Talk:Black Sun (occult symbol)

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1 Central Sun
2 Alemannic brooches
3 SS Occult meeting room / Hocus-pocus at the Wewelsburg?
4 reliability
5 Black Sun Rising company & Wikipedia article
6 Defective symbol and Name
7 Who placed the ornament in the Obergruppenführersaal?
8 Wrong pronounciation
9 Further information about the "Black Sun" and the "Obergruppenführersaal" and Did the original sun wheel look like this?
10 Speculative statements about the "vaul" should be removed in the article
11 Fair use rationale for Image:BlackOrderJamesRollins.jpg
12 Fair use rationale for Image:SchwarzeSonneDocumentary.jpg

[edit] Central Sun

re theosophy, de:Schwarze Sonne has:

Es gibt Vermutungen, daß der Begriff auf die russische Okkultistin und Begründerin der Theosophie Helena Blavatsky zurückgeht, die in ihrem Werk "Die Geheimlehre" von einer Zentralsonne spricht.

i.e. Blavatsky doesn't use the term, but her 'Central Sun' is thought to have inspired the concept.

[edit] Alemannic brooches

We could also mention that the Wewelsburg design has loose parallels in Migration Age Alemannic brooches such as [1]. The exact design however has no precedent, and its use is unequivocally extreme-right or Neo-Nazi. dab (ᛏ) 12:56, 2 August 2005 (UTC)

As the article hints at, the symbol is not necessarily political and is also in esoteric and musical circles. This should be made clear. :bloodofox: 04:29, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Dab, I hope this information (although I know not in the best format) is useful that I have recently added, I think this article is coming along better now. Also, the images I have added are similar. however, another one ihave found as 12 rays: http://www.museum-haag.de/museum/geschos1.htm and this one is similar with 9: http://www.jadu.de/mittelalter/germanen/gk/pages/zierscheiben_jpg.htm I hope these can be of some use.

Also, the much appreciated information you have added to this image: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:SchwarzeSonneArtifacts.JPG - will you beadding it to the article as it is very interesting, especially hte daying and location of this artifacts FK0071a 17:48, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Dab, added your excellent information into the references fo rthis image. FK0071a 12:08, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] SS Occult meeting room / Hocus-pocus at the Wewelsburg?

"(...)in the room used by the SS for occult meetings." Really? I'm very uninformed on this... Vyr 01:10, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

"The shape of the symbol ... is based primarily on the design of a floor mosaic at the castle of Wewelsburg ... in the room used, in later years, by the SS for occult meetings." Can anybody give more information about those "occult meetings" or is it just one more fictiv statement about the Wewelsburg?

Re-written your comments but keept ALL of your information. Left you a message on your talk page. FK0071a 20:42, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] reliability

You cannot just dump material from the James Twining site here. As likely as not, Twining got his information from Wikipedia earlier (it's not like he's into citing his sources). Regarding non-political use in modern Odinism, provide a reference for that. Odinic Rite is a neopagan organization that leans to the extreme right and has clear fascist overtones. It cannot be disputed that the symbol is in use in "Odinism", however, its use seems to be restricted to those factions that hold obvious sympathy for Nazi mysticism. Show us an example of use by a neopagan organization that clearly distances itself from racist or fascist currents. Otherwise, we'll just have to say that the symbol remains in use among the extreme right, both inside and outside of neopagan circles. dab (𒁳) 11:32, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

If this is in reference to my previous notions, I will state that I agree with you regarding the Odinic Rite, at least in imagery. However, usage of the symbol by artists I added to this is generally apolitical as these artists generally take no political stance. As for the James Twining thing, I assume you're referring to someone else. :bloodofox: 12:22, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

yes, I was addressing FK0071a (talk · contribs), check recent history. The symbol's use in popular culture is a consequence of its Nazi aura, that's what makes it interesting. The symbol has no signification for historical paganism, and while it is perfectly understandable that neopagan groups want to reclaim actual historical symbols from their Nazi connotations, such as the runes, this doesn't apply here at all. Neopagans that are just into historical polytheism and do not care about Nazi occultism and von Listian mysticism have no stakes here at all. dab (𒁳) 12:48, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree. :bloodofox: 12:57, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

FK, can you stop adding the geocities "Irminenschaft" link as "reference"? This is a confused writeup by confused mysticists, and nothing like a serious source. They do quote reasonable sources, and we can take such quotes from them, but it remains some random geocities page found on the internets. dab (𒁳) 09:29, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

No problem, but I think you are wrong to basically call anyone that writes something on a subject like this that isn't a "scholer" and doesn't want to pay for a website a "confused mysticist". I think they are in a better position to understand the esoteric significance rather than a so called 'scholar'. You're too bright for that Dab. For example, that article is far better esoterically than anything Goodrick-Clarke has written. They are in a better position for this interpretation. Clarke, biographically, is better (not sure if that makes sense, I hope so). FK0071a 09:33, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

the article may have some qualities, but any article concluded with "hail the völk!" leaves a shoddy impression (indicating the author not only doesn't know German, but was too lazy to consult a dictionary, and doesn't even try to hide his fascist affinities). We can treat the article as a "primary source", that is, a contemporary mysticist's outlook, but we cannot treat it as a WP:RS. dab (𒁳) 09:45, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

You may be surprised, but I agree fully with what you say on the article. However, I do not agree with calling someone facist simply because they are proud of their people and heritage. That's akin to calling someone a Nazi today simpley because they have an affinity for their own people. Seems that every other culture is allowed to do this, even encouraged to do this, other than Europeans.Shint - very open that it is for their own people and is a religion born of the blood but they are not referred to as Nazi's or Facists. Dab, I agree with what you say and think you are extremily intelligent with the way to redo think I enter, I greatly appreciate this and respect that you take opinions on board, it's great to see but remarks like that from you surprise me. FK0071a 10:16, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

you may, likewise, be surprised, but I agree, too. being "proud of one's heritage" in the sense of patriotism is nothing bad per se. But there is a reason we have separate articles on patriotism and ethnic nationalism (in the German case, völkisch movement). Or, in the context of neopaganism (you don't need to be pagan to be a patriot), "militant racist" vs. "folkish" (nationalist or supremacist) vs. "tribalist" ("ethnic") vs. "eclectic" (syncretic), see also Germanic_neopaganism#Factions. There is no reason to even talk about Armanen runes or the Black Sun if you are merely proud of your Germanic or German heritage, because the concepts are a the creation of occultist authors and not part of any "heritage". Even from the pov of a "folkish" position verging on supremacism, there is no reason to even look at von List. Usage of the "Black Sun" is really the shibboleth that separates the militant racist and crackpot occultist currents from the merely "ethnic" or "tribalist" ones. Any Geramanic heathen that cares two cents about consciously distancing themselves from Nazi ideology need only dump von-Listian cruft like the Black Sun into the dustbin, without needing to compromise about honouring their actual historical heritage. Since there still are strong Neo-Nazi and fascist undercurrents in the Germanic neopagan scene, right now in AD 2006, it is not superfluous to do this, and a simple show of good faith. You do not need to hysterically declare your clean slate in every other paragraph, like some German gropus still feel compelled to do (the German scene is not healthy in this respect in my opinion, but they are at least in part growing out of it), but in my oponion any honourable neopagan group can put at least a short disclaimer "fascists not welcome" on their website. dab (𒁳) 10:37, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

I expected more from you than to bandy around a word like fascist Dab. The OR constantly strives to keep politics out of the organisation and even expelled a group of people who were attempting to make it more political. We have members who have a wide range of political views which the OR will not interfere with. We work with many governmental and NGO's in many area. Do you think they would deal with a fascist group? You should take more care with your words and consider the consequences that such labels could have on a group. It may have escaped your notice that the OR uses the EGF, not Armanen runes, there is no mention of von List on the OR site, no Black Sun and in fact the symbol has only rarely been used as decoration for articles/books etc and not for many years afaik. Why should we state "fascists not welcome"? What about communists? How about liberals? They are all political viewpoints and the OR states that it is NOT a political group and a members political views are their own, in fact the political affiliations, if any, of our members is usually completely unknown. We believe in individual freedoms and the right for people to make their own choices and accept the consequences of those. Not a very fascist position.--Hengest 19:05, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Black Sun Rising company & Wikipedia article

I dropped user 198.53.90.47 a message on his IP address talk page about him vandalising this article by removing references to the image being used as a company logo] without leaving a note as to why. (see his edit here.) The message I left for his was "i assume you are Tim by your IP address. If you are going to remove information please discuss it in the articles talk page first." The below was his response. Please can this be discussed. FK0071a 18:08, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

I do appeciate myself or my business being mentioned in this article. I am requesting that this reference be removed. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 198.53.90.47 (talk • contribs) 17:30, 14 December 2006.

Tim, is it because this article seems to link the image too closely with that of Nazi mysticism and you don't like your company, Black Sun Rising [2], being associated with it? If that is the reason I perfectly understand and agree why you have made this edit. However, maybe if this is the case you can contribute to the article providing information as to the fact that it "may also be used in occult currents of Odinism without necessarily implying involvement with Nazism." ? I found a Heathens against Hate website proclaiming the reclaimation of this symbol and the Swastika and Fylfot so I linked it to the article and have added a lot of information to try and give the viewpoint to that of disassociating the image from Nazism, including ancient articacts, a contemporary Armanist viewpoint link [3], scholerly references, information on the Bismark monument using the image, etc. You and your company are not Neo-Nazi's and nor are the Odinic Rite - maybe you can both contribute mayking this statement by adding information and your thoughts to even out the article? FK0071a 18:19, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

"Tim, is it because this article seems to link the image too closely with that of Nazi mysticism and you don't like your company, Black Sun Rising [4], being associated with it?" This is exactly why I do not want myself or this company mentioned. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 198.53.90.47 (talk • contribs) 19:37, December 14, 2006.

Fair enough Tim, but like I say, rather than just remove the reference and if that is the reason I perfectly understand and agree why you have made this edit. However, maybe if this is the case you can contribute to the article providing information as to the fact that it "may also be used in occult currents of Odinism without necessarily implying involvement with Nazism." ? I found a Heathens against Hate website proclaiming the reclaimation of this symbol and the Swastika and Fylfot so I linked it to the article and have added a lot of information to try and give the viewpoint to that of disassociating the image from Nazism, including ancient articacts, a contemporary Armanist viewpoint link [5], scholerly references, information on the Bismark monument using the image, etc. You and your company are not Neo-Nazi's and nor are the Odinic Rite - maybe you can both contribute mayking this statement by adding information and your thoughts to even out the article? FK0071a 20:09, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

This hasn't been answered at all. So, in regard ot this and the fact that the article in general now is more balanced with archaeological findings and a more equal non-Nazi slant I have added it back in. FK0071a 16:38, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Removed name of company co-owner and his religious group affiliation as it is completely irrelevant. BSR is not owned by one person and is not an OR business. Also removed references to publications as they contain images of archaeological finds and not the black sun of this article, save for a couple of instances. Are you going to list every instance of the sunwheel or fylfot or individual runes in OR publications? Also seems a bit pointless to list publications as references which are not available to the public.--Hengest 18:48, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Fair enough, I just thought it would be ok as I strongly pointed out these were not racist. I think your point above is valid and your corrections perfectly fine. FK0071a 09:55, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

this article being on the "occult symbol" itself, and not just on its role in Nazi mysticism, it would be perfectly fair to mention any notable publication that features the symbol. What was removed was't that terribly notable however, and I do not have an opinion here. It will not do to repeat the "non-racist non political" mantra every time Odinic Rite is mentioned; the group is clearly folkish and as such far from politically neutral. It also stands to reason that by employing a symbol that is notable for the Nazis' interest in it, and not as a historical pagan symbol, they do put themselves in a Nazi mysticist context (that is, the authors of the individual publications; their affiliation to a larger group is, as Hengest notes, irrelevant as long as they do not appear as spokesperson for the group). dab (𒁳) 12:08, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Defective symbol and Name

The symbol of the "black sun" that is shown in the article is not conform with the floor-mosaic in the north-tower of Wewelsburg castle:

- the proportions are wrong. In particular the distances of the circles towards each other;

- the disc in the middle of the foor-mosaic in which the twelve rays run together is completely missing in the shown symbols;

- at the original the middle-areas of the twelve rays (where they are 90° angled) are running on an thought circular arc. In the shown symbols those areas are straight-line;

- the colour of the original is green and not black;

- in the link-list at the end of the article I already added a photo of the original symbol. Here is the link once more.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.133.9.253 (talk) 18:49, 7 January 2007 (UTC).

edited article now, I think it is coming along now with facts rather than fiction. FK0071a 08:44, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Thank You! Here is a possible explanation, why the ornament is called "black sun" at all: The room of the hall of pillars itself (where the ornament takes place) is normally closed for visitors but you can watch inside the room from outside through a gate. From the other side of the room lots of light shines through the windows and reflects on the marmoreal floor. On the photos I personally took from the ornament, it appears black, because of the bad visibility conditions. That COULD be an answer, why the ornament in general is called the "black sun". Greetings from Germany —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.133.21.98 (talk) 16:50, 13 January 2007 (UTC).

That is an interesting explanation. Also, I have today watched the Schwarze Sonne documentary by Rüdiger Sünner which states that the name 'Schwarze Sonne/Black Sun' was 'maybe possibly' given by Neo-Nazis. He admits that it is speculation. Just thought I would add this. In 1 day I will give DVD transcript of this commetns and his books comments on this. Robert C Prenic 11:42, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Who placed the ornament in the Obergruppenführersaal?

The wikipedia-article says, that it is not known if the ornament was placed before or after 1934 in the Hall of pillars (a source is given).

But this german article gives the strong impression, that ornament was placed in the room during the general modification of the castle since 1934. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.133.5.230 (talk) 21:20, 9 January 2007 (UTC).

It is likely that it was put in the castle by the Nazi's, but, whatever anyone says, their is NO definitive proof, only speculation. Even in the book sold by the Wewelsburg museum (Wewelsburg 1933 bis 1945. Kult-und-Terrorstätte der SS. Eine Dokumentation (Schriftenreihe des Kreismuseums Wewelsburg 1), 2nd Edition Paderborn 1987. by Karl Hüser and translated into English in 2000 by Robin Benson make no mention of who put it their because the plans for the North Tower by SS arcitect Hermann Bartels make NO mention of it. I have copies of the plans, I contacted the museum, I contacted Rüdiger Sünner and Nicholas Goodrick-Clarke and they agree that their is NO proof. In fact, scholers today are reluctant to say with any certainty who and why it was put their. Their is evidence (speculation) for both arguments but at the end of the day their is no fact. I have tried to add this into the article in an unbiased manner. FK0071a 22:42, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Added more information and put the article into some sort of order so the "historical" and the "Nazi" related information follow each other, respectfully. FK0071a 23:17, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Looks now better than any lexikon you can buy! One more information this link provides: the Obergruppenführersaal wasn`t 100% finished until 1943 either. This can be seen at a uncarved stonequader over the door to the east-flank.

This link says the following about the creation of the hall of Obergruppenführer: "... the ceilings were casted in concrete and were encased with natural stone." Marmor is a natural stone. I guess that includes that the ornament was added during this period of time of creation of the hall (1934-1943). I think the information given further in the article stresses this: "The motif (of the ornament) is reproduced from bronze brooches (Zierfibeln) from the 7th century." Who else should have reproduced it than the SS?

[edit] Wrong pronounciation

The german pronounciation of Wewelsburg "Vay-Vuls-Burg" is wrong. The second "e" of the word "WewElsburg" is pronounced the same as the first "e" of the word "WEwelsburg". In common parlance the second "e" is swallowed so that a realistic pronounciation sounds more like "Vay-Vls-Burg".

Greetings from Germany —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.133.21.98 (talk) 16:50, 13 January 2007 (UTC).

"Vay-Vls-Burg" is what we mean by "Vay-Vuls-Burg". But these "post-vowel-shift" Anglo pronunciation hints are useless in any case. We should give IPA or let it be. dab (𒁳) 13:49, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Further information about the "Black Sun" and the "Obergruppenführersaal" and Did the original sun wheel look like this?

The german DVD 'Schwarze Sonne (documentary) - Kultorte und Esoterik des III. Reichs' contains under "Extras" a TV-interview with the film-producer. The interview gives the following informations about the "Black Sun" and the "Obergruppenführersaal": - In the past a golden disc was placed in the middle of the dark-green marbled sun-wheel; (Remark from me: I guess it was an impressive effect with the light shining into the room through the surrounding windows.) - the complete tower in which the "Obergruppenführersaal" is, was called by the architects "Center of the world". —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.133.2.149 (talk) 18:32, 19 January 2007 (UTC).

I created a photomontage with a golden disc placed in the middle of the ornamnet. The size of the disk is estimated: in the picture it fits with the inner disk of the mosaic:Photomontage Greetings from Germany —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.133.29.161 (talk) 04:13, 22 January 2007 (UTC).

Yes, possibly as here you will find a replica of Zierscheiben with a gold disk. I have that Schwarze Sonne (documentary) and everything has English subtitles apart from the interview! Robert C Prenic 20:34, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

In the interview at 4 minutes and 22 seconds playing time R. Sünner says "In der Mitte dieses dunkelgrün marmorierten Sonnenrades war früher eine goldene Scheibe" ("In the middle of this dark-green marbled sun wheel was former a golden disc.") This information seems reliable to me. So I added it to the article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.133.33.139 (talk) 18:40, 23 January 2007 (UTC).

Was this gold disk in a Zierscheiben brooch or at Wewelsburg? If it was a Wewelsburg (as toy shows here) then where is the evidence? In the Schwarze Sonne (documentary), Rüdiger Sünner does NOT give ANY evidence of this other than in his interview interview. Also, the Wewelsburg mseum does not give any evidence? If there was a gold disk like this then where is it now? Robert C Prenic 18:51, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

In the TV-interview he explicitly states that there was a golden disk in the middle of the Wewelsburg-ornament. He talks about the Wewelsburg-ornament and not about any brooch. I personally have doubts about all those postwar mystic theories about a black "anti-sun". (Why is the ornament green and not black?) The institute "Ancestral Heritage" (Ahnenerbe) was seeking for a germanic primordial religion and they had the opinion that - if such a religion really ever existed - in this religion a sun-cult was an important matter. When you see the Wewelsburg as the religious center of the SS (and what they did was trying to revive old pagan cults) in my opinion they simply placed a sun-symbolism as ornament at this central point of this building. A golden disc in its middle would affirm this. As far as I know the Wewelsburg was looted shortly before the end of the war. This could be an answer to your last question. I think the film of Sünner is good investigated and IS a reliable source. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.133.45.237 (talk) 18:18, 24 January 2007 (UTC).

The SS had no interest in reviving any so-called "old pagan cults".. :bloodofox: 18:39, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Are You sure? What about the solstice-festivals and the rune-mysticism? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.133.45.237 (talk) 19:18, 24 January 2007 (UTC).

Please see here, Guido von List and Karl Maria Wiligut for detailed information regarding the form of Christianity dressed in vague Germanic pagan imagery and personal prophets the SS promoted. :bloodofox: 02:26, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes, the documentary is an ancellent source for information and he gives academic references for all of the stuff in it. But, he does NOT give any evidence for the gold disk theory, no matter how reasonable it may or may not seem, this is speculation. As for the SS, it was primarily Himmler and his closest comrades that wanted to revive (but also mix and match) cult worship - this is not exactly a revival of "old pagan cults" but "bits and bobs" (I do not know what that would be in German). Yes, the SS and Himmler did a deal for archaeology and interest in Germanic traditions but also a great deal of disaster. The Most Honourably Great Sir Dr. Robert C Prenic the 3rd, all Adademic Degrees. 22:23, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

I admit, I was too fast in changing the article; indeed the DVD-interview is no proof. What about adding a sentence like this?:

Possibly in the middle of the mosaic was former a golden disc. Source: DVD Schwarze Sonne (documentary) - Kultorte und Esoterik des III. Reichs unter "Extras" - TV-interview with the film-producer (this source's reliability needs verification).

At the end of this article a "plate of pure gold in the axis of the sun wheel" is mentioned.

[edit] Speculative statements about the "vaul" should be removed in the article

The actual article says: "the cellars were to be converted into a consecration room for dead SS leaders after the model of Mycenaean domed tombs"

This link gives different informations:

1) there are no informations about former cellars in the north-tower but about a former cistern which was removed;

2) at the walls are twelve pedestals, over them were wall-niches. The use of theses niches can`t be clarified finally until today. So it stays speculation, if urns of deceased SS-leaders should be stored there. There is no proof for this.

3) Architecture, denomination as "vaul" and the special light-symbolic, e.g. the fall in of light and the fire-bowl, let draw the conclusion that the room should be used for some kind of commemoration of dead. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.133.48.222 (talk) 14:14, 17 March 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:BlackOrderJamesRollins.jpg

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[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:SchwarzeSonneDocumentary.jpg

Image:SchwarzeSonneDocumentary.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.