Talk:Blue Star Wicca

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[edit] Spelling of Symbol

I have changed "septagram" to "septegram" because the word comes from the Latin "septem." Thus, I believe the correct spelling is indeed "septegram." Septegram 06:38, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] 2nd and 3rd initiation vs elevation?

Initiation in various groups, usually only happens once. You are either an initiate, or not. I am thinking the should be changed to elevation, but i'm not sure that I have any verifiable sources for it. But, an analogous situation is that of Freemasonry, where on is Initiated as an Apprentice, Passed to Fellowcraft, and Raised a Master Mason.--Vidkun 22:07, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Tidied that up. It took a couple of tries, as I was initially going for esthetics over accuracy. That'll teach me...
Septegram 18:56, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ordination?

One enters the clergy at (first degree) initiation, but ordination is conveyed thru a distinct ritual, generally after third degree. Jeneralist 02:51, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

And here is where we are going to need citation, because in the general encyclopedia reading world, become clergy or a priest is considered ordination. Additionally, given the issues of being a religion of the priesthood (ie, no laity exists) is clergy the proper term to use?--Vidkun 12:25, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
We are all "priestesses" and "priests" in that there's no requirement for us to have someone to mediate between us and the Gods. Everyone is able to have direct communion with the Divine. However, to be an Initiate means that one has taken certain specific vows, made certain specific commitments, and (theoretically, at least) reached a certain level of skill and understanding. In that sense, those who have not been Initiated are "laity." Really, the terminology is not suitable for Wicca in general and B* in particular.
Unfortunately, we use the term "Ordination" in the sense that one who has been through the rite of Ordination is able to pass on the Tradition in its entirety. What we probably need to do here is define the term "Ordination" as it applies in this context. You're right, Vidkun, we should probably have a citation, but I don't know of one online or in any book.
Septegram 14:52, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
Again, why the terms just don't work here: Dedicants and Neophytes aren't laity, nor are they Initiates . . . but they sometimes can be officiants, both on an ad hoc basis, and in a pro tempore basis, in that they may serve (for a specific incident) as Hm or Sm, and may serve in either of those roles for a specific period of time. Additionally, in "outer court" workings where non-Initiates may be present, there may be occasional situations where they serve as MAIN officiants as part of their training. I agree, that for this article, we need to define the terms ordination/clergy, and possibly try to find something citeable on a generic BTW source discussing the concept of a religion of the priesthood without laity.--Vidkun 15:49, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
"I agree, that for this article, we need to define the terms ordination/clergy, and possibly try to find something citeable on a generic BTW source discussing the concept of a religion of the priesthood without laity"
Heh. Good luck. Maybe I should just write something and let you cite it {grin}
Septegram 15:55, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
All of which is why I re-phrased the text for first degree to remove the word. Maybe we could say 1st is ordination to clergy, and there is a distinct ritual, called ordination, confirming that the recipient is able to pass on the Tradition in its entirety. Sea Star's web page actually spells this out pretty well: http://www.sea-star.org/aboutbluestar.htm Jeneralist 16:53, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] recent edit and BLP issues

There are a number of non locked pages out there, on the history of the tradition, that list names in full. I'm not saying that justifies putting it in here, just saying it IS out there. H2G2, and witchvox are two sites listing it in full.--Vidkun 19:00, 1 March 2007 (UTC)


I want to revisit the topic of the founder's name. I originally added it based on the information here. My edit was subsequently reverted because "no reliable source for this provided, possible WP:BLP concerns". A note from Septegram on my talk page said

"I'm not sure how Franque Dufner (I'm told that's how he spells his name, but have only met him once and the spelling of his name didn't come up in conversation) feels about his name being on Wikipedia. Do we need to have it in full?"

I have a few questions I was hoping someone could clear up for me:

1) I agree I did not cite a source for the name inline with my addition but it *is* being cited for the article already. Should I link to the same citation again?

2) What BLP issue would the simple printing of a full name, unaccompanied by any contentious remarks, be running into?

I am not trying to cause a problem, and I hope this is not taken that way. I am simply curious with spare time on my hands. GLKeeney 21:27, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

I added the name again. This is an encyclopedia and it belongs there. If you wish to discuss it, please do so here. GLKeeney 14:32, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Removed Text

Back in December, I believe, someone anonymously added the following text to this article:

Many Third Degree Blue Star Witches reject the name change from Witchcraft to Wicca and refuse to call themselves anything but Blue Star Witches. These Witches go back to the time when Frank Duffner and Tzipora Katz ran the Blue Star Tradition and continue to hold to the original teachings of this tradition. They are centered around Keepers of the Rede Coven in upstate New York.

I did some checking, and the "Keepers of the Rede" coven seem to be unknown among B* people. Furthermore, the notion of "many" Third Degrees objecting to the use of the term "Wicca" was definitively rejected by Kenny Klein, who said that B* has always been Wiccan.

I just wanted to put this in the Talk page in case this character comes back and reinserts the assertions. If that happens, I didn't want anyone having any doubts about whether they could legitimately yank it again.

*Septegram*Talk*Contributions* 03:58, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

I'll never have any doubts about it, because there was ZERO sourcing, and, as such, it will always be deleted by me.--Vidkun (talk) 13:53, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Wholesale Link Removal

User Iwilleditu (talk)|(contributions) went through and did a wholesale deletion of "redlinks." The preferred approach to such links is to write the article to which they link. If you don't want to do that, simple courtesy calls for discussion on the Talk page before such a sweeping string of deletions.

I have restored the links, pending such a discussion.

*Septegram*Talk*Contributions* 07:37, 1 April 2008 (UTC)