Talk:Bocce

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[edit] External link removal

To the anon who is removing the links, please explain your objection to the links here. Thanks, JERRY talk contribs 19:02, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Links which have something to sell or those which are riddled with misinformation, will be deleted. Specifically, bocce.org has plenty to sell and is full of misinformation. The biggest example is that it claims to be "the preeminent international organization for the sport of bocce." That is entirely false and misleading, like much of the site's content. The other sites in the links section already state the rules and history and are not trying to sell any products. These quality sites are also packed with other resourceful information such as photos, videos, and press releases. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.199.106.1 (talk) 04:43, 4 January 2008 (UTC) Also, about the bocce.org site, I reviewed the site further to find even more flaws and misinformation. In fact, I have a laundry list compiled of all the inaccuracies, which hopefully I won't need to divulge since it will likely further waste our time. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.199.106.1 (talk) 05:05, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

For those who refer to me as a vandal, I have added another bocce link to help enhance the section. Hopefully this will help dispel the idea that I am the vandal. The vandals are people who keep adding links with bad information and products to sell. This link is for the real preeminent international world bocce organization, the FIB. This federation organizes all the biggest bocce tournaments in the world, including the world championships. There is nothing for sale on the site as well. I thought this an ample replacement link for bocce.org since bocce.org seemed to want people to believe it is the "preeminent international organization for the sport of bocce." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.199.106.1 (talk) 05:26, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

I know nothing about bocce - however a search through Google for "Collegium Cosmicum Ad Buxeas" doesn't really have many relevant results. More critically, the FAQ at the Bocce Standards Association website, which seems to have done its research, proves that what you said is true - the Collegium Cosmicum Ad Buxeas gets only a passing mention. Graham87 05:39, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
You can sign your name on talk pages with four tildes like this: "~~~~". I apologise for not assuming good faith - it's just that on Wikipedia, every potetntially controversial action should be explained. Graham87 05:42, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Another thing ... what is the reason for removing the term "bocci" from the introduction? It might be the wrong spelling, but it seems to be commonly used. Graham87 05:58, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

It doesn't really matter that the best bocce organization, or the one that has the biggest or most-famous tournaments calls is Bocce. This may be sound reasoning for making this the primary name listed (and the actual name of the page); but the only requirement for alternate spellings and names is that they are actually used and therefore some readers may be looking for an article about that spelling/ name. I have now provided 5 references to demonstrate that the alternate spellings are actually used. Hopefully this will end the perceived need to remove this information. JERRY talk contribs 14:45, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Bocci is not the correct spelling of the game. It comes from people mispronouncing the word, bocce (which is a plural for the word boccia) meaning "balls" in Italian. Many Americans pronounce the word bocce improperly. When they attempt to spell bocce they often come up with bocci, baci, botchy etc. It is entirely incorrect and only mistakenly used in the US. Wikipedia is used to educate people with proper info. not to further instill bad habits. The word bocce is not pronounced botchy, it is properly pronounced boe-chae. Once again, the five sites you referenced for this are in no way official enough to know the proper pronunciation. I also noticed that you again used bocce.org as a reference. Is this your website or something? Why do keep trying to get bocce.org on this Wiki page? I thought sites which were set up for commerce weren't allowed. If you go to the official bocce sites of the world you will NEVER see bocce spelled as anything but bocce. Do some real research and you'll see the truth. There are plenty of US bocce websites riddled with misinformation (eg bocce.org), many of which are trying steer dollars their way. And yes it does matter that the organizations that govern the official rules and terms used for the game call it bocce. Lets try to stick with the standards set by the the organizations that govern the sport. That will help to hold the game to a higher standard and help to alleviate confusion. It is better than relying on the information of amateurs who make up their own rules, terms, and spellings, based upon the region where they live. Let's step up to the global standard. Other proper terms for the game of bocce include boules (Not to be confused with petanque- another form of boules), boule lyonnaise (in France & North Africa)), bowls (in Australia - not to be confused with lawn bowls), Bochas (in Chile & Peru), Ballinanje (in Slovenia), Bocanje (in Croatia). These are all accepted terms that refer to the sport of bocce. Once again, you will not find any official reference to the sport being referred to bocci. Those that use this term are either misinformed or set in their ways; but either way it is incorrect according to the organizations that make the rules.(eg Federation International de Boules, Federazione Italiana Bocce, and the CMSB - Confederation Mondiale des Sports de Boules.) Even the United States Bocce Federation agrees. On their site, bocce.com, they only use the term bocce as well. I'm guessing all your effort really has to do with trying to get a link to bocce.org on Wikipedia.

Again, it's not about what the "official" or "proper" pronounciation is. It is about the pronounciations that are used; be they right, wrong, or indifferent. Wikipedia is not trying to educate people on the correct anything. It is a third-party source, and attempts to collaboratively collect information from primary sources on subjects that are notable. Please do not impune my motives as trying to get links into the article. As an american, and as the son of two Floridians who won the regional bocce championships last year in Florida, I can tell you that my experience is that the word is spelled and pronounced bocci here, at least as often as it is spelled and pronounced as you state it should be so. But it is not my experience which dictates that I include this information in the article. It is because many credible sources exist which show it used as such. One example of this is that a US patent has been issued with the name bocci in it for a ball carrier for the game. The term does not need to be correct, it just needs to be used. The alternative spellings and references do belong in the article. JERRY talk contribs 19:53, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Now it is clear that you are trying to post the link for bocce.org, which is a commerce site. Is it not true that commerce sites shouldn't be posted on Wiki? Congrats on the regional victory. Maybe someday you'll venture to other parts of the world, if you haven't already, to play at a higher level of competition where the rules and terms are standardized. That's great that a group of Floridians have created their own vernacular for their version of bocce. However this should not be considered the standard or viewed as common. It may be common where you live, but not in the vast majority of the world. Do your research and stop trying to use Wiki to promote bocce.org. I have amended the entry to note that common mispronunciations include boccie, bocci, and botchy. This is actually a more accurate depiction of the word bocci. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.199.106.1 (talk) 22:06, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

If I had to guess I would say that you really want the word bocci on wiki so that you can use it as a link to bocce.org . —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.199.106.1 (talk) 22:45, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

A better guess would be to assume good faith and try to imagine a world where some people call the game a different word than your perfect word.
Read my user page. I have travelled all over the world. Your over-possessiveness on this article is unhealthy to the collaboration. You have added your own POV slant to the article, and that is wrong. The term Bocci is common in some places, whether you like it or not. A US patent has been issued... did you miss that detail? How did my providing 5 references equate to me not doing my homework? You need to let this article drift away from your likes and dislikes and move on to something else. JERRY talk contribs 22:49, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Please discontinue commentary in this section, and refer to the WP:RFC to be found at the bottom of this page, here.

[edit] Other stuff

What if balls are same langth from the Jack?

That actually brings up a good point. Scoring is outlined, but this particular case is not. Do both sides get 1 point? Do both sides get no points? It should probably be explicitly spelled out. If anyone knows, please fill in some info. --ABQCat 02:50, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
If opponents balls are equidistant from the jack, a tie/draw is called for that frame and no points are awarded.Cravenmonket 03:49, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] History of Lawns: Bocce

I read this in an article of a streetwise newspaper (located in Chicago) in Nov. 07: The predecessor of Bocce was a game in Egypt (where you roll a ball as close as you can to a target), was picked up by Greece, then was picked up by the Romans, who spread it through Europe, which was then later a favorite of the English aristocracy. But Bocce was originally a game played with balls on clay or sand, and the English had no such land, so they made close cut grass to play their game, which later became "bowling" from the french word for ball (boule I think). And from there, close cut grass for games became a thing of the rich Europeans (~1600s), and then became the modern lawn of the U.S. today. If you go to China or India or whereever, lawns as they are here are not a common thing - but are more common now than they were before because of westernization. So it's interesting that lawns really are cultural, and trace their roots back to the game Bocce. In fact, before the 1600s or so (think Feudal Europe) noone even cared about lawns, so they're actually a relatively recent thing historically in culture.Ashi Starshade (talk) 22:55, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Colors and # of colors

Question... In addition to the obvious 2 colors (4 balls per color), I see many ball sets sold with 4 colors (2 balls per color), plus the pallino. What's the intent? Is there a 4-team game played with 2 balls per team, or is it simply two colors per team, intermixed or ...? Just curious. --Ds13 23:42, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

A: DS, Theoretically, there could be a 4 team game of bocce with each person throwing two balls. In this case the 4 color set would come in handy. Either that or the normal two team game, with each team taking two colors.

Even in two color sets, however, each ball is differentiated from the others by the score line inscribed on it. In this way it is possible to keep track of which balls each team member is throwing. Typically, the 4 color sets are of lower quality and made for more informal play... in this way the 4 colors make it more 'fun'.

[edit] Curling

Q: Is this game related to curling? --24.94.189.11 08:09, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

A: I believe any similarity is tenuous. In curling, the objective is to score points by getting your stones as close as possible to a target, but there the similarity ends. In curling, the target is fixed at the other end of a playing zone, with no jack, and the path of the stones can be influenced as they travel by other team members brushing the ice; the main skills required are fine judgment of speed, curl and deflection from other stones.

It does, however, closely resemble boules, petanque, and bowls.

[edit] Order of the Bocce

Deleted the part about "The Order of the Bocce" at William and Mary, which does not in anyway appear to resemble an elite organization, and may not even exsist anymore.

[edit] Proposed merger with Boccia

Someone has proposed merging Boccia into this article - although they have not posted any justification for that proposal either here or on Talk:Boccia. I don't think a merge is justified. Boccia is a distinct sport for athletes with a disability; while it is related to Bocce, they are no more the same game than are pétanque or bowls. Eron 19:18, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

I concur with EronMain's logic and position. DO NOT MERGE. N2e 03:36, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

I think a merge of Boccia into Bocce is reasonable. What we call "Bocce" and, presumably, what the Bocce article should cover are simple variants of:

  • ball color
  • ball material
  • number of players
  • game length

Since Boccia appears to me as essentially just more of the above, with a derivative name, why not consistently cover yet another variation here? --Ds13 04:11, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Other sports variants are covered in their own articles - see Rugby union, Rugby league, and Rugby sevens, or for a more directly pertinent example, Basketball and Wheelchair basketball. They are different sports and should be covered separately. Eron 04:21, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
Sure, fair principle. But those are very large, deep articles. We have nearly a stub here with Bocce — more content, including variations, could be included at this point to strengthen it. An example to counter yours (there are many) might be Ultimate (sport), with its significantly different variants of Indoor Ultimate and Beach Ultimate included in the main article. Anyways, I'm game for whatever the majority thinks will make the strongest article(s) for both Boccia and Bocce — if that means 90%+ copy-and-paste for the basic mechanics of play, then so be it. --Ds13 05:22, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
I largely agree with Eron, though I see your point. Sports where there's unlikely to be any expansion, sure, merger would make sense - but I feel that both of these could be expanded, and that that would be a better thing to happen than running these articles together. Sure, the articles are currently small, but there's no reason to believe that will always be true in this case. Grutness...wha? 12:18, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
I also agree with Eron. Boccia is a separate sport, with its own rules and equipment. It cannot effectively be given a section within this article. I suggest things be left the way they are. -- Tuvok^Talk|Desk|Contribs  22:53, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] How is bocce played?

In my humble and diffident opinion, some explanation of the game would be nice. I see that the greatest player of all time has been designated ... so is the game still played? Does anyone know how? ➥the Epopt 22:26, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, and it was in the article before a lot of vandalism during the month of November. I just looked at the November 7th version of the article. That version had a good explanation of rules and play, and an excellent graphic. I don't have time to look at all the vandalism and figure out the best material to merge back into the current article -- but that is what needs to be done. In the mean time, you can get the rules by looking at some older version of the article. N2e 06:27, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

I've restored the deleted rules and play section - Eron Talk 14:52, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, Bocce is still played - not sure to what extent though... Just recently, at a birthday party for my brother, a mix of 10 girls and guys played games of bocce while socializing and drinking. Its a backyard game similar to horseshoe or washers. The Bocce set that my brother owns was made or rather designed/customized by Eddie Bauer. Jmcdanal 15:22, 12 September 2007 (UTC)


It's still played, and to a fairly large extent. See if you can find a set in a local big-box store: if it's there, your region probably has a bocce community in it's closet (btw, bocce sets are not cheap. A decent set will cost anywhere between $80-$200. It's worth the money, a decent set will last for generations). My family and our friends play every year at our Christmas party, and also throughout the year for the hell of it. My brother-in-law and I own sets. It wasn't a tradition, we just kind of picked it up and discovered it was a blast. My town has a "lawn bowling" association with public courts that people mostly use for bocce, though they are also used for boccina and boules, etc. I'm always seeing people playing it at the beaches around here. It's a lot of fun, easy to learn, a great get-together all-ages sport, and goes great with beer or cocktails!
As for how it's played, the rules currently in the article (which Eron kindly restored) are "official," but there are loads of regional and "house" variations. I'm afraid to even mention this in the main article because of the insane dispute about common-useage (mis)spellings. Just as an example: the most common variation around here is "Cross-country." We don't use a court. Throw the pallino anywhere: over a ditch, across a field, down a nature trail, through the parking lot, etc. Believe me, it's much more exciting than standing around a dirt square.
The number of players is only limited by the number of bocce sets we've brought along. Sometimes we'll have individual scoring (no teams). Scoring has lots of variations, too. Some groups I've played with like to add a point for "kissing the jack," making Horse style throws, or hitting a stray cat (just kidding). Durty Willy (talk) 17:20, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Photos of people playing Bocce

I saw the request for photos of people playing Bocce on the Requested Pictures page and uploaded one of my own to the Commons here. The article is short and already has a picture of bocce balls and a diagram, so if someone wants to figure out where to place it in the article, have at. If it's a good enough photo (perhaps an action shot would be preferred?) then the request on the Requested Pictures page should be taken down, too. --Xaven 01:00, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Bocha in Brazil =

I think the section is wrong since I would never say that the objective of the game is to hit another ball. The goal is throw your ball and make it land as close as possible to the little ball. Hitting other balls that might be already close is a strategy, but not the ultimate goal. 200.101.50.150 18:02, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] great free image

from the loc here: http://hdl.loc.gov/loc.pnp/cph.3g04322 140.247.240.181 23:52, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

The "bocce balls" pictured in the article are actually "boccina" balls. These are smaller and thus lighter for children to play with. A bocce set has four green and four red bocce balls. The pallino in the boccina set is actually smaller than a true pallino.

[edit] Watch the Pallino - a documentary about bocce

This documentary features a small town in rural Illinois with a real passion for bocce. Each year, Toluca, Illinois hosts the largest outdoor, off-court bocce tournament of its kind in the US. For more information, go to www.watchthepallino.com.

[edit] Bocce

My grandfather brought from Italy his set which are made of pretrified wood and are all the same color. Four of the balls have a inlayed line in them. My grandfather had a court for bocce behind his restaurant in Chicago (Pete's EL Stop Bar & Grill). He played that if one the balls kissed the small ball it was worth 3 points, but I have never heard anywhere else this rule.

My father now has this set and I tell everyone this set is my inheritance. I'm the 8th generation of sole surviving sons. My son is the 9th.

71.208.3.200 22:41, 10 July 2007 (UTC)kennyj

[edit] Vandalism

I have noticed that lots of vandalism on this page centers around re-naming the "greatest bocce player of all time". I think a solid reference about this might help. Is there a press release of the Confederation Mondiale des Sport de Boules naming Umberto Granaglia the "Player of the Twentieth Century"? ---- BAxelrod 23:01, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Scoring

I have corrected the section on scoring. Whomever had edited this to read that the closes ball recieves 3 pts, etc... is misinformed and playing under regional or informal rules. Only 1 team can score per frame. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.207.163.98 (talk) 20:51, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Layout

Would it be better to have the organization section listed before the players section and perhaps trim the verbiage a bit as a result of the increased clarity? Andrewhime (talk) 23:20, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

I've removed the players section altogether - it just discusses one specific player without saying much about who else plays the sport. Graham87 02:16, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
Someone has put the players section back without explanation. Since I don't feel strongly about whether it should be there, I've removed it below the organization section per this page. Graham87 23:12, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Should alternate names be listed in lead, should bocce.org external links be listed?

The below RFC is closed. The issue will be referred to Dispute Resolution because this process has failed.

See Talk:Bocce#External link removal for background on this dispute. Two editors disagree whether the alternate names for the sport should be included in the lead. They also disagree on whether three links to bocce.org should be included in the EL section.

  • As an editor involved in the dispute, I feel that ample sourcing was provided to demonstrate the the terms bocci and bochi are in actual use. I cited, among other things, a US patent that was awarded for a "bocci ball carrier". I also found a wealth of information on the bocce.org website that was not directly includable, due to copyright restrictions, but of probable interest to the reader. The same anon who objects to the alternate names also objects to these links, and persistently reverts the edits including either. I seek broader input from the community to see what policy and concensus says. The version of the article that I feel should be kept as a result of this discussion is this diff. JERRY talk contribs 23:05, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
For what it's worth, I'm in Australia and when I've heard the word "bocce", I've always heard it pronounced "bocci". "Bocci" seems to be a fairly common spelling in Australia. Graham87 04:26, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

As the other editor involved in the dispute, I know that the word bocci in reference to the sport/game of bocce, is a mispronunciation and only used in small circles in the US. Bocce is played all over the globe where this term is not used. Just because there are some websites and products that say "bocci" does not mean that it is correct or authentic. It is a very minute amount of people in the bocce world who mistake the name for bocci. That is why it should not be in the lead-in paragraph. The Lead-in includes six other vbaccepted names for the sport. The next paragraph goes on to explain the term bocci as well as other mispronunciations for the word. If, for example, people in my town referred to bocce as “marbles” it doesn’t mean the rest of the bocce world has to embrace it as an accepted term. Just like in the type of bocce called “open” there are different rules regionally; regionally there also is different terminology. But these terms vary from region to region and are not accepted as any kind of official standard. The official words remain constant wherever you go and globally everyone accepts bocce as the name of the game. The 6 alternate terms for bocce already outlined are officially recognized both nationally and internationally as well. It is not agreed, or even close, that bocci should be included with the original and globally accepted terms. If you go to Google and search for bocci you only see 2 references to the sport in the first TEN pages. One is from an online dictionary and the other is from the website bocce.org

The site bocce.org should not be used in the article because it is a site mainly for selling products. On its index page there are 18 links, ten of which go to pages with items for sale. The site is also full of misinformation regarding, terms, rules, court design, etc. It is obvious that this site is a fraud because on its index page it also claims to be, “the preeminent international organization for the sport of bocce.” This is their first and boldest claim and is entirely false. This organization does not oversee any official international bocce events and is misinforming the uninformed. It is not even recognized by the real international bocce federation. The CMSB and FIB are the preeminent international organizations for the sport of bocce. In all the terms they use to describe the game, they never use bocci, baci, boccie, or botchy. A site, like bocce.org, which claims to be the leading organization for the sport when in fact it is not even close, should also not be trusted as having reliable content. It is a website designed to sell bocce products by making people think it is somehow officially linked to the sport. Plus, this site hasn’t updated its news section since 199?. If bocce.org supports the term bocci, why is the site not called bocci.org? Why does not the word bocci appear once on its index page? The best part about bocce.org is its name. But the .org part is also misleading because the only thing it organizes is the money it generates. I can keep going on and on (there is a laundry list more) about this particular site but I think the info presented should more than suffice.

In my opinion, this guy Jerry keeps trying to authenticate the word bocci so that he can link it to the site bocce.org; a site full of misinformation designed to sell bocce, non-brand-name products, over the internet. The term bocci and the site bocce.org do nothing to authenticate the content of the page. There already exists links that are full a correct and standard bocce information.


The game of bocce has been around for thousands of years, as well as its name. Just because somebody puts information on the recent internet does not make it valid. The same goes for the word bocce. Just because select, relatively small groups in the US refer to the game in their own terms, e.g. bocci, doesn’t make it valid. Let’s wait a few thousand more years to see if the non-word bocci stands the test of time the word bocce has. Is anyone going to be able to just make up new words and expect the rest of the world to acknowledge them? If this is allowed, when will it end?

I commonly am mistaken for my brother, but that doesn’t change my name or who I am. People constantly mispronounce my name, but that doesn’t change the spelling. There are words that we as a society misspell and mispronounce every day, but that does not make it correct or valid. The spelling stays the same. You say potato, I say potato, but the spelling is still p-o-t-a-t-o. I say bocce, you say botchy (and spell it bocci), but the spelling is still B-O-C-C-E! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.181.195.98 (talk) 05:19, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

So should the city of Florence, Italy only be referred-to as Fiorenze on wikipedia? Florence is totally wrong... the official name is Fiorenze, and it is pronounced Fire-enza. So should we scrub the encyclopedia of all the wrong information? No... we can show contemporary useage in english language of the name Florence, and pronounciation floor - intz, so obviously we keep that there. The same is true of another Italian word, bocce. Bocci is used, cited and demonstrated to exist. It needs to stay in the lead, as a redirect to the bocce article, and not have your POV slant about a small number of idiots who use the term that way. And, no, we won't wait thousands of years to prove-out the sources. The sources exist today, and that's all we need to know. Your puffery about which organization is the preemininet one is just plain silly, the links are not added to argue preeminence... they are added for the encyclopedic content, diagrams on how to make a court, examples of play, etc. Your suggestion that I am a rogue bocce.org involved editor is outrageous.... I have 10,000+ edits, nearly 6000 to mainspace, and as an administrator here, I delete spam everyday. You make bad faith comments about me, you take way too much ownership in this article, you revert without discussion, and I do not approve. JERRY talk contribs 18:30, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

A few Canadian examples of the use of Bocci: City of Ottawa,CANADA, CANADA, CANADA, CANADA - CHILDREN's BOCCI, CANADA, Yukon College, "Bocci Island, named so because four gentlemen came here annually to play bocci ball.", CANADA, CANADA, Saskatchewan - Government Web Page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jerry (talk • contribs) 18:54, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
Some more from the US: State of Virginia Public Schools Physical Education Resources Website City of Ashtabula, Ohio webpage City of Sea-Isle New Jersey webpage Island of Malta King's Park Central School District, king's Park New York Brevard, Fl public schools City of Minneapolis, MN

Go ahead and click on those links above. They are so far fetched. Just because some misinformed person writes bocci and posts it next to a picture a someone rolling a bocce ball, does not mean it is credible. Look at the the official links in the article, they are all very official links to the sport and none of them ever mention bocci. You are grasping for straws with the links you provided. They no way match up to the informative links already in the article.

Your Florence example is not the same because it is way more common and accepted. Bocci is not common or universally accepted, but bocce is universally accepted. All those spellings for Florence are universally accepted depending on the country. Bocce is accepted and so are the 6 other words mentioned in the lead-in. But bocci should not be in the lead-in. It is only used as a misspelling/mispronunciation in a few small areas. I saw a product called "bocci bags" for sale on the web. They were not bocce balls, but rather bean bags. Perhaps bean bags are a better description for the term bocci. Again, Bocci.org should not be trusted as a credible source because the entire site is riddled with lies and misinformation. The biggest lie is that it is the preeminent international organization for the sport of bocce. Why do make such a claim on your site Jerry? You should really change that since it is a blatant lie. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.181.195.98 (talk) 20:54, 5 January 2008 (UTC) JERRY talk contribs 19:04, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

And, once again, if the term bocci is so common, why is it only mentioned twice in relation to sport/game of BOCCE in the first 100 results when you do a google search? And once again, one of those results should be discredited because it comes bocce.org, which is a site full of misinformation with its main intent to sell products. 1 out of 100 means that 1% uses the term bocci. 1% is not enough to be considered standard.You might have made many edits to Wiki and you might have won your little regional bocce championship in Florida (probably in "open" the easiest form of the game where the rules are not standardized), but I guarantee I know more about the game/sport/craft of bocce than you. I've competed internationally in 6 different countries. In exactly zero of these countries have I seen bocci. It is always and without question bocce. The only time I've seen bocci are in extremely small cliques, in America, who are misinformed and bastardizing the true word B-O-C-C-E. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.181.195.98 (talk) 21:05, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

You're comments seem bizarre to me. I have never played bocce in my life. I have no interest whatsoever in bocce.org. You can not discount the link references shown, because although they do not provide any context for including them in the article, they do demonstrate that the term bocci is in use in Canada, the United states, and Australia. You are simply wrong here. The value of the content in the websites I listed is immaterial... I'm not suggesting we should include these links in the article, or take any content from them... I am just showing you that several state and provincial goernments across all of North America use the term bocci... so it's not just a small circle of 3 dozen friends who don't know any better, it's a whole continent, and as another editor stated above, Australia also uses the term, so there's another continent. I ADMIT, I AM WRONG. JERRY talk contribs 21:49, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
My comments above were changed by the other party in this dispute; see this diff. That is why this RFC has been closed, and I requested protection of the article.


1% is not enough. If you have never played bocce in your life, then you should stand back and let people who play the game handle this. I am not wrong, I am so right. You can't count bocci as a standard term when it is only used by 1% of the people. In contrast, if you do a search for bocce on google, 98 of the first 100 results are related to the sport of bocce. Once again bocci only gets 1%. If you google search the other words accepted words for bocce, i.e. bochas, balinanje, boule lyonnaise, bowls, or boules, in the lead-in paragraph, you will get far more results for each term relating to the sport of bocce, than you do for bocci being related to the sport of bocce. 1% is not enough.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.181.195.98 (talk) 22:28, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Also Jerry, my comments probably seem bizarre to you since you have never played the game and don't know that much about it. Maybe you should play the game before you start dictating like you are. Your over-possessiveness on this article is unhealthy to the collaboration. You have added your own POV slant to the article, and that is wrong and you have never even played the game. You are just trying to get bocce.org linked to Wiki. How much money do you make on that site anyhow? I've always been curious. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.181.195.98 (talk) 22:36, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Jerry, you feel some sort of ownership on this article. Please stop vandalizing the page. People depend on Wiki for good and accurate information. On bocce.org, they define the word bocce as singular and bocci as plural. Ask any Italian speaker, and they will tell you that the word boccia is singualr and bocce is plural. So once again, bocce.org is misinforming the public and should not be considered credible. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.181.195.98 (talk) 22:45, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

The above RFC is closed. The issue will be referred to Dispute Resolution because this process has failed.

[edit] Please help. There is an editing war taking place about Bocce. Now the page is locked.

An editor named Jerry changed the bocce page to his liking, without any sort of general approval, just before he locked it. Now the site contains inaccurate information. There is also a link to a website riddled with misinformation and its primary purpose is sell products. We tried discussing this before Jerry made such a drastic move. I was the anon, but now I have an account. He has also accused me of changing his comment in the RFC room, which is not true. SOMEBODY please step in and help!!!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bocceman (talk • contribs) 01:43, 6 January 2008 (UTC) Also, I tried in vain to discuss this with Jerry with many valid points. But now he felt entitled to add to the page right before he locked it. Why didn't he lock it first and then discuss any future changes? What gives him the right to lock the page.? Read my points in the discussion. They are elaborate and thought out.

Thanks for creating an account. mediation is the next step in dispute resolution and will be much easier now that you have an account. I already have my own biases - I believe the term "bocci" should be mentioned somewhere in the intro, perhaps with a footnote stating it is incorrect (but a published reliable source would be needed to show that, not a single person's opinion. I've found a source - the FAQ of the Bocce Standards Association, but I don't know how to directly link it. Graham87 02:08, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
For the record, I provided a diff that shows conclusively that you DID change my comments. This is what ended our discussion. And I did not lock (protect) the page. I requesed that it be done by others at WP:RFPP. Although as a sysop I have the rights to protect pages, it would not be proper for me to do so under conditions of me being involved in a content dispute. To see who protected the page check the logs here. JERRY talk contribs 02:54, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Graham, I did not delete the term bocci but spoke more about it in the second paragraph; which has been deleted by Jerry. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.181.195.98 (talk) 05:03, 6 January 2008 (UTC) and I did NOT change Jerry's comments. That is false! I don't appreciate that. Yes it appears to have been changed, but not by me. I wouldn't do that and I made many detailed comments supporting my views on this matter. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.181.195.98 (talk) 05:09, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

The term "bocci" certainly isn't used by a "relatively few US bocce circles", as Jerry and I have shown. Maybe "by the general public" would be more accurate? reliable sources should be cited - they don't have to be online as long as someone could reasonably find the book, newspaper, etc. Graham87 05:29, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] From my email/ talkpage

In a message dated 1/5/2008 9:17:53 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, p_censored_y@yahoo.com writes:

“ After reviewing the article it is clear that your post was changed, but it was not by me, the anon. It looks like it was done by a different anon. ”
One of the benefits of being logged-in is that such an error can't be made. It does not seem plausible what you are saying, however, as your IP address was the same as that used in the comment left before and after the change. Unless you were in some situation where you are using a proxy server, such as at a school or hotel, and somebody near you thought it would be funny to jump in and make the change, but I think you'd have to admit that this is quite a stretch of the imagination to believe.JERRY talk contribs 19:16, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

In a message dated 1/6/2008 2:13:49 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, p_censored_y@yahoo.com writes:
“ I didn't even realize that it had been changed until you mentioned it. Then I went and looked and sure enough it had been changed. I was doing my editing around a group of friends who thought this whole thing was comical. Today, I went back and asked a few of them what they could have done, and sure enough they admitted to making the change, from a different computer on the same wireless network, when I left the room for a while. Their little joke is not so funny and I have scolded them about it. So I apologize on their behalf; because they surely won't apologize as they think it is all very funny. I wouldn't do that, its not my style. ”
Fair enough. While we are communicating somewhat amicably, would you consider working with me to get the Bocce article to a state that we could both live with? For a start I don't mind if any and all references to the bocce.org site are not in the article. However, I feel rather disinclined to yield on the point of the alternate names for the sport, as they are in quite widespread use. Perhaps we could work on a version in an offline location such as Bocce/temp, and see what we can co-create before putting it in the article? Let me know if this sounds agreeable to you.JERRY talk contribs 01:21, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
In a message dated 1/5/2008 9:08:33 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, p_censored_y@yahoo.com writes:
“ Jerry, First and foremost, I'm not emailing you here to harass you. I am the anon, now user Bocceman. You seem to be more adept at Wiki than me so what do you say we take this to arbitration? Also why lock the page right after you changed it? Initially you are the one who made the controversial change. We should revert the article to the way it was before the controversy started and then lock it for arbitration. Essentially you're doing what you accuse me of; slanting the page to my own view. We disagree, but I made some valid points that others might agree with in arbitration. What do you say? - _Name_Censored_ ”
Since I received this message out of chronological order (my spam filter got it) I assume that I don't need to respond, as I have already replied to address your concerns. JERRY talk contribs 01:09, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

In a message dated 1/10/2008 1:47:41 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, p_censored_y@yahoo.com writes:

“ Jerry, The idea of collaborating on a bocce article is a good one. I know much about bocce; and you seem to know a lot about writing and editing wiki articles. I just need some time to wrap my head around the idea. I'm really busy with life (like everybody), so we would have to take our time. But I imagine this is a lengthy process anyway. The sport is old and the accurate histories and such are often written in French and Italian. ”
Great! I look forward to collaborating with you! I am glad we have been able to turn around a conflict into a mutually beneficial outcome without the drama of an official dispute resolution process. Thanks, JERRY talk contribs 22:22, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
In a message dated 1/10/2008 8:10:17 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, p_censored_y@yahoo.com writes:
“ Ditto! ”