Talk:Bloody Friday (1972)

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1 Consensus
2 Categorisation
3 Category: IRA killings
4 Original research?
5 Belfast Bomb Blitz
6 Third opinion
7 3O reply
8 Sentence removed
9 "Dead" section
10 WikiProject class rating

[edit] Consensus

May I suggest that we try and reach a consensus here before any controversial changes or reverts are made?

(It is rather difficult to track three different project pages and, so far this article's talk page has been little used other than for placing templates and one case of vandalism) W. Frank 23:09, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Categorisation

I am a bit of an inclusionist when it comes to categories. The more the merrier unless the categories are grossly misleading. W. Frank 23:09, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Category: IRA killings

Replaced as per discussion on request for category deletion page. [1] W. Frank 23:09, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Removed per category talk page. That category was deleted while discussion was ongoing, and as discussion has not concluded it should not have been unilaterally recreated. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 10:28, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Genuine question: how can discussion on the category's talk page ever be concluded (or even start) when, as you say, the original category was deleted before this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2007_April_9#Category:IRA_killings was ever concluded (conclusion was, eventually, keep)? W. Frank 12:40, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

As you're well aware, there is a lengthy discussion on the categorie's talk page, which you have failed to reply to, and simply assumed you could re-create the category and employ it. The category was deleted by Tyrenius to allow discussion to take place, it seems to me as the discussion wasn't going in favour of use of the category, you've chosen to ignore it completely. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 12:43, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Please assume good faith on my part. I think you do know that I am not as knowledgeable about the minutiae of WP and I would be grateful if you could point me towards this discussion if it is NOT this reference: [2] —The preceding unsigned comment was added by W. Frank (talk • contribs) 12:48, 13 May 2007 (UTC).

You are more than aware of the discussion on the talk page, as I posted on your talk page inviting you to contribute to it. On the talk page Tyrenius clearly states that he has deleted the category to allow discussion to take place. 12:53, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Genuine oversight on my part. Thank you for drawing it to my attention. In case anyone else is as stupid as me (doubtful) here's the full reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category_talk:IRA_killings

I think I said my piece before (resulting in me being blocked and my talk page and record being sullied) so I think I will recuse myself from further discussion and try and enjoy my (very overcast) holiday.

Thank you for assisting me in becoming a better and more useful editor. W. Frank 13:09, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Original research?

What was the "original research" referred to in edit summary by One Night In Hackney: (rv per talk - and please don't add original research), please ? W. Frank 12:45, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Adding "civilian" as a target is original research, and incorrect. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 12:47, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

But the article itself summarises the civilian targets:

2:09 p.m. (Windsor Park, Belfast)

A bomb (estimated at 30 pounds (14 kg) of explosive) was detonated on the footbridge over the Dublin to Belfast railway line at Windsor Park. 2:36 p.m. (Brookvale Hotel, Brookvale Avenue, north Belfast) A bomb (estimated at 50 pounds (23 kg) of explosive) exploded at the Brookvale Hotel, in Brookvale Avenue, north Belfast. 2:40 p.m. (Ulster Bank, Limestone Road, north Belfast) The car bomb (estimated at 50 pounds (23 kg) of explosive) exploded outside the branch of the Ulster Bank on the Limestone Road, north Belfast. The site of this bomb was a few hundred yards from the first bomb. This area had not been cleared. A local Catholic woman was caught in the blast and lost both legs. Motorists, in cars which were caught up in the traffic chaos, were also injured in the blast. 2:52 p.m. (Botanic Railway Station, Botanic Avenue, Belfast) A car bomb (estimated at 50 pounds (23 kg) of explosive) exploded outside the railway station in Botanic Avenue. 2:53 p.m. (Queen Elizabeth Bridge, Belfast) A car bomb (estimated at 160 pounds (73 kg) of explosive) exploded without warning on the Queen Elizabeth Bridge. 3:02 p.m. (Agnes Street, Belfast) A car bomb (estimated at 30 pounds (14 kg) of explosive) exploded outside a group of Protestant houses in Agnes Street. Those in the area did not receive a warning but there were no serious injuries. 3:02 p.m. (Liverpool Bar, Donegall Quay, Belfast) A bomb (estimated at 50 pounds (23 kg) of explosive) exploded in the Liverpool Bar in Donegall Quay. There was no clear warning and the explosion caused a few casualties. 3:02 p.m. (Bellevue, north Belfast) A bomb (estimated at 30 pounds (14 kg) of explosive) exploded on the bridge over the M2 motorway at Bellevue in north Belfast. There were no serious injuries in this explosion. 3:03 p.m. (York Street Station, York Street, Belfast) A bomb (estimated at 30 pounds (14 kg) of explosive) exploded at York Street railway station. The bomb was contained in a suitcase and exploded before the station could be cleared. There were a number of casualties. 3:04 p.m. (Ormeau Avenue, Belfast) A car bomb (estimated at 50 pounds (23 kg) of explosive) exploded in Ormeau Avenue. Those in the area did not receive a warning. However, there were no serious injuries. 3:05 p.m. (Eastwood's Garage, Donegall Road, Belfast) A car bomb (estimated at 150 pounds (68 kg) of explosive) destroyed Eastwood's Garage on Donegall Road. There were no serious injuries in the explosion. 3:10 p.m. (Oxford Street Bus Depot, Oxford Street, Belfast) A car bomb exploded outside the Ulsterbus depot in Oxford Street. This explosion resulted in the greatest loss of life and the greatest number of casualties, of any of the bombs on the day. 3:15 p.m. (Stewartstown Road, Belfast) A bomb, thought to have been abandoned on the Stewartstown Road, exploded but caused no serious injuries. 3:20 p.m. (Cavehill Road, north Belfast) A car bomb (estimated at 50 pounds (23 kg) of explosive) exploded outside a row of single storey shops near the top of the Cavehill Road, north Belfast. Those caught in the blast had no warning of the bomb. The shops were in a religiously-mixed residential area. Two women and a man died in this blast. Mrs Margaret O'Hare (37), a Catholic mother of seven children, died in her car. Her 11-year-old daughter was with her in her car and was badly injured. Miss Brigid Murray (65), a Catholic, was also killed. Stephen Parker (14), a Protestant teenager, also died in the explosion. In addition there were a number of serious injuries. 3:25 p.m. (Railway Line, near Lisburn Road, Belfast) A bomb exploded on the railway line near the Lisburn Road, but caused no casualties. 3:25 p.m. (Crumlin Road, Belfast) Two bombs (both estimated at 50 pounds (23 kg) of explosive) exploded at the Star Garage on the Crumlin Road. There were no serious injuries in the explosions. 3:30 p.m. ('Nutts Corner', west of Belfast) A landmine was detonated on the road to Nutts Corner, west of Belfast, just as a bus full of schoolchildren was passing. The driver saw the device and swerved, avoiding the worst of the blast. It was thought that the bus may have been mistaken for a British army vehicle. There were no serious injuries in the explosion. 3:30 p.m. (Northern Ireland Carriers Depot, Grosvenor Road, Belfast) A bomb (estimated at 50 pounds (23 kg) of explosive) exploded at the Northern Ireland Carriers depot on the Grosvenor Road. There were no serious injuries in the explosion.

Which of these targets should be regarded as not civilian? W. Frank 12:58, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Those would be victims, not targets. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 12:55, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Yet again ONIH has demonstrated succinct and clear reasoning; I consider W. Frank’s contribution is bordering on disruptive (no disrespect intended). I have learned more from ONIH on policies and there application through discussions such as this than I ever would by simply reading policy pages. W. Frank’s attempts to obfuscate the issue, as illustrated with their last contribution is becoming unfortunately all too familiar. Please respect the policies and the decisions reached through consultation and consensus.--Domer48 13:23, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

I think that after nearly two weeks, I am entirely justified in asking pertinent unanswered questions again:

Which exactly of the 22 bombs were targeted at Military targets
Where exactlyare the sources for establishing the intentions of the bombers when they targeted their victims?

In the absence of exact and timely answers to these two questions, it follows as night follows day that the claim that only economic and military victims were targeted must be removed.

The article does not say any of the 22 bombs were aimed at military targets. The article says the IRA's bombing campaign targeted both economic and military targets, which is correct and not unreasonable to include in the article. The article specifically states the targets on this occasion were economic, which is again correct.

The source for establishing the intentions is in the article, this link has Chief of Staff Seán Mac Stíofáin stating that the aim of the attacks was to cause financial damage. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 14:26, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

W. Frank , is either, unwilling or unable to provide referenced material to substantiate their understanding of the incident. Unwilling, because this would involve research, (i.e. time and energy) in addition, one would have to have a genuine interest in furthering their knowledge and understanding of the incident, and welcoming their views being challenged. I see nothing to be gained in pandering to editors who can not back up their views with referenced material.--Domer48 14:54, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Belfast Bomb Blitz

Removed, as I can't find a single source that uses the term; see here. If anyone can reliably source it from more than one source, I'd have no objection to it going back. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 13:05, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Third opinion

This article has been in a static state for quite some time, and then I had to revert this edit due to failure to engage in further discussion on the talk page. I had already stated the apology could easily be sourced by an external link in the article, and that I would add footnotes when time permitted. After reverting, I made these edits to source certain aspects, and also changed the wording to match what the source actually stated. I also required a citation for one statement, and a clarification on the nature of "some".

This was then reverted by the editor as an IP. He then made these edits. The problems with them are as follows.

I have explained to this editor before why PIRA is not used and why IRA is, as can be seen here.
The figure of 139 being added doesn't even match the infobox which says 130, and the figure of 139 is completely unsourced.
Sean MacStiofain is not "a IRA leader", he was the IRA Chief of Staff therefore he was "the IRA leader".
Sean MacStiofain never said that "the bombings were part of a concerted bombing campaign carried out by the Provisional IRA against purely military and economic targets" as was added, the source says nothing of the sort. However this is a fact, it is the opinion held by every scholar who has ever written a book about the IRA, in fact it is common knowledge. The only people who refuse to accept this are people who wish to push an anti-republican POV, including this editor.
Sean MacStiofain didn't explicity say "the warnings were ignored by the British Army to cause civilian casualties that would discredit the IRA", in fact this is the very sentence I specifically changed to match the souce. So it should absolutely not have been changed back.
The infobox has had the word "economic" removed, despite this being sourced. The source was removed at the same time.
"However this is not widely deemed to be credible" - I specifically asked for a citation for this, the tag was removed and no citation given. That is 100% definitely a statement that requires sourcing or removing. However as it's an anti-republican statement, it's been allowed to stand unsourced to push a POV.
"Along with some accurate warnings" - I specifically asked for clarification on the nature of "some", and again the tag has been removed.

I am facing nothing but disruption from someone determined to push an anti-republican POV, who removes sources that don't suit his POV, refuses to cite controversial statements, has no respect for consensus, and refuses to communicate on the articles talk page. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 18:59, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

130 + 9 = 139

I haven't checked the IP of the anonymous editor but it was certainly not I !

Reversion should generally be kept for vandals.

Wikipedia has a neutral point of view, which means we strive for articles that advocate no single point of view. Sometimes this requires representing multiple points of view; presenting each point of view accurately; providing context for any given point of view, so that readers understand whose view the point represents; and presenting no one point of view as "the truth" or "the best view". It means citing verifiable, authoritative sources whenever possible, especially on such a controversial (for you) topic as this. When a conflict arises as to which version is the most neutral, declare a cool-down period and tag the article as disputed.

Enjoy the weather down south as I really must get back to my holidays. W. Frank ✉

What sources have you cited? You removed neutral sources because you didn't like what they said! If reversion is for vandals why did you keep reverting to your preferred POV version with unsourced statements, instead of the reliably sourced version? One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 19:18, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Also the 139 figure can't stand the way it currently is. Only two soldiers died, but you have no cite for every person injured being a civilian. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 19:34, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

I find User talk:W._Frank behaviour disruptive and argumentative. Reasonable and logical discussion has become pointless. Either reference contributions, or respect consensus. --Domer48 19:37, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 3O reply

As I understand it, this issue is a disagreement between reliable and verifiable sourcing versus overall neutrality, with

One Night In Hackney claiming that statements in the article must be sourced to reliable. and
User:W._Frank claiming that WP:NPOV is equally important so as not to overly bias an article in one direction.

-Original research

In this case, WP:RS is a guideline whereas verifiability, no original research and neutral point of view are actually official policies.

W._Frank's statement:

"...It means citing verifiable, authoritative sources whenever possible.." (my highlighting)

is only partially correct. What it actually means is only citing verifiable and authoritative sources and citing them in an NPOV manner. Making any statements which are not sourced to someone else's primary or secondary published works, violates the policy against original research. The policy regarding original research is very clear:

Wikipedia is not the place for original research. Citing sources and avoiding original research are inextricably linked: the only way to demonstrate that you are not presenting original research is to cite reliable sources that provide information directly related to the topic of the article, and to adhere to what those sources say.

-NPOV

The policy on content neutrality is 'absolute and non-negotiable'. What this means is that every significant view (that has been published in reliable sources) can be represented fairly and without bias. It does not mean that every view can be represented nor that every view gets equal weight.

If there is no reliably sourced material, which represents a particular viewpoint, then that viewpoint is probably not significant and would not qualify to be represented under the WP:NPOV policy.

-Other comments

1. One Night In Hackney begins by claiming that s/he had to revert to an older version.

This is a false claim. We do not have to do anything. By taking the position that you 'have' to revert, then you are taking an uncompromising stance. It may have been easier to revert but was not mandatory.

2. One Night In Hackney stated that footnotes would be 'added later as time permitted'.

This asks for other editors to allow something, that they may not agree with, to stay until you can support it. I would suggest that you wait until after you have the footnotes ready, before you insert content. This is only an encyclopedia article and waiting a day or two, until you have all the required documentation ready, will not cause an end-of-world melt down.

3. One Night In Hackney, in several places, refers to W._Frank as an anti-Republican.

I would caution against this type of language for several reasons. Whether true or not, making the statement does not demonstrate good faith in the context of an article discussion or, more specifically, in a Third-Opinion request. Whether or not W._Frank is anti-Republican, is quite irrelevant to a factual request in a 3O. And making such claims only widens the gap of disagreement and reduces the chance of compromise. Keep in mind that, unless you want to 'protect' your article 24/7, it is always better to get a consensus from all editors.

As for the other point-by-point for each citation, I do not believe they need to be addressed at this time. If they are reliably sourced from secondary and primary sources, they should be included. If not, then they shouldn't.

Hopefully this has helped. Lsi john 22:22, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the input. My point with the footnotes is that given I had stated exactly how it could be sourced, an editor acting in good faith and not acting disruptively would have been more than able to add the required footnote rather than ask for a citation.

With regards to NPOV, that precisely what I'm aiming towards. I've introduced reliable neutral sources, and these have been removed to allow POV statements to be introduced instead. As I said above W._Frank has not added a single source to the article to back up his edits. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 22:27, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Again, with the 'good faith' and 'disruptive' implications. It is unproductive (and unwise) to declare judgment about another editor's motives. Had you provided all the footnotes to begin with, and then been reverted, you would be in a much better position to declare bad-faith and disruptive. As I see it, you opened the door for being reverted. Another editor might look at what you did and could conclude you were 'baiting' in bad-faith. Note: I do not choose to look at it that way. I am only suggesting that someone could sit in judgment on you and conclude bad-faith on your part. Take responsibility for your editing. Dot all the i's and cross all the t's. If you get reverted, ask yourself what you could have done differently. Sometimes it won't matter. Sometimes you will be dealing with a WP:TE editor and nothing will matter. But allow someone else to draw that conclusion. Don't lead them to it.

There is nothing requiring the sources to be 'neutral'. The sources are what they are. The requirement is that the viewpoints are presented fairly and without bias. For example, note the differences:

Dr Henry, PhD, claimed that medication can help people with multiple personality disorder.
World renowned expert psychologist, with 17 degrees in sociology, psychology and disruptive behavior, and best-selling author, Dr Henry, PhD, firmly declared that it was a proven fact that medication can help people with multiple personality disorder.
Dr henry, PhD, convicted 3 times for drunk driving, and later divorced, claimed that medication can help people with multiple personality disorder.

That being said, finding 17 sources which all state the same position, when 3 sources will do, is probably unnecessary. And research time would be better (and more NPOV) spent, finding less prominently published but significant and opposing views. If we are aware of opposing views, it is our responsibility as NPOV editors, to help find them and get them into the article in a fair and balanced way, in proportion to their weight. Lsi john 22:52, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

I would also add that it is also unproductive to simply revert, rather than improve someone's edit.

Some things that might be useful in this article are:

Timeline - what is the verifiable source of this timeline?
Media response - what was the news media response from both viewpoints?
Economic/Society impact - what was the overall impact of this?
Response - were there any official responses to the situation? Were there any meetings? negotiations?
Resolution - was there anything which was resolved by this or is the situation still continuing today?

Lsi john 00:06, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

I fully agree that is unproductive to revert. However when an editor removes a source to change a statement to a POV one and adds original research there is little that can be done to improve their edit other than revert, especially if they persist in continually reverting back to that version.

The timeline seems wrong looking at it. To the best of my knowledge (and CAIN are reliable) this is the timeline, and it doesn't match the article. Next on my list will be to re-write to conform to what the source says, and tidy up the ugly formatting as well. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 00:18, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Actually, my comment was intended to address W._Frank's revert of your material. However if you can find value in applying it to your own actions, then so much the better. I look forward to following up and reading a better sourced and more thorough article. Something else which is absent is the reason. Why did this happen? What do the published sources say about the reasons on both sides of this debate? Keep up the good work. Lsi john 02:35, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sentence removed

"Except for two British soldiers, all 139 victims were civilian" - this may or may not be true. Two soldiers died, but others may have been injured. WP:Verifiability states the burden of evidence is on the editor who adds material, please provide sources to prove this statement before adding it back. Brixton Busters 17:53, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Dead" section

This is redundant. The names and the like are already mentioned inline. There is no need for information to be duplicated. Brixton Busters 22:25, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] WikiProject class rating

This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 05:51, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

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