Talk:Bodhrán

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--165.21.155.92 (talk) 12:09, 20 February 2008 (UTC)--165.21.155.92 (talk) 12:09, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

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Bodhrán was a good article nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There are suggestions below for improving the article. Once these are addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.

Reviewed version: April 3, 2006

Contents

[edit] history

This section does not seem to make any sense. There is no evidence that it was a war drum but this is what leads people to believe ti was? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.224.61.9 (talk) 23:41, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] crowdy crawn

Could somone put a page for crowdy crawn linked from the mentioning here... I could fill it out then with some info rather than putting a mini article in this one (theres a fair few nice stories about 'crowdy crawn') , ie if you search the internet you won't actually get any relevent sites because 'crowdy crawn' is also used in dialect to mean something like 'micallanious', the reason being that people used their crowdy crawns like a drawer to store misc stuff in... etc. I don't want to stick all this on the bodhran page. cheers (NM) 131.111.8.103


modern bodhráns are usually tuneable. there are different tuning systems and the amount of tuning mechanisms is somewhere between 4-12 in a normal tuneable drum. however there are also some bodhranmaker that put even more mechanisms into their drum

famous bodhranmakers where these tunable drums can be seen are e.g christian hedwitschak (www.bodhranmaker.de) from germany ; seamus o'kane and darius bartlett - both from ireland ; norbert eckermann from austria

Pronuciation. This page says "bow-rahn", but bow can rhyme with "go" and with "how", so this is no help. I reckon "Rahn" rhymes with "darn". The ceilidh page says "Bough-Rawn" - here Bough could rhyme with any of rough, cough, though, through etc - hopeless. And "Rawn" rhymes with dawn not darn. CONFUSED! -- SGBailey 22:08, 2005 Feb 6 (UTC)

"Bough" means a large tree branch and is pronounced the same as the bow of a ship or the courteous bow to show respect. --Fire Star 19:30, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Removed "musicians" section

This had to go (although I agree with the sentiment)! Christy Moore may deserve a mention in the earlier list. The other two have not recorded, as far as I can tell SiGarb 18:53, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

  • looks like some returned the "musicians" section. Hu Gadarn 05:40, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
There has been discussion and editing of the Players section since 12/2005. David Spalding (☎ ✉ ✍) 18:19, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
I'm going to remoe the players section - it adds nothing to the article. Could you imagine the article on guitars including all the guitar players? what's the point? Thanks, Hu Gadarn (talk) 17:21, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] musicians

Some of the great irish traditional players of modern ireland include such names as christy moore Christy Moore, Conchubhair Ó Tiarnaigh, Oisín Ó Cualáin and many more, such talent shall never be forgotten.

[edit] Earlier attestation

This is from Josh Mittleman's Bodhrán website [1], specifically [2]:

"The earliest extant use of the word bodhrán (v. Dictionary of the Irish Language) comes from an Early Modern Irish (ca. 17th century) translation of a medical manual entitled Rosa Anglica (Irish Texts Society, vol.25). There the word is found glossed as "tabur (i.e. tabor), timpan (i.e. drum)". We have no idea, however, whether it referred to a particular type of drum, or if it did, what sort of drum. The tabor was a particular type of drum in certain times and places. The Irish word timpan does not describe a particular drum; it can even refer to a type of stringed instrument.) Nor do we have any particularly Irish evidence for styles of performance. Frame drums with a bodhrán-type shape appear in continental representations from the 15th century onward, but no one has produced an example showing the double-ended-stick style which defines modern bodhrán technique. [My thanks to Heather Rose Jones for this research.] "

This is at least some evidence that the word existed pre-20th century? --Fire Star 19:28, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Coming from a cornish music background... The word 'crowdy crawn' which describes essentially the same instrument as a bodhran is a dialect mutation of a cornish language name. (I don't actually know what the original words were), and as the cornish language had effectively died out by the late 1700's this would give an origin of the word somewhere before this time. However it could have been refering to some other object before that, i know that a crowdy crawn was also used as a draw and grain measure and then emptied out if anyone wanted to play. Hence the phrase is also used to mean 'misculanious'. Don't know if this is any help.will look it up when i get home ina few weeks. 131.111.8.97

[edit] GA

I didn't pass this one. Needs more references and the seciton on playing is confusing. savidan(talk) (e@) 04:00, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Although I nominated it, when I went to get references I found that the first bit is mostly copyvio:

The bodhran is an Irish frame drum ranging anywhere from 10" to 26" in diameter, with most drums measuring from 14" to 18". The sides of the drum are 3 1/2" to 8" deep. A goat skin head is tacked to one side (although today, synthetic heads, or new materials like kangaroo skin, are sometimes used). The other side is open ended for one hand to be placed against the inside of the drum head to control the pitch.


Don't jump to conclusions savidan! It's always possible that Afro-Celt is copying Wikipedia: the Wiki para read thus in the earliest version I could find (as Bodhran on 25 Feb 2002):
The Bodhran is a celtic frame drum ranging in anywhere from 10" to 26" in diameter, the most common being in the 14" to 18" range. 3 1/2" to 8" deep, a goat skin head (others such as kangaroo, and synthetics are used as well) is tacked to one side. The other side is open ended for the left hand to be placed against the inside of the drum head to control the pitch. The drum is played with a lathed piece of wood called a tipper or beater.
I'm afraid I don't know how you'd check which is the chicken and which the egg, but I think it's fairly unlikely that the original Wikipedia version was directly lifted from anywhere (it's rather garbled) and that some form of convergent evolution has brought it closer & closer to the Afro-Celt one!?! SiGarb | Talk 15:31, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] photo of Vincent Pompe van Meerdervoort

Hello, friends. – I'm restoring that image, as it's very good at illustrating how the tipper is held. I read the comments when removing the name (privacy concern), and see that Vincent restored the image, but wanted his name there, or didn't want his likeness displayed at all. I think that's fair, and the privacy concern was resolved when he restored his name by direct editing action. The photo was removed again, asserting that it's "advertising". I don't think it's advertising (as per WP:NOT for advertising, article 3., but really article 2. Self-promotion is more relevant I think) just to have his name present. Referring to Conflict of Interest: Self-Promotion, I don't think his picture or the band Harmony Glen's page on WP fail the NPOV requirements.

... Since the photographer and subject have both indicated that they don't object to the photo's use on WP, I don't think we have an issue. Let's not get into an edit war over one silly picture. --David Spalding | Talk 16:47, 14 November 2006 (UTC) (bodhran player since 1975)

[edit] Original county

One often hears about the bodhran that before the Chieftains the instrument was used primarily in only one county of Ireland. Which county was that? Badagnani 08:35, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

I seriously doubt that. Check the history. The Paddy Maloney Show did not find the drum as an obscure regional oddity and make it popular. David Spalding (☎ ✉ ✍)

[edit] Bodhrán#Players

The list of "notable players include" is getting out of hand. I'd like to limit it to, oh, 20 of the most notable, but I'm sure someone's toes will be scrunched by removing a fav. Problem is, some notable players (Ringo McDonagh, for one) don't have articles (you can create one, I hear someone saying), and some obscure players have article links, so that's not a good rule of thumb. I'm open to votes from previous editors of this page for 5 of their favoritest players to leave on the list. Consensus rule, not voting, FWIW. TIA! David Spalding (☎ ✉ ✍) 17:26, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Okay, we have got to set some restrictions on the Players section other than just "anyone who can be linked to." I suggest we list "notable players" 1) for whom the bodhran is their primary instrument (not whistle players, accordian players, bagpipe players, who happen to tote along a drum, too), 2) who are recorded or written up in third party, reliable media sources (reviews, books, essays), and 3) whoi can be mentioned as having an influence on the Irish Traditional or Celtic Music scene. The list, and the page, is not served IMHO by having as many bodhran-playing yahoos listed as we can fit on the web. Got a contention to this, PLEASE ADD YOUR VOICE HERE. David Spalding (☎ ✉ ✍) 19:47, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
Agree, should be the primary instrument except in exceptional circumstances--Beaumontproject 21:42, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
It's a shame to see it stripped back. I only just added my name and site the other week - mainly because I'm responsible for the growth of the online community relating to the Bodhrán (Bodhránii and now the Bodojo.com Forums) as well as developing the idea for reviews and other editorial content on a dedicated site (now an integral part of the Bodojo project Paul Marshall and I are now responsible for). The Bodhrán is my main instrument, as a percussionist and not a melodic instrumentalist, so it's nice to have a mention in these kinds of places for the work I've done for the community at large to date.--Cat Lake 09:54, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
Cat, I can see how you may be notable, but there are two policy/guidelines at work here. WP:NOT#IINFO (not to mention WP:FIVE) mandates that long lists are not what WP is for. Granted there could be 120 notable players that a congress of us old-timers could nominate without complaint, but we still ought not to list 120 players. WP is not an almanac. WP:LISTV also has a number of important criteria when assembling any list.

Also, please review WP:COI, WP:AUTO, and External links to avoid (conflict of interest) carefully. Regardless of your c.v. and accomplishments (which I will not confirm or deny), writing about or listing yourself is strongly discouraged. I'm presuming that your intentions were other than self-promotion, but the list loses credibility if we let players list themselves. Better to let an unbiased third party write about you on WP. The usual requirements of WP:V, WP:RS apply. David Spalding (☎ ✉ ✍) 18:08, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
It was not primarily to promote myself, not at all, but it was an attempt to ensure WP readers understand how far the instrument has come in the last 100 years and who is responsible for making it more of a mainstream instrument these days. This is currently missing from the WP page on the Bodhrán and there's no mention of it's evolution and the modern design techniques and playing styles used today.--Cat Lake 14:24, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Regarding the last point in response to Cat Lake's message, David Spalding is correct and spoke very diplomatically as well. Regarding this thread in general, while it may be of benefit to be a little more discerning as to whom is included on the list, I am thankful at least that some person didn’t bitch about my removal of supposedly notable persons who could not even be linked. House of Scandal 18:36, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
I did bitch about it to myself, but then I chilled out and reminded myself to find other things to do with myself. ;) Some eagle-eyed editors might've noticed that I incorporated some notable players into the text sections and removed one or two from the list. We could do more of that,.... David Spalding (☎ ✉ ✍)

[edit] Growing again

I see that once again anonymouse editors and registered editors are adding listings to the Players section. Be prepared to defend teh notability of the players as I or other editors remove them. Relevant policies which discourage listing yourself include WP:NOT#SOAP, WP:COI, WP:EL. David Spalding (☎ ✉ ✍) 15:51, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sean O'Riada and the Bodhran

I'm surprised Sean O'Riada isn't highlighted in this article. I was under the impression he was very influential in bringing the bodhran to some kind of prominence in ensembles, replacing the drum kit of ceilidh dance bands. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Trevek (talk • contribs) 17:35, March 12, 2007

[edit] Failed "good article" nomination

This article failed good article nomination. This is how the article, as of July 15, 2007, compares against the six good article criteria:

1. Well written?: WP:LEAD - Lead needs several paragraphs.
2. Factually accurate?: There are a LOT of unsourced statements. Here are a few, chosen at random: The bodhrán was used during the Irish rebellion of 1603, by the Irish forces, as a war drum, or battle drum - Who said it was? Peter Kennedy observed a similar instrument in Dorset and Wiltshire in the 1950s, where it was known as the "riddle drum", suggesting this instrument may have crossed over from Ireland to England, or vice versa. - Who said he did? Although most common in Ireland, the bodhrán has gained popularity throughout the Celtic music world, especially in Scotland, Cape Breton, and Newfoundland. - Who said it has?
3. Broad in coverage?: Has anything important/interesting ever happened re. this instrument? Other then its history?
4. Neutral point of view?: A good player of any style accompanies and enhances the tune, rather than uses the tune as an opportunity to show off or go through their repertoire of techniques. - Stuff like this needs to be cleaned up.
5. Article stability? Y
6. Images?: Y

When these issues are addressed, the article can be resubmitted for consideration. If you feel that this review is in error, feel free to take it to a GA review. Thank you for your work so far. — Giggy UCP 04:44, 15 July 2007 (UTC)


  • Bugger. I did some cleanup earlier this year, added as many WP:RS sources as I could, and tried to impose NPOV. The article continually gets WP:NOT#SOAP-violating Player additions, and uncited, biased anecdotes as above. I don't think this article would stay GA for very long. :( David Spalding (☎ ✉ ✍) 14:46, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Christy Moore

I'm puzzled that Christy Moore doesn't receive more (moore) attention due to him being one of the most notable players who doesn't use a tipper and who uses the instrument for solo accompaniment. (83.13.39.98 (talk) 12:54, 12 March 2008 (UTC))

[edit] image within traditional music

Is it worth considering a short section about the image the instrument has within trad music circles. The old image of a session with one fiddle player and six bodhrans spawned many jokes which are part of the bodhran culture, including the damned 'penknife' comment which every clown in the pub thinks you've never heard before.(83.13.39.98 (talk) 12:54, 12 March 2008 (UTC))