Talk:Bologna

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Why are you deleting references to Kappa Sigma...? This fraternal order in the United States has a lot of heritage from this city... many visit this city every year because they are themselves Kappa Sigmas.


hey? gratian and irmenius???

in original please... i could know sth but not from latin or english (sorry) Zisa

Gratian probably is Graziano, as reported in http://www3.unibo.it/avl/storia/grazian.htm (italian only)
Irnerius is called Irnerio in Italy, and he is one of the founders of the University of Bologna.
When i have little time, I'll write some articles about them. Giuseppe

Why the former mayor is in the famous people list? Giuseppe 07:41, 21 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Bolognese sauce

I added an item on Bolognese sauce, and it was removed with a comment on my talk page The problem is that this sauce is not from Bologna... If you go there, they'll look at you as you were crazy if speaking about "Bolognese sauce". Well, this may be true, but if so, the article on Bolognese sauce needs to be corrected, as it says "Bolognese sauce (ragù alla bolognese in Italian, also known by its French name sauce bolognaise) is a meat based pasta sauce originating in Bologna, Italy...The people of Bologna traditionally serve their famous ragù with freshly made tagliatelle". One of these views is wrong. I propose putting back my text, unless or until the Bolognese sauce article is changed. In effect, the text has a reference, back to the other article. Notinasnaid 11:49, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Footnote: it seems clear that it is indeed called ragù alla bolognese in Italy. It is very likely that (just as the London Times is really called the Times, in London) it will just be called ragù locally, the alla bolognese going without saying. But the derivation of the dish seems relevant; you wouldn't necessarily expect the inhabitants of Bologna to understand the English name of their native dish. Notinasnaid 12:02, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
I confirm it. In Bologna (and most part of Italy) you simply speak of ragù. And Boulogne (France) is not Bologna (Italy, called Bologne in french). --Biopresto 16:08, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I agree that the term "Bolognese sauce" needs to be included. I live in Florence, Italy, and we refer to "Bolognese", meaning meat sauce as is popular in Bologna, more than we say "Ragu", although we use that term, too. Foreverfreebird2 12:51, 1 January 2007 (UTC)foreverfreebird2

[edit] Bologna cheese and bread

One thing after visiting bologna this summer and touring multiple restaurants is the heavy milanese influence using special cheeses (i cant recall their name for the life of me) in the risottos. Possibly the most shocking thing is that the bread in this part of italy is simply terrible. Restaurants do not typically serve fresh, dark breads, but rather things that taste of a complement between elmers glue and white superfine flour. I know that might not be scholarly, but I hope real world experience counts for something.

Probably you simply went in the wrong restaurant. If you eat a risotto it is obsiously "a milanese influence" since it is a milanese dish. What special chees are you talking about? I live in Bologna and I agree that it is not easy to find a very good restaurant, or putting it in a different way it is easy for a tourist to step in the wrong place. Regarding the bread, the comment could be the same, or maybe you just expect to eat the same things your are used to. In any case I don't think it is the case to put on the article personal impressions of a tourist. Ciao (next time you come over I'll take you to a good restaurant and to a good bakery). --Biopresto 16:03, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Bologna is also called "the City of Letters"

Is it? I didn't know. In Italy not. --Biopresto 16:05, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Linking to a Category

Apparhently some particular people believe that editting to link to something else mentioned within another article is wrong. Stated clearly in the article Kappa Sigma Fraternity is the fact that Bologna, Italy is the birthplace of the Kappa Sigma Fraternity, therefore, I chose to link it to the category: Kappa Sigma Fraternity. I was told that I still feel it should be in an article, I should mention it in each pages discussion and thus, I am. Thanks a bunch Egil for correcting my "mistake" even though the article clearly applies to the category I placed it in. Richard.longstreth 21:28, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Do any of your links have any content in any way helpful to people seeking information on Bologna? Fan-1967 21:30, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
Agree with Fan-1967. Additionally Kappa Sigmas claim of a connection to Bologna, antipopes and who knows what is obviously bogus, and can in no way be substantiated. Egil 21:38, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
Links should be added only when they are absolutely relevant to the material, and would be genuinely helpful to readers of the article, not just because you can claim some tenuous relationship. Fan-1967 21:49, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
Unfortunately I lost connection when I last tried to reply, but here is the deal. Bologna is absolutely relevant to Kappa Sigma, thus being placed inthe Kappa Sigma category. Kappa Sigma, is easily argued as being important to Bologna because of the number of people that visit the city just to view the sites associated with the fraternity and spend money there. There are merchants that sell only Kappa Sigma merchandise at the base of the Torre San Petronio and Torre Degli Asinelli. Why? Because of the impact the organization has on the city. What's more is, the fraternity is clearly mentioned within the article of Bologna and as such should be allowed to be placed within a category whose purpose is to provide links to articles related to Kappa Sigma.Richard.longstreth 22:13, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
You didn't answer the question. I didn't ask if it was "relevant"? I asked if your site provides information about Bologna. That's what people come to this article to find. Fan-1967 22:14, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
My "site" isn't a "site". It is a category that provides any person interested in Kappa Sigma more information about topics related to the fraternity. So, no on providing more information about Bologna, but yes on providing more information about places and items related to the founding of Kappa Sigma.Richard.longstreth 22:18, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

It is not appropriate to put categories relating to articles that mention Bologna into the Bologna article, that would have been totally chaotic, since all these articles may have some relevance to Bologna. Please read Wikipedia:Categorization for further enligthenment. Egil 22:40, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Ok, so the fact that those interested in Bologna may be intrested in a secret organization strongly associated with the city, tells me a tag to Kappa Sigma is appropriate, right?Richard.longstreth 22:42, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
There is no such fact - you are just making things up. There is no reason to believe that any person reading about Bologna would be particularly interested in Kappa Sigma. If they wanted to know about Kappa Sigma, they would read the Kappa Sigma article instead. If they wanted to know about all articles mentioning Bologna, they would use the what-links-here feature. Egil 07:08, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
I'm not making things up. I'm tired of you not listening. Is there another moderator out there perhaps with some class? The purpose of the categories is to give people something else to look at related to the subject they are reading on. Kappa Sigma IS related to Bologna and visa versa. If you want to debate the facts and history, go ahead. If not, then logically you must agree with me that the two are at least related historically and as such a category might be appropriate.Richard.longstreth 07:42, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
I'm not a moderator, but many, many Kappa Sigmas want to know more about the city of Bologna. The fact that this article has been edited multiple times by different people in reference to Kappa Sigma is a testament to that fact. To imply that Kappa Sigma has no connection to Bologna is quite ignorant - their history is well documented in Bononia Docet (Bologna Teaches). jgladding

I'd hate to reopen a discussion that seems to have ended some time ago, but I came across this article and found the Kappa Sigma reference downright strange. I just don't see how or why this is notable enough to merit its own section in the article, especially for a city of Bologna's size. To repeat what has been said, I don't think 99% or more of people looking for information on Bologna are interested in information on Kappa Sigma. Tsk070 (talk) 03:35, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Copy-editing

Okay, a few questions. I just copy-edited this article, as I found quite a few grammatical errors. First, there were two sections labeled "transport." I changed the first to "Importance" because only the first line had anything to do with transport, and the section is really about the notable things about the city. So, unless someone can think of a better title for that section...

Also, there are many instances in this article where something is referred to as the "first" in Italy or the world (for example, the first sentence in the "Importance" section). I use "first" to mean the earliest-begun of something; however, in several cases, it seems that it is used to mean "most important." This is quite ambiguous and rather confusing. Perhaps this is a dialect issue; but for someone who speaks American English from the south-east, it is confusing. I changed a few where it seemed obvious which meaning was intended, but there are many more that I left alone because I wasn't entirely sure which meaning was true. So, if whoever wrote it that way could clarify which is true? Are things first in time or of the most importance?

Another common phrase in this article is "is considered." Considered by whom? This is bordering on weasel-words. If whoever wrote this knows who is doing the considering, please include that information. If not, it needs to be reworded in places because this phrase is quite prevalent.

One last question/comment: in the "main sights" section, in the part discussing the arcades, there is "289 m/o.l.s." What is the world does that mean? I just wanted to point out that this does not need to be abbreviated as the abbreviation is not globally recognizable.

Anyhow, I don't mean to start out with all complaints, but I wanted to bring up some things that need to be considered. Foreverfreebird2 13:03, 1 January 2007 (UTC)foreverfreebird2

I agree with you. "289 m/o.l.s." comes from the Italian abbreviation for: "meters on (above?) sea level". I have just written the extended expression, because I don't know the correct abbreviation. Can you complete it? --Broletto (talk) 17:48, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Strage di Bologna

Hi i cancelled a sentence from section "transport" in which responsibility for the strage di bologna was attributed to Brigate Rosse; I have added a sentence stating that far right extremists and P2 were accused of it (as it is widely accepted in Italy, and as it is stated in the article on Strage di Bologna). Bye ivan (ivanbcn on wikipedia Italiano)

[edit] Pronunciation

The IPA pronunciation is listed as [boˈloɲɲa], however the character ɲ does not appear on the IPA chart. I'm not familiar with the pronunciation (which is why I came here) -- should the character be ŋ as in singer and ring? Is it pronounced like "boh-lone-yah" (American accent)? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Patik (talk • contribs) 14:04, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

"gn" in Italian is pronounced like "ny": "Bo" like "Boston", "lon" like "London", "ya" like "yacht". --Wikipeder 20:54, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
Wikipeder, your pronunciation guide is wrong. Are you Italian? The correct pronounciation is "bo" like in "board", "lo" like in "lonely", "gna" is more or less "nyah"--Gspinoza (talk) 18:03, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
Well, that would be how Bologna is pronounced in (American) English. I was trying to simulate the Italian pronounciation, using words as pronounced in standard UK English. It's a short, open first "o" and definitely no diphtong ("ou") in the second syllable – don't say "lonely" with an Italian accent :) ! --Wikipeder (talk) 19:59, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
No, my pronounciation is closer as possible to Italian's. Yours is wrong: first, "Boston" is pronounced with the first "o" like Italian "ò", while "Bologna" is pronounced with "ó"; English pronounced "London" in Italian sounds "Landon", while "lo" has another "ó"; then the correct pronounciation of "yacht" in Italian sounds like "yott". According to you, in Italian Bologna is pronounced "Balanio". As soon as I get a microphone I'll record the correct pronounciation and add the file to the page. By the way, I am Italian and I live in Bologna since 10 years. --Gspinoza (talk) 15:43, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
Yes, that is exactly my point: You seem to assume an Italian accent in an English speaker. We are not getting anywhere like this, let's just stick to the international transcription: [boˈloɲa], not [bɔːˈlouɲa], no "oa", no "ou", no diphtong anywhere. --Wikipeder (talk) 07:23, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
Ok, so let's spread a wrong pronounciation instead of the right one. --Gspinoza (talk) 11:39, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
Well, your first suggestion has been [bə lō′nyə], something like "Be Loníe" with the stress on the "i", you are now suggesting [bɔːˈlouɲa] ("Boaloneya"). I don't quite see how this could be any better than the original. --Wikipeder (talk) 00:21, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
I must admit I am not familiar with phonetic alphabet: I took [bə lō′nyə] from an online italian dictionary, but it is obviously wrong. I don't see where I said "Boaloneya", that's complete nonsense. What I say is: the two "o" in "Bologna" are prononuced the same way, a closed "o" like the "o" in the English pronounciation of "lonely" or "most" or "so". "Gna" is pronounced "nya", not "neya". --Gspinoza (talk) 11:30, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Maserati

It's not that known in Italy too, but it's too important for me to underline that Maserati car company was born, grew and became important in the city of Bologna. It was subsequently moved to Modena for productive reasons. Maserati's logo is decorated with a trident... it's Nettuno's trident, taken form the Nettuno Fountain in Nettuno square. Due to these reasons, I feel myself authorized to add Maserati in "famous companies" section. Thank you. Ah, just to clear things up: Ragù is known all over Italy as a Bolognese sauce. Nevertheless it's true that it's also called Ragù alla Bognese (Bolognese Ragù). It depends :-D The Bologna massacre was attributed to far right extremists. P2 involvement wasn't proofed, nor taken in consideration during the trial. --Ilvespa (talk) 01:45, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Zappolino

I must ask something about the history section. As it is written, it seems that Modena's the cause of a not better specified decay of Bologna in the XIV century. Facts are a bit different. Bologna user tu rule Modena for a long time, due to the battle of Fossalta in the XIII century. Despite this, Modena was able to recover itself and donate the "signoria", feudal ownership of the city, to the Este family. A short time and a lot of internecine struggle later, the battle of Zappolino occured, for a vast amount of reasons (Modena was for the Emperor, Bologna for the Pope and not under the Pope; border definement complications and not least the fact that Bologna invaded the modenese land af Bazzano and Savignano, and devastated and plundered the countryside). It is a fact that Zappolino was a complete defeat (a massacre, almost) for Bologna, but no politic or historic relevant happenings came out from the battle. As a result, it was signed a peace in which Bologna gained control of Bazzano and Savignano, and the modenese were donated some gold. Bologna did not "ask" help to the Pope. It was the "warrior pope" Julius II to invade and subjugate Bologna in the early years of XVI century (don't remember tha date). This was largely because of the struggle that occured in Bologna after the "Bentivoglio" rule. Sorry if I seem pedantic... but I am pedantic. You couldn't find a Bolognese not being pedantic about the battles against Modena :-D --Ilvespa (talk) 02:18, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Importance section

I've never seen this before on a locality article. It is obvious that Bologna is important and notable and this info can easily be merged into other sections. I'm proposing deletion of this entire section. Michellecrisp (talk) 02:59, 20 May 2008 (UTC)