Talk:Black tie

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Added quite a few things, including more than one button on a DJ being seen as incorrect in the UK; altered the wing collar with DJ bit (the modern type are fround upon as they are considered cheating, and has nothing to do with white tie); where white dinner jackets are seen to be appropriate in the UK, and took out top hats as being appropriate (top hats should never be worn with a jacket as opposed to a coat (e.g. tailcoat, morning coat, frock coat), even if you are wearing an overcoat) and added straw boaters as acceptable in the summer.

My tailor at Huntsman does not agree on one button mentioned above or tux in UK (says it is fine for summer balls). Then again, he also tells me off for wearing my mess jacket. Just letting you know.
Yes, I also find the "you can't wear a two-button single-breasted dinner jacket in the UK" line slightly dubious myself. It is true that the traditional jacket would have just the one button but even amongst traditionalists and conservatives today, I often find people in two-button single breasted jackets. I even have a picture of Ian Fleming in one.--Zoso Jade 19:26, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

At Harvard in the 1960s, young men in dinner jackets seen during the late afternoon hastening towards an event would be hailed by ironic cries of "Check please!" -- I assume (after some thought) that this is because people thought they looked like waiters. The article doesn't mention waiters anywhere else, though, so it's not terribly clear: can someone clarify this within the article? Marnanel 22:43, 26 Feb 2004 (UTC)

That is the impression I got. Many comedies seem to explore the subject. To me it has always seemed rather inappropriate to dress "servants" in a fashion that can be confused with guests'. --blades 18:39, May 8, 2004 (UTC)
G. K. Chesterton exploits this in his short story "The Queer Feet". The confusion should be eliminated by the supposition that anyone who is a guest will look unmistakably like a gentleman, whereas anyone who is a servant will not. Opera hat 13.36, 13 Sept. 2004 (BST)


Contents

[edit] What shall Women Wear?

I am a bit puzzled that it's not mentioned what women shall wear at a Black Tie event.

  • It's covered briefly in the introduction. See this site for an exhaustive explanation. Deltabeignet (talk) 05:26, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] "Cumberbund"?

Introduced by an anon. user as an "alternative" spelling. Apparently this is a mishearing from a stratum where the cummerbund is considered an encumbrance. With equal sense we could add "alternative" spelling cummerbung and cummerbum. --Wetman 04:50, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Agreed. I've removed it from here and from the cummerbund page, the only two places in Wikipedia where it appeared. See the talk page for cummerbund for further justification. PeteVerdon 00:17, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] "Highland regalia"

"Kilts have become normal wear for formal occasions, for example being hired for weddings in much the same way as top hat and tails are in England or tuxedos across the pond, and can be worn by anyone regardless of nationality or descent. " A recipe for fools. One could with equal truth say that any coat-of-arms can be selected and painted on the doors of one's SUV, "by anyone regardless of nationality or descent." In such circles, it is thought quite witty when someone refers to the North Atlantic as "the pond". --Wetman 19:17, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Reply

Now, coat-of-arms are "issued" by varrious authorities, usually governmental in nature, but also from some other "real" authorities, like varrious royal houses, and religious authorities. They can be obtained by those that are acceptable, in some conditions, like military officers and accidemic educated.

The "kilt" can be worn by anyone with scottish heritage (including by marrage), or from a location with a tartan (Canada and each province has a tartan that would be appropriate to wear). Many organizations also have a tartan (wearing that as well is acceptable). The point is to wear an appropriate tartan. Wearing the tartan is accepting the leadership of that "clan." A mute point today. There are many approriate tartans to wear. A person form Chile would wear the Cochrane tartan, to recognize the great contribution of the Admiral Cochrane to that country. Of course, if you have ever worn a kilt, the Government tartan is always appropriate. see link www.electricscotland.com/webclans/weartart.htm --User:Glenlarson

"A person from Chile would wear the Cochrane tartan, to recognize the great contribution of Admiral Cochrane to that country." Well, I live where Lorna Doone cookies are baked... But, which tartan would be appropriate if you were, say, from Vladivostok and stationed in Antarctica, one wonders... A "mute point" indeed! Similar fantasies encourage truly naive Americans to send away for "their" family crest-- say Smith-- and display it with pride to the gawping locals! The text remains in the article, what one calls "only a snare for geese."
—"I think we're all bozos on this bus." -Firesign Theater. --Wetman 01:47, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)--Wetman 01:47, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)
The original text was copied form the article titled kilt. Many may be upset at others wearing the kilt; however, Scottish culture has been spread around the world, including India and Pakistan, or any "British" Caribbean island, which have pipe bands. Few would think them of Scottish extraction, but they may be, and would have "right" to a kilt, regardless. They may even have a Scottish name!
One point of vies is but that, one. The talk page provides a forum for review, and yes many naive people do get "snared" ( see also Talk:Tartan). Don't know it is assumed I am a "Yank" but I do have more Scot blood than any other, all be it low land, but not the "name."
The reference for the assertion was provided. Do they live near?
Now white tie, was first what a Swed would wear to a wedding! --User:Glenlarson
A good definition of drag in its broadest sense is "a costume or outfit that while it carries symbolic significance, is being worn on occasions or in situations for which it was not originally intended". If I am invited to a wedding, rather than wear a kilt at random, I might with equal propriety— though my beard is silver— wear a hat covered in blue tulle roses, a modest string of pearls and "go as a duchess." --Wetman 06:13, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)


Not a contribution to the discussion, just restating your position. Indeed, some Scots may be upset with those wearing the kilt, but others are not. --User:Glenlarson
Fair enough. Not claiming to be "offended" is a mark of cultural maturity. --Wetman 02:49, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)


I'm going to take it out. It is as absurd to suggest that anyone can wear a kilt, except for fancy dress, as it is to suggest that a Irishman can reasonably attend a formal dinner in the full regalia of a native American chief. If you're not Scottish, preferably born in Scotland, you will look very foolish. Just because many people do, does not make it OK. Brentford 10:13, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Placed it back in, although the statement has been changed to read more of a fact statement. Again, many are doing this, and "accept" the Scottish culture. Most have some reason. Again, the original text is copied from the article titled kilt. Here the discussion is not concerned about this area but only what is worn under the kilt (regimental?). The statements here draw discussion; however, it needs to be resolved on the kilt page as well. Now, native Americian's do have a system for awarding title and thus "full regalia" to others, and it would be appropriate to wear such afterwards. People don't look foolish in this area when they wear the kilt, and good gentlemen accept their motivation for wearing the kilt, genetic, marriage, military service, or other. People are perhaps upset at the growing number of non tartan kilts being sold and worn by the youth; however, it is occuring, and although the kilt article does not have such reference (yet)(opps, ith artcle kilt does have this material). Simply deleting a fact is not acceptable in an encyclopedia.--User:Glenlarson


Put the text:

Kilts have become normal wear for formal occasions, for example being hired for weddings in much the same way as top hat and tails are in England or tuxedos across the pond, and the kilt is being worn by anyone regardless of nationality or descent.

back in. Everyone seams to want to delete it because they don't like it, but this text needs to be discusses on the article on kilts and resolved first, where they are not concerned about the statement but only what is worn under the kilt. Some other edits, monkey jacket replaced by Eaton style jacket. .--User:Glenlarson

[edit] Changed - Alternate derived (presumably) definition of "cummerbund" to - Alternate definition (slang - SCUBA) of "cummerbund"

Velcro wider type is called a cummerbund rather than a buckle closing waistband. -was moved to another page


[edit] Photos

I think this page has too many photos and I propose to edit them down. I don't think it's appropriate that people should put up photos of themselves or their friends, and we should perhaps only have photos of people notable for their style, etc., as well as a few images of 'alternative' forms of black tie. Andrew Yong 20:14, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Having the photos to use were first, friends just because they were, until other photos were found. The biggest problem with Wikipedia it the failure to ilistrate well the articles. --User:Glenlarson

[edit] Fair use

I've taken the FairUse pictures out of this article, as I don't see how fair use can apply here. Most are promotional material and such, which is fine for articles about their subjects, but not as illustrations for other subjects. See Wikipedia:Fair use. --W(t) 12:21, 2005 Jun 6 (UTC)

[edit] D.J.

I've just replaced the term "D.J." in the sentence describing the UK (and elsewhere in brackets) term for this dress. I see from the history that Wetman removed it last year, but he didn't really give much of an explanation. "D.J." is a common abbreviation in the UK (though slowly being replaced among young people who wouldn't normally wear one by "tux" from innumerable "prom" storylines in US TV programmes) so a more concrete objection is requested before deleting it again. Thanks. PeteVerdon 00:42, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Black Tie versus Dinner Jacket/Tuxedo

The definition of black tie is inheritently contradictory. It is defined as a synonym for "dinner jacket" or "tuxedo" and, at the same time, as a dress code. Only the latter is correct. Unlike "dinner jacket" or "tuxedo", "black tie" is not an article of clothing. While black tie certainly requires a dinner jacket/tuxedo, putting on such a jacket does not necessarily mean being dressed for black tie. If this were the case then all formal proms and weddings would be considered black tie events. The difference lies in the details of the outfit, such as colour and style. It is more correct to consider "black tie" not as a noun but as an adjective similar to "formal" or "semiformal". Peter Marshall 19:00, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

  • I agree. This needs to be a short article on what to wear to a black tie affair versus a white tie or semiformal affair. Tuxedo should have its own article; not disambiguate to here. That's like having business suit disambiguate to work. --Tysto 00:32, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
  • I agree with Tysto, Black tie and Tuxedo are quite different, I would recommend creating two separate articles to distinguish the two. Schnarr 01:47, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Black Tie for waitstaff

Many continental Europeans and Latin Americans have commented to me (an American) that they would never wear "black tie." To them, this is considered to be the uniform of the waitstaff for a formal event. They typically wear a dark suit for evening wear. In the case of the most formal event, they wear a morning suit in the day, and white tie at night.

Interesting comment to me. I grew up on Father Brown mysteries and The Queer Feet, found in The Innocence of Father Brown covers just that subject with a thief alternately being a waiter and a gentleman as he steals the silverware. -Fuzzy 14:58, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
It's correct that black ties are generlly only worn by waitstaff, everyone else wears white ties. There are, of course, exceptions to this rule, such as, some academic events, and some funerals. (I know these exceptions are valid in Sweden, not sure about the rest of Europe, but rules are probably similar)./probell (Talk)

[edit] Separate collar

Is it really bad form to wear a shirt with a sewn-in collar? I feel like it is almost (if not entirely) impossible nowadays to locate and purchase a formal shirt with collar studs and no attached collar. I can almost imagine Jeeves scolding Bertie Wooster for wearing a pre-attached collar, but I think times have changed as far as this matter is concerned. Thoughts, anyone?

Since the second war it's been acceptable, and is now pretty much compulsory, as wing collars are no longer conventional for black tie.
I think I understand what the article means. It wasn't stated quite right so I have gone back and changed it. Separate wing collars were the norm but as these are no longer generally available, a classic ("normal" turn down) collar should be worn, rather than a non-detachable wing collar, which is seen as incorrect as the point in a wing collar is that it is detachable. Hence a non-detachable wing collar is just pretentious, in a manner similar to a pre-tie bow tie - the idea is almost that if one is not classy enough to have a detachable wing collar, don't bother having one at all. You'll find that "people in the know" would not be caught dead wearing a wing collar these days as it is now considered quite crass (Ben Schott makes a mention of this in his 2007 Almanac).
As the advice goes on black tie, when in doubt consult Bond. In none of the films does he wear a wing collar with his evening suit (though he does wear it with a morning suit at Felix Leiter's wedding, but then no one debates that this is correct).--Zoso Jade
Someone has edited the article to say that attached wing collars are the norm in the US, while turndowns are the norm in the UK. This is untrue; the prevalence of attached wing collars in both the US and the UK is down to the wearers being unaware of semi-formal dress. Please find me a picture of someone who should know better (i.e. Prince Charles, the President of the United States) wearing an attached wing collar.... There's a reason you can't.

20:29, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] black tie event

Can a pin-striped jacked and trousers be worn to a black tie event?

In a word, no.

[edit] Top hat with dinner jacket

According to Chapter XXXIV ("The Clothes of a Gentleman") of Emily Post's Etiquette in Society, in Business, in Politics and at Home (1922, New York, Funk and Wagnalls) (full text available at http://www.bartleby.com/95/ ), regarding tuxedo clothes, "The smartest hat for town wear is an opera, but a straw or felt which is proper in the country, is not out of place in town. Otherwise, in the street the accessories are the same as those already given under the previous heading." I believe "opera" is another term for a collapsible silk top hat. Michael Gerard Tom 04:52, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] External Links/Sources

I'm not a Wikipedia editor and am just passing through, but I saw that this article needs sources and wanted to recommend a web site. It may make a suitable external link; may be a good source for some of the material in this article; or may be a good place to find other useful sources for the material: there is a comprehensive bibliography on the site. It ought to come in particularly useful in relation to the "Black Tie versus Dinner Jacket/Tuxedo" discussion above, and to the "history of the tuxedo" section of the article. The URL is http://www.blacktieguide.com. Best regards from MelissaKD.199.8.210.54 21:41, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree that this is a decent site for references. It discusses both traditional black tie and new "American" (I am loathe to call these American, as the American upper-classes tend to stick to the first traditional code and not the "American" style) incarnations and it notes that these two dress codes are, despite what a casual observer might think, completely different.
However, I am a bit conflicted as to the legitimacy of having references at all. As with any dress code, there will always be an element of subjectivity, and this makes it hard to make any legitimate claim of any source being correct.--Zoso Jade 19:34, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Recent vandalism by 72.81.75.137

Just to say the comments recently made by this user should be treated as vandalism and not a legitimate attempt to better the article. Of course it is not known as a "burger" jacket by anyone in the UK.--Zoso Jade 14:57, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Coat & number of buttons

There appears to have recenly been some discussion on the number of buttons on a traditional dinner jacket. As the most recent version of the article - as written by another contributor -states the most traditional form is to have just one button on the jacket. This is certainly the truth, despite some recent contributor's efforts to remove this from the site. Two buttons are very rampant and are generally considered correct, though anything with more than two buttons is essentially not a dinner suit.--Zoso Jade 13:38, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] More vandalism

The good old "burger jacket" appeared (again), and has now been changed back (again).--Eta 22:14, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Objection to the use of an exclamation mark

I object to the use of an exclamation mark in the fourth paragraph of the shirt and tie area, and the comment preceding it, as it states an opinion as a fact, and does not fit with an encyclopediac style of writing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Roryyeung (talk • contribs)

Yeah. That's not really the sort of statement an encyclopedia should have. I've removed it. You should feel free to edit the article yourself too. -- SiobhanHansa 20:26, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Ribbed silk"

I've noticed that, where dinner jacket lapels are concerned, this article uses the term "ribbed silk" rather than "grosgrain." Obviously they both mean the same thing, but most formalwear retailers and manufacturers use the latter term; therefore, I believe the article should as well. Any objections to my changing it?

Eta 01:56, 18 July 2007 (UTC)