on display at the United States National Arboretum.
John Naka's masterpiece, Goshin, is on display at the United States National Arboretum.

Bonsai collections are open for public viewing in many cities around the world.

[edit] Image sizes

22-March-2008: All images in the article "Bonsai" had been set as "thumbnail" or "thumbnail|upright" to be auto-resized according to each user-preferences setting. Unfortunately, autosizing is limited to a max of 250px, and some images, such as the set of bonsai tools, were too small to match the related image caption. I have enlarged some images to show more detail for the multiple objects within each image. Graphic magnification has some psychological effects that should be noted: enlarging by just 50% can make an image seem double in size due to the sharpening of details and edges that were formerly blurred at the smaller size; and some images have a "threshold magnification" where an increase of perhaps 5% larger can sharpen blurry details. The article's images might have been kept small due to a "bonsai-tiny" mindset for displaying images. However, some people have tried to convert Wikipedia to "Cellfoneipedia" by shrinking images in thousands of articles to display better on cellphones than on full-screen PCs. However, larger images are needed to connect details listed in captions to the actual image being displayed. From a scientific viewpoint, the user-preferences setting for "auto-sizing thumbnails" should have been implemented as a factor for screen size, not a mathematical constant such as 180px or 250px, but few wiki developers or computer programmers are experts in computer graphics along with all other computer skills: the expanse of knowledge in computer technology is just too great, and expecting wiki software to be sophisticated across all features is expecting computer programmers to learn and work for decades without the typical information-overload burnout, as happened with the high divorce rate among the NASA Apollo Program families during the Moon landings. -Wikid77 (talk) 14:08, 22 March 2008

[edit] Sekijoju

Can someone find a Japanese reference where "sekijoju" is used? Neither the Japanese article or several Japanese bonsai sites I checked seem to include it. Where does it come from? I guess the kanji is 石上樹, but that only produces 3 hits in Japanese on Google with one false positive. Akmoilan (talk) 17:01, 17 May 2008 (UTC)