Talk:Bokhundjara incident

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[edit] Abkhazia says 2 killed are Abkhazian

"Two citizens of Abkhazia were brutally killed by Georgian soldiers." [1] so please update article --TheFEARgod (Ч) 12:41, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Renaming

Since the place of attack has been established, the article should be renamed. This is not a "border incident", but a Georgian incursion. Óðinn 20:25, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

You are right. What exactly would you suggest? Alæxis_¿question? 20:41, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Something like "Georgian attack on the Abkhaz border camp", perhaps?.. Óðinn 21:47, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Good idea. Done.Pocopocopocopoco 00:31, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

I think you will have to acheive a consensus with other users. There's no border between Abkhazia and Georgia as Abkhazia is an internationally recognized part of Georgia. I have a better idea: Destruction of Russo-Abkhaz saboteur group by the Georgian Special Forces or Prevention of Russian-Abkhaz attack on the Kodori Road by the Georgian Special Forces. Any idea? --Kober^Talk 07:18, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Actually the word 'border' is present in this version and not in Poco*4's one. Why did you revert it then? Alæxis_¿question? 07:24, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes, it is. That's why I have suggested two alternative versions in my previous post.--Kober^Talk 07:32, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Name comparison with Zar'it-Shtula incident and Banja Luka incident

I found Zar'it-Shtula incident, the incident which sparked the war in Lebanon. I used that name for usage here. See also, Banja Luka incident ... --TheFEARgod (Ч) 11:05, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

It's not quite a fair comparison. In the Zar'it-Shtula incident it wasn't quite all that clear as to who made the initial incursion into the others territory (although the first shelling was clearly the act of Hezbollah). In this incident, it is clearly an unprovoked incursion into Abkhazia by Georgian special forces. Unless of course you want to believe in conspiracy theories. Pocopocopocopoco 16:21, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Oh, the Georgians already have one? Óðinn 18:59, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Well Kober has a couple :).

Please refrain from false assumptions and accusations. First, these are not my conspiracy theories, but an official Georgian version. Second, the Abkhaz separatists have repeatedly threatened to attack Kodori and this is certainly not a conspiracy theory. The UNOMIG report explicitly says that "the FFT was given access to some Georgian MIA operational information that strongly suggests that there was movement of Abkhaz elements deep in Georgian controlled territory." Third, the UMOMIG has not yet investigated the broader context of the incident. It has just confirmed that the clash occured on the separatist controlled territory, something the Georgian side has never actually denied or confirmed. Georgian authorities just reported that the Special Forces spotted the movement of a Russo-Abkhaz saboteur group a few days before the incident, then ambushed it and opened fire.

TheFEARgod's version of the article's title is NPOV and encyclopedic unless of course you want to transform Wikipedia into a Muscovite propaganda tool.--Kober^Talk 05:00, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

The actions of the current Georgian regime are far more damaging for you country's image then any Muscovite propaganda tool Óðinn 23:15, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for taking care about my country's image, but it is not the fault of the "current Georgian regime" that the current Russian regime and its numerous followers cannot recover from the trauma delivered upon their minds by the fall of the two consecutive Russian empires within the span of 80 years. If I were you, I'd be more worried by the increasingly damaged image of your native country.--Kober^Talk 06:10, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Wtf? It wasn't the ethnic group that was targeted but citizens of certain country (with a couple of exceptions that by no means are characteristic given how many ethnic Georgians live in and are citizens of Russia).

ps. Btw I didn't really approve this step. I can imagine better answers to detaining our officers. Alæxis_¿question? 07:33, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Read the report more closely. It was the ethnic group that was targeted. Need further examples of morbid Georgianophobia? Погром в арт-галерее Марата Гельмана, Патриотичный погром, «Уважай себя и Родину – не пей грузинское вино!», "Dear parents! As of 4 October 2006, teaching of children of citizens of Georgia in the Russian Federation Ministry of Defense School No. 9 has been cancelled.", etc. --Kober^Talk 07:51, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Actually I've read the report before writing my opinion ). Georgian wine is wine made in Georgia, isn't it? It's not wine made by ethnic Georgians. Regarding the school announcement I think that amid the hysteria of those days it was good for all pupils of that school that such step was taken. And again citizens of Georgia != ethnic Georgians. Alæxis_¿question? 08:05, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

I'd better refrain from any comments. As PaC would say in such a case: Good luck with such logic!--Kober^Talk 08:10, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Meh, Russia can afford not to give a damn about how the West (and certain countries deluding themselves thinking they are a part thereof) regards it :-) Óðinn 06:58, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Hohoho... That's all you have to say? Так держать, товарищи! Вы нравитесь мне больше и больше.:)) --Kober^Talk 07:22, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

So much that you've switched to the language of the accursed imperialist oppressors? I am truly impressed :-) Anyway, I do have more to say, but this is hardly the place for such discussions, as TheFEARgod rightly pointed out. Óðinn 05:18, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Hey, all of you! You get OFF TOPIC and your discussion leanes to include soapbox an even trolling. Please stop it. --TheFEARgod (Ч) 08:11, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Please read the Wikipedia:Etiquette before the next edit. --TheFEARgod (Ч) 08:15, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, TheFEARgod. This unproductive discussion was sparked by the bad-faith accusations of "conspiracy theories" levelled by some of our openly anti-Georgian colleagues at me.--Kober^Talk 08:20, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

ohh pocopoco.. you didn't understand me. The only comparison I gave was for naming issues and not the article's content or the nature of the incident, so I'm changing the name of the header and others please avoid accusations. --TheFEARgod (Ч) 22:32, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Actually I was referring to the name. I don't believe it's a good idea to use the Zar'it-Shtula incident as an example of how to name what happened in Abkhazia last month. I do believe that the name that user:Óðinn suggested is better than the current version. And contrary to what user:Kober said, it's not POV, it simple describes what happened in the title. What happened was that there was a Georgian attack on the Abkhaz border camp so that is the title. Contrary to what Kober said, there is an Abkhaz border, there was an Abkhaz border when Abkhazia was the Abkhaz ASSR and there will continue to be an Abkhaz border even if (fat chance) Abkhazia ever accepts Georgia's proposal of ever becoming an autonomous Georgian state. Also, contrary to Kober's suggestion, I did get consensus when I made the move, there was 3 editors who were amenable to the move. I do value Kober's contribution however, he does not possess a veto on things related to Abkhazia and South Ossetia. Don't get me wrong, I don't think that any of this is a big deal, Óðinn's name is better. In terms of accusations, please note the smiley face at the end of my post. Pocopocopocopoco 23:47, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Just to add, user:Óðinn's format for the name is used on other articles in wikipedia for example Slovak invasion of Poland (1939). Pocopocopocopoco 23:55, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

as long as the reliable source UNIFIL calls it an incident, and as long it cannot be more NPOV than that, it should stay like that. --TheFEARgod (Ч) 22:49, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

We can wait until the final UNOMIG report is released. The investigation is still on-going.Óðinn 23:16, 17 October 2007 (UTC)