Talk:Bologna process

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"These levels are the current model in the UK, Ireland (as well as the US) as distinct from most of Continental Europe" - this isn't quite correct; in the UK one year is standard for the majority of Masters degrees. Actually extending this to two years would effectively be the British side of the Bologna compromise. However, there is no doubt the UK system provides the fundamental model for the new framework so I will reword this slightly to reflect that. VivaEmilyDavies 21:45, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

We often hear that the UK was the model template for the Bologna accords. However,

1. Four-year degrees (as opposed to three) are now the standard for undergraduate education in engineering and natural sciences in the UK. Although the awarded degrees are referred to as "Masters" (e.g. MEng, MMath, MPhys, etc.), they are not actually true master's degree either in the American or the Bologna sense, but rather first professional degrees.
2. On the other hand, the old "true" master's degrees in the UK (MSc, MPhil, etc...) can be usually obtained with an additional one year of the studies beyond a BA (3-year bachelor's degree). Again, that is in conflict with the Bologna process. 161.24.19.82 20:03, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Contents 1 Situation in Germany 2 Estonia 3 Criticism?? 4 Poland 5 France

[edit] Situation in Germany

Quote:

...Bachelor's degrees are seen as roughly equivalent to the old four year first degree Diplom(FH) from polytechnic|college of applied sciences. Bearing in mind that the Fachhochschule level is not comparable to the UK honours degree or to the French DEA (see below) because although the fourth year of the FH is used for a research project, it is a practical project, done on-the-job. Furthermore, the FH is outside the university system. German universities are research universities and include courses in all traditonal departments through the Doktorat level, whereas the FH are teaching colleges for technical, business and applied social science subjects which have offered only one degree, the Diplom (FH)...

I doubt a person without any knowledge about the German higher education system will actually understand what this part of the article means! It seems to me the author translated the English term "university system" a little bit to literal into German! It literally means "Universitäts-System" in German, and the German word "Universität" is actually only used in the meaning of the English "research university". However, the much better translation is "Hochschul-System". (The very misleading literal translation of this term is "high school system"!) This word is more often used and it includes all German higher education institutions with the authority to grant academic degrees. (These are: Universitäten [(research) universities]; Technische Universitäten/Technische Hochschulen [technical universities]; Pädagogische Hochschulen [teacher training colleges]; Musikhochschulen/Kunsthochschulen [colleges of music/of arts]; Fachhochschulen [Polytechnics, in English often called "universities of applied sciences"!]; and Verwaltungsfachhochschulen [colleges of public administration].)

I think the old Diplom(FH) IS comparable in level to the UK honours degree or to the French DEA, but the structure of the degree course is not comparable. Is here someone, who agree...  ? Mintaru 18:11, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

The old French DEA is a much higher qualification, equivalent to a master's degree. 161.24.19.82 14:39, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

How to value the Diplom(FH) is a topic of much debate. Some value it equivalent to a bachelor's degree, others equivalent to a master's degree and some value it as something in between. As this is debatable let's stay with the facts:

"The Bachelor's degree in engineering can be a BSc or a BEng, with the BEng being awarded by Fachhochschulen/Polytechnics and the BSc by Universities and Engineering schools."

This is incomplete. You can get a BSc as well as a MSc from the University of Applied Sciences (Fachhochschule.) The number of old degree courses is declining and they are replaced by bachelor's and master's degree courses.

"because although the fourth year of the FH is used for a research project, it is a practical project, done on-the-job."

This is wrong. In most courses you will have to do a part-time internship during two semesters. You will attend lectures during this time and do tests as well. All of this has nothing to do with the research project. The research project, where you will write your thesis, is often done in cooperation with a company, but it is not done on-the-job.

"FH are teaching colleges for technical, business and applied social science subjects which have offered only one degree, the Diplom (FH)"

While it is true that the University of Applied Sciences offeres no Dr. or Ph.D. courses it is also true that a Diplom(FH) enables you for a Dr. or Ph.D. course at the university.

Ludwig Weinzierl 21:44, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Estonia

Could someone who speaks English write the section on Estonia?

I obliged.

David WC2 (talk) 14:22, 21 December 2007 (UTC)David WC2

[edit] Criticism??

The Bologna process is heavily criticised by students and universities alike in the countries affected by it (see the corresponding German article for some examples). However the English article fails to mention any criticism at all.

The article is currently a wee bit POV as it seems to focus entirely on the apparent benefits and the anglophone view. — Ashmodai ^{(talk · contribs)} 11:49, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Its a good point - indeed professional bodies and societies have also raised some concerns as to benifits beyond making the masters the gold standard for graduates (certainly this is the case in Ireland where the bachelors was previously honours only and masters was for research and specialised study and also of honours standard). A lot of concerns that its purely window dressing and keeping up with the jones'. Will look for some specific material to cite and get the ball rolling. Djegan 18:30, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

In fact, for countries where the old German system is used, the Bologna accord simply does not make any sense at all. The 5-year Diplom has always been the standard for professional qualification in Germany. Research-oriented "master's" degrees on the other hand simply did not exist. One would complete a 5-year undergraduate professional course (a Diplom course) and then, either go straight into the job market, or enter a doctoral program to get an advanced research degree. Under the Bologna accords, German universities simply renamed their main undergraduate Diplom a "master's degree" pretending the two are equivalent, notwithstanding the fact that, in reality, unlike a traditional Anglo-American "lower research degree" (e.g. a 2-year M.S with thesis in the US or a one-year research-based MPhil in the UK), the course structure remains, like before, focused on a professional rather than a research qualification (no matter what the Germans say or claim, a Diplom graduation thesis or "Diplomarbeit" is not equivalent to a master's thesis for example). 161.24.19.82 20:21, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Started section - every article needs balance and not slavish adherence. Djegan 18:15, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Right now, the criticism section is too Greece-centric, even seeming partisan in some ways.
"the Greek government (New Democracy) with the consent of PASOK"
While PASOK often has similar views with New Democracy in the debate, it did not vote for the changes, and in many cases it was against them, particularly when the situation turned violent. The writer doesn't explain what PASOK is and doesn't provide links to the party entries. I would have corrected it, but I think the line almost needs deletion all together.

"tried to implement the declaration of Bologna through massive reforms aiming at the university system"
I don't see where the declaration of Bologna was implemented in the reforms. The heavy majority of them was completely unrelated.
This article is around the 3+2 (years) system, and the law changed nothing about the current 4+2 system in Greece. I also don't see the "tried" part. The plan (in a sad way) has become a law.

"These reactions led to the failure of the constitutional change of the article 16 that prohibits the founding of private universities" The article above doesn't provide any link of Bologna and privatization, so this entry needs clarification.
"and also blocked the reform in the laws regarding the internal workings of universities"
It did not.
"In general, the Bologna process is denied"
wrong verb use
"by the majorities of the university students and teachers syndicates[verification needed]"
indeed, I think the Bologna process in Greece is, as usual, mixed in a bag with countless irrelevant things, and it is difficult to see when an educational reform actually has anything to do with the Bologna process.
Tec-goblin 21:05, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't really see this as an "Americanising" process, as the United States has nothing to do with it. You perhaps could call it an Anglicisation, but I don't think that would be appropriate either - it's just a change in systems to one resembling the Commonwealth/US system. I think the statement "The process aims to Americanize European higher education, because all programmes are divided into Anglo-Saxon "undergraduate" and "graduate" degrees, where the undergraduate degree is the "basic degree" " should be deleted and replaced with something that isn't a point of view. This sentence: "In some countries, such as Ireland,[2] the pre-Bologna structure is nearer to the United States and this is a perceived benefit. " also raises the US, which again is completely irrelevant. Tozznok 14:58, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Does anyone have a source that the economic factors, for example as described here are actually part of the Bologna process rather than another European process? What is more I've split the "Criticism" section into two parts to take into account both academic (which I don't agree with) and economic (which I do agree with) criticism. - Francis Tyers · 10:55, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Poland

This section is quite unclear: "The Polish equivalent of an Associate's degree or a Bachelor's of Arts is a licencjat. The Polish equivalent of a Bachelor's of Science degree (given by a University) is licencjat, ...". So what exactly is the licencjat now, and how can it be equivalent to both an Associate's and a Bachelor's degree? --Brindt 07:38, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] France

As far as I understood there is Master1 and Master2 it's not DEA anymore..and the page is really outdated