Talk:Bokmål

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[edit] English terminology

An edit made January 8 implies that the distinction between so-called "weak" and "strong" verb conjugation "has nothing to do with regularness [sic]". First of all, the word is "regularity", and second, the distinction has everything to do with regularity. Furthermore, even though Norwegians use the terms "weak" and "strong" in their own language to refer to regular and irregular verbs respectively, this is not the case in English. Consider your audience, people.71.71.192.231 (talk) 05:21, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

In the context of Indo-European languages, the strong/weak distinction is more or less orthogonal to the regular/irregular distinction. The defining quality of a strong verb is that it is inflected by ablaut whereas weak verbs are inflected by (dental) suffixes. Weak verbs can obviously be irregular, and most strong verbs are actually regular within their paradigm. See the articles on the Germanic weak verb and the Germanic strong verb. Pay special attention to the section on irregularities.
By the way, thanks for pointing out that regularness isn't much used. Actually I did look it up, but obviously not to much help. Plutix (talk) 09:46, 14 January 2008 (UTC)


[edit] Comparisons

It'd be useful to see some comparisons, side by side, of a few simple Bokmål & Nynorsk words. This might demonstrate some of the shared heritage and differences between these languages. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.92.184.44 (talk) 00:49, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Merged Bokmål/Riksmål/Dano-Norwegian

As you can see, I have merged the text from the Riksmål and Dano-Norwegian articles into the Bokmål article and redirected those articles here. I figured it was easier to just show how it could be done than to ask for your opinions beforehand. Now that you can see the result, your opinions are greatly appreciated.

Plutix 21:38, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

I should add that the main motivation was to avoid redundancy. The three articles told the same story with just somewhat different emphasis.

Plutix 21:43, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

I think this was an improvement. Well done!Inge 11:28, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Oslo dialect"?

The two tables use the term "Oslo dialect" as if there were one standard form of the language particular to the Oslo area, and this form differs considerably from the form(s) I use. I think it would be appropriate to use a less ambiguous term, as there is no single Oslo dialect. Rōnin 19:17, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

There also seems to be at least one mistake: "Komma" for the verb "komme" is not part of any Oslo dialect that I know. All in all I think the section pertaining to the Oslo dialect should undergo some serious revision or be removed. Rōnin 19:20, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

The middle class in Oslo speaks Standard Østnorsk, not the Oslo dialect. Standard Østnorsk is not a dialect, it is a sociolect. Elements from Standard Østnorsk is also increasingly being picked up by the general population, so one has the whole spectrum from the traditional Oslo dialect, as portrayed here, to the most conservative varieties of Standard Østnorsk associated with western Oslo. I'll see if I can make this clearer. "Komma" is correct by the way, but I could have used another example like "værra" for "være". Plutix 06:35, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't see how you're doing anything besides promoting your own definitions here. If a particular variety of the language is common in a geographical area, whether the Eastern part of Norway or Oslo, how is that variety not a "dialect"? Also, if that variety is increasingly being picked up by the general population, how is it then a "sociolect" any more? Conversely, if the "Oslo dialect" you mention is particular to members of a social class (in this case the working class), how is it a "dialect" and not a "sociolect"?
It seems to me that "sociolecting" has become a common way for speakers of one variety of the language to disqualify a competing one: Indeed, I've heard your "Oslo dialect" referred to as a "sociolect" by a teacher who speaks what you call "Standard Østnorsk", and here you are referring to that dialect as a "sociolect" in return. As a resident of Oslo, I'm not content to let either of you decide which dialect should represent the city as a whole—And if we had to choose one such dialect, I'm not at all certain that your favourite would be the one spoken by the majority of the city. Rōnin 22:29, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
Also, you haven't provided any sources for that entire section. If you're using someone else's definitions, you should at least show whose definitions it is you're using. For instance, whose opinion is it that using the term "Oslo dialect" for the dialect spoken by a large group of residents Oslo is misleading? If you wrote the section yourself without using references, you should ideally rewrite it using references that have been published. I'm taking the liberty placing some of the usual nasty tags on it in the meantime. Rōnin 22:42, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
It is correct that the traditional Oslo dialect is the lower sociolect in Oslo. But Standard Østnorsk is not a dialect in the normal sense of the word, because it is not geographically bound. It is spoken by the urban middle class all over Eastern Norway, and with some phonological and prosodic differences, it is also the higher sociolect in cities all over Norway. The word dialect can be used more broadly, and in that sense Standard Østnorsk is a dialect, but it is still not the same thing as the Oslo dialect which is by definition geographically bound to Oslo.
I nevertheless think some of your points are valid, and I'll try to incorporate them into the text and provide more references. Plutix 16:13, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
Thank you... I think that would make it a lot less controversial, as it's the use of the ambiguous term "Oslo dialect" to mean this specific variety, rather than the content itself, which leaves the section so open to misinterpretations. Rōnin 16:29, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
Ah yes, the current version leaves no room for doubt. It's very interesting, really—I have to admit I'd never heard that this is the original Oslo dialect before learning it from you. Rōnin 17:09, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
I hope you are able to substantiate these theories regarding the Oslo dialect. To state that Standard Østnorsk is the higher sociolect in all cities is questionable. The existance of and caracteristics of Standard Østnorsk and its status as a dialect or non-dialect is also questionable but to a lesser degree. One should also be careful when using qualitative labels such as higher or lower (for instance as in class) when describing the Norwegian language situation.
Also labeling some dialects as dialects and others as not dialects is a common mistake made by people from eastern Norway and a clear description of the factual situation must therefore be extra important here.
This is an area with a lot of thin ice so be careful and don't write more then you can give good references to. Happy editing:)Inge 11:09, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
It is alright to be careful, but I see no reason to obscure the social structure behind the varieties of East Norwegian. This is called sociolinguistics and is a well established social science discipline.
A sample of Gjert Kristoffersens book The Phonology of Norwegian is available in PDF-format.[1] I highly recommend reading chapter 1.4 which explains these issues quite nicely. A few quotes (fair use, I would think):
"Standard Østnorsk can be considered a sociolect that has developed as a result of tension between Danish as the official written, and in some contexts spoken, language used by the upper class before 1814, and the variety of Norwegian used by the lower social classes in the towns of Eastern Norway. Even if sources are scarce, it probably emerge more or less in the form we know today during the first half of the nineteenth century, at least as an informal speech style among the educated classes.
[...]
The variety spoken by the educated classes during the final half of the nineteenth century we may for convenience call Dano-Norwegian (DN). [...]
Dano-Norwegian is also markedly different from East Norwegian dialects with respect to realization of some morphological features. First of all, it retains the two-gender system that had developed in Danish, and thus does not distinguish feminine and masculine noun endings as is done in the surrounding Norwegian dialects. In the major class of regular verbs, where the vernacular varieties use the suffix /-a/ to mark the preterite and perfect participle and where Danish uses /-ede/ and /-ed/, DN developed a compromise form, /-et/, for both, which today is the most common form used in Bokmål, as illustrated in example (1). This ending is also used in the participle form of irregular verbs, where East Norwegian dialects have a vowel suffix. Another difference is the generalized ending /-ene/ in def. pl. forms in DN, where the dialects have /-a/ on masculine and neuter nouns, and /-ene/ on feminines only. Finally, DN does not have different infinitive endings depending on the quantity of the root syllable in Old Norse, which also is a characteristic feature of East Norwegian dialects.
The tension between these systems resulted in a situation with two main sociolects at each end of an idealized scale. [...]"
Happy reading! Plutix 15:38, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Dano-Norwegian and Bokmål

A lot of people in Norway consider the term "Dano-Norwegian" to be derogatory, so I think it should be avoided. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.167.96.196 (talk) 18:32, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Nonsense in article

In standard bokmål we use all three genders. It is only in the Bergen dialect and the most conszervative riksmål that only two genders are used. When it comes to the word "kvinne" most people would probably use "kvinnen", however the word "dama", which is more usual, is in feminine. It is therefore wrong to call this a "radical" bokmål. It is standard bokmål, used among all but the most conservative parts of the public. --Oddeivind (talk) 20:38, 21 May 2008 (UTC)