Talk:Bolzano

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was withdrawn. JPG-GR (talk) 05:57, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

According to the traffic stats here and here, the article for the city (Bolzano) receives about twice as much traffic as the article for the person (Bernard Bolzano) which is certainly more, but not (I think) so overwhelmingly more that the city qualifies as a primary usage for the name "Bolzano" (and the various disputes above in the archive over the proper name for the city simply underscores this fact.)

I propose that the article on the city be moved to Bolzano (city) and that Bolzano be made a redirect to Bolzano (disambiguation) (or the disambiguation page moved here.) --Sapphic (talk) 21:55, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

• Strongly oppose That's what headers are for; this one required expansion. If there are two principal articles likely to be searched for as Bolzano, we don't make everybody click twice, when we can let half of them get where they want to go immediately. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:38, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose - the redirect header is sufficient. The Italian name for the city is the primary usage in English (especially since the "Pass" is always used in that way). People looking for the person will find him without problem the was it is, whilst the city will get lost in a plethora of related usages. --Stomme (talk) 23:29, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

• Incredibly, super-strongly support with extra powerful support that beats all other kinds of opposition, in virtue of its strongness Disambiguation pages are meant to organize topics, not cut down on the number of clicks. As for primary usage, this passage from WP:D is relevant:

Primary topic

When there is a well known primary meaning for a term or phrase, much more used than any other (this may be indicated by a majority of links in existing articles or by consensus of the editors of those articles that it will be significantly more commonly searched for and read than other meanings), then that topic may be used for the title of the main article, with a disambiguation link at the top. If there's a disambiguation page, it should link back to the primary topic.

If there is extended discussion about which article truly is the primary topic, that may be a sign that there is in fact no primary topic, and that the disambiguation page should be located at the plain title with no "(disambiguation)".

As for which usage is primary in English, I'd say that's far from decided. The article on the city receives about twice the traffic as the article on the person, and has about four times the number of incoming links — but a search on google or yahoo (ignoring Wikipedia page results) turns up results for the person before the city. So Wikipedia seems to favor the city, but the web as a whole favors the person as the primary usage for the name. Since "Bolzano" isn't even agreed upon as the proper name in English (see the various past arguments in the talk archive) I don't see how it is at all a settled matter. (BTW, putting "strongly" in front of support/opposition is silly.) --Sapphic (talk) 00:08, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose Given the obvious lack of consensus for a move, and given a few more days to think about the issue and to try to think how the rest of you could be so obviously wrong yet think you're right, I've decided that you are, in fact, right. The way I think about it now that makes sense to me is that Bolzano should only be at most a redirect to Bernard Bolzano, and would never be the canonical name for the article on the person. However, Bolzano is currently the canonical name for the article on the city. So, given a conflict, the article on the city gets priority, and a hat note (already added by User:PMAnderson, thank you!). However — and here is where I think I perhaps still differ from the others in the discussion — if this were a case of redirect vs. redirect or canonical name vs. canonical name, I think we would be obliged to have Bolzano either be or redirect to the disambiguation page. This is an important point to consider, if the name of the article ever changes (again) and Bolzano is again turned into a redirect. Anyway, I thank everyone involved for helping to sort out this issue. --Sapphic (talk) 21:33, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

p.s. Is it appropriate at this time to delete the move template, or does that happen automatically after a certain number of days, or ... ?

It will happen when an admin closes the move request. (It would be perfectly OK to suggest to WP:RM that they consider closing it now.) As for Sapphic's point: It should still depend on frequency; but the frequencies here are comparable. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 01:55, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose The city is the primary usage for the name Bolzano, and the person has also a first name. Editors who want to link to the city use naturally Bolzano, and those who want to link to the person use naturally Bernard Bolzano--Supparluca 06:56, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

• Comment When I look for "bolzano", the first result is www.bolzano-bozen.it, and when looking for "bolzano city", its "Free University of Bozen-Bolzano". As I understand, the double naming was replaced by single name according to local language majority. Anyway, "bozen city" with 867.000 Google hits has more than twice as many as "bolzano city", so if the page is moved, it should be to Bozen or a double name. -- Matthead  Discuß   10:16, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Bolzano is the Italian name, Bozen is the German name, Bolzano is the English name; English wikipedia => English name.--Supparluca 11:09, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

I actually get quite different results with Google using other search criteria (not that Google is the final arbitrator). I looked only at English pages, and removed Bernard and Bernardo from both searches to eliminate, in balance, any pages about the mathemetician. I also ignored Wikipedia, to keep our own pages from influencing the numbers: For "bolzano -bozen -bernard -bernardo -wikipedia" I get 298,000 pages, and for "bozen -bolzano -bernard -bernardo -wikipedia" I get 118,000 pages. That's a bit over twice as much for the Italian name, in English. And actually, all the previous search show is that the word "city" probably occurs on more German pages than Italian, since the search wasn't limited to English. A Google search as before, but only including English still favours Bolzano (although the person probably influences the numbers somewhat): 'Bolzano city' gives 452,000 and 'Bozen city' gives 98,000. While I am more than happy to call the city Bozen myself, for the English Wikipedia Bolzano is the proper name based on common usage and naming conventions. I also maintain my previous vote to oppose based on the fact that Bernard Bolzano already has a disambiguation in his name (Bernard) and changing the article to Bolzano (city) will just mean a lot of unnecessary piping and link maintenance (no links to the person should be referring to him by last name only if the MOS is followed). And I fear that this discussion will soon no longer be about separating the city from the person, but from separating the German and the Italian sides (again). --Stomme (talk) 08:56, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

(You get Matthead's results searching for "bolzano city" and "bozen city" without quotation marks)--Supparluca 09:18, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Actually, my search is without quotation marks; I had used single quotes in my previous comment hoping to eliminate the ambiguity. The only restriction I used was the advanced search option to restrict the search to English language pages. It wouldn't make sense to use quotation marks in the search (those results are very small). --Stomme (talk) 09:38, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes you're right.--Supparluca 10:27, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.