Talk:Blue-eyed soul

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I love The Who's earlier Mod output much more than their '70s albums, but do they really qualify as Blue-eyed soul? I think the "Mod" designation implies a distinctly harder, more guitar-oriented interpretation of American R&B than Blue-eyed soul? The closest songs I can think of are "The Good's Gone", "La-La-La Lies", "I Can't Explain", "Out in the Street", and "Much Too Much". I guess you could call some or all of those blue-eyed soul, and the two James Brown covers on the first album, too...but still? I'm not going to take them off unilaterally. Maybe we should make a link to "Mod (music)" and explain the difference?

Contents

[edit] Opening paragraph

"Blue-eyed soul is soul music as performed by white people and usually intended for white audiences."

I do not think the artists listed would share this definition of a made up genre of music. R&B is "R&B", soul is "soul". If that were the case they would be selling albums in "white only" record stores. I (an African American) grew up from the cradle listening to the likes of Hall & Oates and Tina Marie, was I surprised when I found out they were white? Yes. Did I fling their albums out of the window? No. Good music is good music.

>>>>reply. I do not believe it should say "intended" for white audiences, but rather "popular by predominately" white audiences. I don't think any artist listed in the article was/is aiming to target any racial demographic, but rather a social or cultural demographic which can include people similar in persona but diverse in racial origin. Not to say that everyone to listens to this music is the same, but only that the majority of those that listen any sort of music certainly share similar cultural/fashion/personality traits. No music genre is comprised of a completely random mixture of listeners. To deny this is silly.

[edit] A lot of this article is bunk

I will try to rewrite this.

The rewrite is much worse.

The articles should be merged. Parts of the first and second are good, but the list of soul artists in the article is incredulous

I added my own stub version of the article.

Britney Spears, blue eyed soul?


OK, I tried to reduce thiese "articles" into something useful. Please tell me what you think. I'm young, so I'm not familiar with a lot of 60s music, but I LOVE Minnie Riperton and Teena Marie. Antares33712 03:11, 1 January 2006 (UTC) PS: The article is signed under the IP address ( 216.141.226.190) and not my name.

[edit] Horrible...

All you guys got a point. This article is HORRIBLE. First mentioning **90s** singers like Miss Aguilera, then (!) headlining "Modern day blue eyed soul", but referring to artists mostly active in the **80s** like ex-Doobie Brothers Michael McDonald ("I Keep Forgettin'"-1982, "Sweet Freedom"-1986 ...). That's really beyond any quality standards (in negative sense). -andy 80.129.110.56 01:48, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree the article needs reorganizing and edit by someone more knowledgable, but I don't think its that horrendous. The modern part discusses the last 20 years or so. IT should have been with the other two history parts. It says the changes to the music since beginning to end. I mean, folks, anyone can edit. Antares said he/she was young, so quit complaining and fix what you don't like. no, its not great, but it was an attempt in the right direction. Stacie 205.188.116.13 22:08, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
Also, Miss A has a good deal of respect in the R&B world one, and two, Michael McDonald has kept creating soul music past those two hits. His last CD was in 2003 and he is a current artist with Motown. So how is he not relevant currently Stacie?

[edit] Notices for clean-up,facts, etc...

I agree I would like to see the article cleaned up, but is everything still disputed? Anything people would like to see added? If nobody says anything in a week, I'm going to replace the notices with more appropriate ones for the situation (it still needs lots of copyediting and more detail and cleanup). Antares33712 16:33, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Britney Spears

The Britney Spears subsection should be entirely removed. The information was infactual (partially fixed just now), and is incredibly sparse and unbased in anything I have ever heard. It was probably just written by a fangirl who wanted to make sure her idol was mentioned wherever Aguilera also was. JesseRafe 03:52, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Where's Dusty gone?

This article makes absolutely no mention of Dusty Springfield, a British singer who is "regarded by many as one of the finest soul singers of all time, and it is notable that she was held in high esteem by the many black American singers (such as Martha Reeves) whom she emulated and idolised." She is a definite rival to Teena Marie.

And what about teen soul sensation Joss Stone?

I'm less familiar with Ms. Stone, but I added Dusty to my rewrite. She was one of the original personifications of the term.
Mitchberg 16:53, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
i removed britney spears she cant sing .Curefreak 09:02, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
Slight disagreement on her vocal abilities, but thank you (and thank you to whomever for removing New Kids On The Block) as they don't belong Antares33712 15:34, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Here's the deal, I think

There's a reason this article is such a hash; it's really trying to be four articles.

"Blue Eyed Soul" fits three or four different subgenres, actually:

   * "White Soul", a specific style/genre from the sixties and seventies that included Eric Burdon and the Box Tops
   * White people doing "soul" music - from the sublime (Van Morrison, Dusty Springfield (I agree, she MUST be in this piece), the flaming ember) to the ridiculous (Michael Bolton) to, yes, Joss Stone.
   * R and B singers who happen to be white - from Teena Marie to Britney Spears and Christina Aguilera.
   * British "White soul" of the '80's - from Allison Moyet to Rick Astley to, yes, Boy George.

Any term that includes Alex Chilton AND Eric Burdon AND Boy George is basically meaningless.

If it's OK with all of you, I might rewrite some stuff here. Mitchberg 09:37, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wholesale reorganization

I reorganized the whole piece, added a ton of stuff, and tried to give some historical context as well as show the broader range of what "blue eyed soul" is.

The "History" section is still hopeless, and I hve a ton of stuff to put in, but it's 4AM, and I need to get to bed. I'll rewrite more later.

Mitchberg 10:26, 25 February 2006 (UTC)


I love it Mitchberg. Keep it coming. I'm but 28, so I know little about music before the 70s. Please, keep it coming Antares33712 23:07, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

I disagree that Joss Stone is a white person "doing" soul music. If anything at this point, she actually seems more like a true R&B singer than Xtina herself, who has drifted into rock, hip-hop and other genres.

My undertanding of the term"blue eyed soul" was first used to descirbed the Righteous Brothers who dont even warrent a mention in this article.I would include Hall & Oats also

Thanks, Antares!
And anonymous - that's the point. "White Soul" and "Blue Eyed Soul" were about genuine soul singers (or singers with soul) who happened to be white.
The Righteous Bros and Van Morrison were among the first to draw the moniker. Hall and Oates were great examples. Feel free to add them (if you beat me to it).
Mitchberg 02:55, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
In the process, we lost some artists (Spencer Davis Group) and added some more debatable ones. I agree that the Human League has been, in some way, influenced by soul music, but the same thing could be said about The Beatles - Macca is a fan of Motown records - David Bowie and many others (think about Peter Gabriel's "Sledgehammer"). I begin to wonder whether blue-eyed soul has a real meaning, for nearly every white post WW2 musician has been influenced in some way by soul music. Well, except Skrewdriver, of course. Mrbluesky 22:30, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
First - I don't believe I ever tosses Spencer Davis. I'll put them back in!
Second - You are correct, this topic is incredibly broad. A line I thought about throwing into the article (but for its non-encyclopedicness): Blue Eyed Soul is like the Supreme Court's definition of pornography; I can't define it, but I know it when I see it.
Human League was based on Pete Townsend's statements about the group, btw.
Not sure what to do about it. Mitchberg 00:39, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
Haha, you get my point - the proverbial greased pig, indeed. I suggest that we could reduce your four categories to maybe two:
  • musicians who clearly learn from actual soul music and took some inspiration from it : Dusty Springfield, the Righteous Brothers... even Culture Club . We should add the "White Soul" artists, too.
  • musicians whose style was influenced by modern R&B, New Jack, some hip-hop - offsprings of soul music -but by no means by soul music stricto sensu . While hearing the Aguileras or the Clarksons, I can't think of Aretha, BUT it does remind me of Boys II Men, for instance. So these nice, artfully rendered pieces of work cannot be classified as blue eyed soul music. Mrbluesky 01:27, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
I have to say, why not? Boys II Men would be considered a soul group. Ashanti, Beyonce, Chris Brown and the like are considerd soul artists, or at least soul/pop, right? So Eminem, Justin Timberlake and others fit. Just my two cents Antares33712 00:14, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
Maybe, but aren't Boys II Men closer to R & B than to bona fide soul music ? Once again, sorry if I'm too staunch. Mrbluesky 13:44, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
Granted R&B has been diluted (thanks pop and hip-hop), but in the context of "black music" it still fits. I am using a looser more inclusive definition of soul music I guess. Keep in mind that Teena Marie, Whitney Houston, and Minnie Riperton and Mary J. Blige are all considered soul singers :-) Antares33712 15:13, 18 April 2006 (UTC)


the definition of soul music used for this article is overbroad. Eminem should not be included in this article. he is a rapper. he has nothing to do with soul music. soul music is a subset of rhythm and blues music, which is itself a subset of african-american music. r&b artists and rappers should not be included here. teena marie is soul, her music is not r&b. joss stone is soul. jon b. is r&b. it's a shame that people have come here to add any white person who sings outside the mold of pop music. new kids on the block do not belong alongside marvin gaye, or even teena for that matter. their "black-eyed soul" equivalent would be b2k; who, themselves, are not soul music, but r&b. unless given a rather compelling reason not to, i will reform this page to reflect accurately which white artists have successfully made soul music. (ie, i will delete new kids on block, jon. b. and others) tim 21:22, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
Blue eyed soul is more than just technically soul music. IT is about white people singing/performing "black music" genres. I don't care about New Kids/that is pop like Britney, but Jon B. is a noted songwriter (who has been many ballads for traditional black R&B artists. He has the "ghetto pass" sort to speak. To remove him in my opinion would be a travesty, since the bulk of his music is popular only with true R&B enthusiasts (unlike say Justin Timberlake, who came out with an "R&B" (note the quotes) album crafted by outside producers. Eminem only fits under the context of a white person doing black-genred music.Antares33712 21:32, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
This article has turned into a real train wreck.
The problem is, we really don't have a good working definition, or even multiple definitions, of "blue eyed soul"; so many types of music count, from rock and roll done with lots of soul overtones (early Springsteen, the Box Tops, the Flaming Ember, The Rascals, Spencer Davis - the stuff I wrote about in the White Soul article) to white people doing straight-up soul, funk and R'nB right off of "Soul Train", all the way to white people doing pop music with R'nB influences (most of your boy bands), to Brits in the '80s and '90s who basically aped/paid homage to Motown and Stax (everyone from Allison Moyet to Rick Astley).
I think we need to do a couple of things: come up with a working definition, and then split this piece up into multiple articles, or at least section the thing out accordingly. This article is turning into everything from soup to nuts.
Mitchberg 22:15, 18 April 2006 (UTC)


Mitchberg's modest proposal is the only solution. Mitchberg hit the nail on the head with the wrong definition statement; not to mention the train wreck description. the article, now, is 'blue-eyed black people music...and artists from other genres who were influenced by black people music'. this article -- which has the word "soul" in its title -- should focus on artists of the teena marie/joss stone ilk, who consistently make soul music. other articles (eg, white r&b, list of artist influenced by black music, blue-eyed rap, etc.) should be created instead of lumping everyone in this article and taking away its integrity. again, absent a compelling reason to do otherwise, I will make these changes in the next 24 hours. tim 22:47, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree, with one minor exception: "Blue-Eyed Soul" was a recognized genre in the Brit musical press in the '80s and '90s. It covered acts like the Eurythmics, Simply Red, ABC and a slew of others. It was separate from the Teena Marie genre - but it was called "blue eyed soul" in as many words, so it would need, I think, to be linked.
Which is where my whole "working definition" bit comes in. I think coming up with a working definition of the term would help a lot.
Mitchberg 00:46, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
I will support any article that includes Christina Aguilera and Jon B. Both done (especially Jon B.) amazing in the blue-eyed soul category and are currently respected as such (proof being on BET's countdown). Why New Kids is next to Michael McDonald I don't know (I didn't do it), but not having Aguilera, Stone or Buck in this article in some form I feel is a bit slanted. The genre of soul music has evolved and as such its artists within it. Antares33712 01:52, 19 April 2006 (UTC)


[edit] "Caucasian" not technically-correct term for "white"

I changed Caucasian to white because it's not a technically accurate synonym for white people, especially since one of the meanings is people from the Caucasus region. Of course the whole concept of race is a dodgy subject when it comes to scientific definitions, but that's a whole different topic.Spylab 16:40, 5 September 2006 (UTC)Spylab

[edit] First use of term blue-eyed soul?

There has been discussion about this already, but is there a consensus on when the term "blue-eyed soul was first used? I always thought it was in the 1960s, but this article makes it sound like that it wasn't used until the 1980s. I dont want to change it since I don't have anything to verify it.Spylab 20:08, 5 September 2006 (UTC)Spylab


I found some links that say the term was, in fact first used in the 1960s.

I have integrated some of that information into the article, but now there's some repetition, and it needs to be reorganized. I'll do my best later. Hopefully others can help out too, since I'm not familiar with many of the artists listed, and don't know which time periods they all belong in.Spylab 13:17, 6 September 2006 (UTC)Spylab

[edit] Brown-eyed soul?

I've heard this term used specifically to describe the white, soul-influenced rock bands that came out of the New York metropolitan area in the 1960s, such as the Rascals, Vanilla Fudge, the Soul Survivors, the Vagrants, etc. ,due to the fact that the members of those bands were usually Italian-American or Jewish. Has anyone else ever heard this term used before?

I've noticed there is a Wikipedia article about "brown-eyed soul" now, although limited in scope, and grouping together the very significant Chicano soul movement in the Western U.S. with "brown-eyed" soul in the sense described above, referring to Northeastern Italian-Americans and Jews playing soul music. The article omits any mention of the Rascals or the other bands mentioned above, but it's still better than nothing. Death2Objectivism 18:10, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] British & American

Why are there only sections for post-80's British and American musicians?

Also, one of the members of the Fine Young Cannibals was black; so why are they listed as "Blue-Eyed Soul"?

And for that matter, why are Duran Duran listed? Do you really think ANYONE considers their music to be "Soul"? Same for the Human League.

[edit] Anastacia

I dont know if many know of this singer but she definetly should be listed because of her style during her carrer from 2000-2002 and she still retains those qualities since, she fits the description of someone singing in this genre. Maybe I,m wrong, what do you think..please comment —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.41.138.31 (talk) 21:02, 6 December 2006 (UTC).


[edit] There Are More!

50's New Orleans R&B - Jimmy Clanton, Frankie Ford Oldies Circuit - Curtis Lee 60's R&B - Shades Of Blue, Okaysions, Len Barry, The Buckinghams 70's - Ambrosia, Dr. Hook (circa 1979-80), Wild Cherry, Ace 80's R&B - Sheena Easton (circa 1984-1991), Kenny Loggins (between 1980-1982) 90's - Robyn (Swedish artist)

Only for that 86 album that the Human League was considered soul music - top five on the soul charts to be exact - entire album was produced by Jimmy Jam & Terry Lewis. Elton John is correctly listed since he had a few crossover songs on the R&B charts... so did David Bowie in two separate efforts (1975 and 1983).

Generally blue-eyed soul artists essentially move in that direction somewhat permanently or brought up in the music such as Hall & Oates.

[edit] Mariah!

Mariah Carey is of partial African-American descent, so I took the liberty to remove her from the list. I am a man of sheer logic. Mrbluesky 21:21, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] This is so subjective

This list of allegedly blue eyed soul artists is so subjective... I don't know what is the best way to describe it... I would say supposedly "street cred" or stuff that gets played on Soul Train, or R&B/Quiet Storm Stations or from just plain word of mouth. e.g. Boz Scaggs "Low Down," Hall & Oates " She's Gone," and Bee Gees "Love So Right" were huge in the inner city in 1976... I just happen to go to an inner city school and lived in the projects half of my life. Another is to go to youtube and read the reactions or the posts... Another is the bible ..."Billboard R&B Charts." That will tell you which artists got R&B airplay. It is subjective because any artist can have a pseudo R&B number....e.g. country singers such as Ronnie Milsap, Eddie Rabbitt - both had R&B influenced hits... Janis Joplin is hardly what I call a soul singer... She's a blues singer not a soul singer and there is a difference.

In other words - the additions I put in which is hyperlinked will illustrate some proof. There were some glaring omissions. I've listed Toto as a proponent of late 70's blue eyed soul... They've had their one big R&B hit "Georgy Porgy" but were also responsible for Cheryl Lynn's "Got To Be Real, " Boz Scaggs' "Low Down" and George Benson's "Turn Your Love Around" and "Lady Love Me."

Sometimes the sum of two parts sometimes equal or doesn't equal what it supposed to be... e.g. Bobby Caldwell was the writer of Boz Scaggs' Heart of Mine - but the end result was a typical late 80's AC ballad (rather than a R&B ballad).. Pete (18 with a bullet) Wingfield produced Paul Young's Oh Girl. Wingfield hit the top 20 R&B and pop charts in 1975 with "Bullet".

02:29, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Joe Cocker

Removed the venerable Joe Cocker - checked the wikipedia article on him... He is a "blues or blues-rock singer" not an "R&B/Soul Singer."

18:18, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Mariah Carey???

Mariah Carey is half black....more specifically her father is Venezuelan of African origin. If you are going to include Mariah Carey who is as black as Derek Jeter...then you must include Alicia Keys whose mother is white... C'mon this article loses credibility rapidly when I see Celine Dion's name on this list... Dion's idol is Barbra Streisand not Aretha Franklin. I saw Carey's name put back on this list... Must be a troll or a practical joker. Please list your sources to back up your claim. *Wikipedia is a good way to start.*

02:39, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Corinne Bailey Rae

This is ridiculous. Took her out. She's of St. Kitts heritage (her father)....which means she is of Afro-Caribbean heritage... (e.g. Billy Ocean)... This is not about brit-soul in general but blue eyed brit soul... Please check your sources...

23:07, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Elton John

Elton John no longer does r&b based material - but he had 3 top 30 r&b records in the 1970's.... "Bennie & The Jets" (which reached the top 20), "Philadelphia Freedom" and "Mama Can't Buy You Love." He SHOULD not be excluded - just because of his current material which is straight adult contemporary.. He appeared on SOUL TRAIN - obviously r&b stations were paying attention to him in 1975. Source - Billboard's book of Number One Songs. Note: Both Bobby Caldwell and Boz Scaggs no longer does r&b stuff as well and doesn't perform their r&b crossover hits in concert. The Body of Tom Jones work is not R&B (he also has a number one country hit) - Annie Lennox's stuff with the Eurythmics is Synth-Pop; until going solo... Re-added Elton John (in the 60's and 70's category when he crossed-over).

Note: There are a lot of rock bands that crossed over - most notably Queen's Another One Bites The Dust in 1980 which hit the top 5 R&B.... and should have at least a separate category.

20:46, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Needs Work

This article needs an expert touch.... Flagged it for a better cleanup....

02:36, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Dammit

if the term was brown eyed rock, and meant rock played by black people, there would be a big controversy about it! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Timothy Barson (talk • contribs) 16:21, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Oddities

Crossover hits by generally white pop,rock or country artists on the R&B charts are rare...but they do happen... Technically on the borderline when it comes listing these artists as blue-eyed soul because they really aren't. They may have one funky or soulful number on an album that crossed over. e.g. Osmonds-One Bad Apple (#6 R&B in 1971), Queen-Another One Bites The Dust; Dr. Hook-Sexy Eyes; Paul McCartney who collaborated with both Stevie Wonder and Michael Jackson; J. Geils Band-Flamethrower; Steve Miller Band-Fly Like An Eagle; Peter Gabriel-Sledgehammer; Kenny Rogers-Lady; Laid Back-White Horse; Thomas Dolby-She blinded me with science; Foreigner-I Want To Know What Love Is.

05:16, 2 May 2008 (UTC)