Talk:Black Sabbath/Archive 2

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Archive This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.


Contents

Guitar Tuning Detail

I've seen discussions above that state Iommi used Drop-D tunings or wondering which album were in C# tuning. Well, first of all I am quite acquainted with a lot of their songs and obscure albums, and I have I yet to see one of them use drop-d. Led Zeppelin, however, did use it on the song Going To California from 1974's Led Zeppelin IV and DADGAD earlier on (called D Modal, which is basically a Drop-D tuning with additional changes to the two highest-pitched strings), for the songs Black Mountain Side on their first release, and Kashmir on 1975's Physical Grafitti.

Getting back to Black Sabbath, unless I'm wrong they stick to the same tuning for a whole album. They use four main tunings; Standard and three tunings based around it by lowering all strings by equal steps. How much it influenced later bands is a subject of debate, but Power Metal often tunes Down Half A Step, while Death Metal's common tuning is One Step Down. Some bands also use One And A Half Step Down but its a lot less common. The tunings from thickest string to thinnest are:

Standard tuning E,A,D,G,B,e

One and a half step down C#,F#,B,E,G#,C# (or Db,Gb,B,E,Ab,Db)

Half a step down Eb,Ab,Db,Gb,Bb,eb (or D#,G#,C#,F#,A#,D#)

One step down D,G,C,F,A,D

As to which album uses which here's a full list of what is the most likely tunings and though there could be exceptions, those I was unsure about are noted with an asterisk (example: E,A,D,G,B,e * ).

And bass also follows the same tunings, except only for 4 strings, and one octave lower than the guitar. Hope this clears things up if someone edits the section of the article that discusses their tunings. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.167.124.36 (talk) 23:56, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Trivia

Removed trivia section, no sources and against guidelines.


 Trivia sections are discouraged under Wikipedia guidelines.
The article could be improved by integrating relevant items and removing inappropriate ones.
  • After repeatedly being passed over by the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame since becoming eligible in 1995, Ozzy Osbourne famously demanded that Black Sabbath be removed from consideration for the institution. In 1999, Osbourne said after Black Sabbath was passed over their second year of eligibility, "Just take our name off the list. Save the ink." His basis for this position was that because the fans did not select the members, it was "totally irrelevant". The Rock & Roll Hall of Fame ignored this request and Black Sabbath was finally inducted by Metallica members James Hetfield and Lars Ulrich on March 13, 2006.
  • The cover of the 1970 "Paranoid" album was designed for the title "War Pigs" but the band was forced to change the original title as Black Sabbath's record company feared a backlash by supporters of the Vietnam War.
  • According to an interview from "Total Rock Review: Black Sabbath", Tony Iommi claimed to be the first musician to use light gauge strings on an electric guitar. At that time, light gauge strings were not available, so Iommi took some strings from a banjo, readjusted them, and put them on his electric guitar. The strings were easy to bend and put less strain on his two tender fingers.
  • According to an interview from "Total Rock Review: Black Sabbath", Tony Iommi suggested that the reason for the commercial failure of the Technical Ecstasy album was due to the fact that he was too "over the top" on the production side when recording the record.
  • In a Simpsons episode, Nelson has a song he made featuring Black Sabbath's Iron Man in which he sings " I am Iron Man doo doo doo doo doo doo doo vote for me." The rock loving school bus driver Otto has been known to hum Iron Man.
  • In a recent interview Osbourne stated that before Black Sabbath stop touring, he would "absolutely love to play in Japan, because in all the years we've been together the original four members have never made it over there".
  • Characters based on Ozzy Osbourne, Tony Iommi and Ronnie James Dio (Team Sabbath) appear in the anime Shaman King, episode 48, with allusions to the songs "War Pigs" and "Iron Man".
  • Part of the reason for the departure of Ronnie James Dio after the release of the Live Evil album was because neither he nor Tony Iommi and Geezer Butler trusted the other over the mixing of the album. Although conflicting versions of the events surrounding the mixing of said album exist, the "folk story" basically claims that Dio (and sometimes, depending of the source, Appice) sneaked into the studio at night to raise his vocals. The story has been told and re-told countless times by many people, (including the band members), making it almost impossible to determine its accuracy.
  • "Seventh Star" was originally a Tony Iommi solo record but the record company convinced him to release it as a Black Sabbath record so he could play at bigger venues on the upcoming tour.
  • The day that Tony Iommi had his two finger tips cut off was on his last day of work before turning professional as a guitar player.
  • The song "Iron Man" is featured on the theatrical trailer for the 2008 movie Iron Man, based upon the popular Marvel Comics character.


Thank you,
Skeeker [Talk] 20:02, 9 December 2007 (UTC)


Also removed solo project section:

Band members' solo projects

One of the reasons why the band has yet to release any albums since their 1997 reunion is their various other activities, most obviously singer Osbourne's. Osbourne released a compilation in 1997, an album in 2001, a live album in 2002, a compilation in 2003, an anthology in 2005 and an album in 2007. He also released a covers album in 2005, though most of these new songs were on his 2005 anthology released shortly before.

Tony Iommi released his first solo album in 2000, Iommi. It had taken nearly 5 years. He released the 1996 recording sessions for the album in 2004 under the name The DEP sessions with singer Glenn Hughes, and another album, Fused in 2005 (work on this began in 2003). Geezer Butler's band G/Z/R finally released an album (1995's Plastic Planet). Iommi featured both Bill Ward and Osbourne as guest musicians. Bill Ward's only release since the reunion has been a single, 2003's Straws and an internet download, 'The Dark Hour'. His interest in music has always been focused on Sabbath, with all his motivation following the band.

In late September 2006, Spain-based webzine Rafabasa reported that Tony Iommi, Geezer Butler and Bill Ward would reunite with Ronnie James Dio for a tour of festivals in the summer of 2007 in support of the pending release Black Sabbath: The Dio Years which includes the past recordings and three new Black Sabbath songs written by Iommi and Dio: "The Devil Cried" (also released as a single), "Shadow of the Wind," and "Ear in the Wall." Ward eventually decided not be involved in the project, with Vinny Appice joining the project instead (which makes this the second reunion of the classic Mob Rules/Live Evil/Dehumanizer version of Black Sabbath). A live album from the band's 1981 tour was also released - Live at Hammersmith Odeon. This CD was limited to 5000 pieces and sold out almost immediately. Apart from these releases, a tour has begun by the lineup. See paragraph on Heaven and Hell lower down the page. These releases mark the band's first since the Reunion album, making the band's total number of newly released songs since the Forbidden album.

Skeletor2112 (talk) 11:07, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Proposed Remake of the Page

Maybe... and this is just an idea of mine... we could split the page into 4 different parts: 1. the Ozzy era, 2. the Dio era, and 3. the rotating membership era, return of Dio, and then continuing the rotating membership era. Because essentially, it was a different band every single time with completely new members except for Tony Iommi. We could have these 4 different parts, but still have them on the same page, get it? If anyone would like to help me out, then please share your ideas. Dark Executioner (talk) 15:47, 11 December 2007 (UTC)Dark Executioner

Chronological order is a more encyclopedic format for this (and any other) article. Brief and referenced. An encyclopedia article has to assume the reader has no previous knowledge of the article subject. This article has way too many history subsections. (9 right now) + 3 other sections that are completely useless (and horribly written to boot) It should be trimmed down to 4 or 5 sections. Breaking it up by band member eras makes sense to anyone familiar with the band. But to gleen out all the cruft and avoid having the page end up looking like an amateur fansite page (look at Van Halen for a good example of fanboy overkill)... this page could be split simply by decade... with a little overlap between "lead vocalist eras" to try and keep things simple and concise. The article has some extremely poorly written (and useless) sub-sections in it that should be turfed all together (See: the "Band members solo projects", "Lineup reunions" and Individual Black Sabbath member reunions: for examples of How not to write a good encyclopedia article ) Those three sections regurgitate info that's already in the article... and info detailed much better in other Wikipedia articles relating to the band. If anyone wants to try and improve this article they need to start chunking out the "14 year old junior high school book report" fluff and cruft and just get the facts ordered in as chronological an order as can be done for a band with such a long history with a lot of background soap operas that shouldn't be detailed unless they have some pretty decent citations. 156.34.142.110 (talk) 16:25, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

My idea was to do like the page for Freak on a Leash, where it is still the same article, but if you type in Freak on a Leash (Acoustic), it takes you there. (actually click on that link so that you see what I'm talking about. If we did the same thing with this Sab page, we could for example type in Black Sabbath (Dio Era) or Black Sabbath (Ozzy Era) and it would take you straight to that sub-section. Yes, some stuff could be omitted, but I think that this plan would make the page much more efficient and organized. Dark Executioner (talk) 15:56, 12 December 2007 (UTC)Dark Executioner

Doom Metal

This band single-handedly created the genre with their earliest albums. Yet, every time I check back on this page, it is removed. Why? They didn't stay doom metal, but they started out as, and pioneered, the genre. So please, leave the genre alone. Dark Executioner (talk) 22:22, 23 December 2007 (UTC)Dark Executioner

I think it should stay, but really when it comes down to it Sabbath created metal, therefor every sub-genre of it.
Thank you,
Burningclean [Speak the truth!] 22:44, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
They influenced the doom style. But they didn;t play doom metal. Playing doom metal... and simply playing heavy metal slow are 2 totally different things. And they didn't play doom metal. They just played heavy metal slowly. Paganini was a huge influence on neo-classical metal.... but he never played it. Hank Williams Sr was a huge influence on rock and roll... almost to the point where, without him... rock and roll (and subsequently hard rock and then heavy metal) wouldn't have existed without him... but he never actually played anything even remotely close to rock and roll. Robert Johnson was a tremendously influencial blues musician without who, like Williams, heavy blues, hard rock and heavy metal would not exist... and he never played anything remotely close to the musical style he would come to be a major influence of. It's similar situation to power metal. Power metal wouldn't exist without the influence of Judas Priest, Iron Maiden and Dio. But JP, IM and Dio are not power metal bands in any way, shape or form and that genre doesn't apply to any of them. Black Sabbath, along with several other British and North American bands pioneered heavy metal and all it sub-genres. But the only style that applies to them is still just plain ol' heavy metal. 156.34.222.133 (talk) 00:04, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Alright, well your arguments make sense. I'll leave well enough alone.68.211.95.197 (talk) 19:15, 24 December 2007 (UTC)Dark Executioner

Wrong. Master of Reality was very much doom metal. If Sabbath was never doom metal, then neither was Candlemass and that's just a silly thing to suggest. 76.121.91.3 (talk) 03:36, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

They are an influence. But there is a difference between 'doom metal' and 'playing heavy metal very slowly'. The term doesn't apply here. 156.34.226.160 (talk) 04:07, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
Exactly - Sabbath had doomy stuff, but they also had stuff like Paranoid, Symptom of the Universe, or Neon Nights or somthing - Candlemass is doom metal for sure, but Sabbath I think would fall under general "heavy metal" more - although like Burningclean said, they invented it all, IMO anyway. If you wanted to get technical, you could put heavy blues (first album), rock, hard rock, metal, doom metal, even progressive for the later Ozzy stuff. Heavy metal covers all of that, I think... \m/ Skeletor2112 (talk) 06:27, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
Also, the guideline for the genre field in the infobox says 'aim for generality' ... not 'strive for superfluity'. As said above... heavy metal covers it all. 156.34.226.160 (talk) 11:12, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

the band themselves always stated themselves as hard rock do you think i should ut that in.Zakkman (talk) 20:33, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

No. What the band says their music is doesn't make it true. If Cannibal Corpse started calling their music Norse folk or if Simple Plan started calling their music NSBM, would that make it so? 76.121.91.3 (talk) 18:59, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

But come on Hard rock and heavy metal are essentially the same thing.Zakkman (talk) 23:35, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

No, Zakkman, they're not. Your contribution is completely redundant, if you're not able to tell the difference, then, please, don't get on our nerves with you silly coments. i think, if black sabbath isn't doom metal, then the wikipedia article about some of their albums shouldn't say so either. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.5.155.191 (talk) 19:17, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Lineup Instability

The section ought to be extended for WAAAAAAAAY longer than 1987, Sabheads! Their personnel was far beyond stable in 1987. In fact, the section shouldn't end until the reunion w/Ozzy in 1997. Every year until that point, Sab had a different member in some way, shape or form. Maybe have "Lineup Instability" as the main header and all the info from 1987-97 as sub-headers. That would make more sense not only to fans of the band eager to learn about their "less-than-glory" days, but also to people just researching the band. When they see that the "Lineup Instability" section ends in 1987, some people would think that the problem was gone, when in fact it didn't end until at least a decade later. I'm just trying to think of ways to make this article as informative, yet as truthful, as possible. Dark Executioner (talk) 19:16, 24 December 2007 (UTC)Dark Executioner

Fair use rationale for Image:Black Sabbath Logo.png

Image:Black Sabbath Logo.png is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page. If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 05:52, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

fixed. Balthazar (talk) 23:21, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

1968-present?

The band broke up in 1999. They officially announced The Last Supper as their last gig, and that everything was over. When the band did Ozzfest 2001 they called it a reformation (an attempt at a new album being the excuse this time, which resulted in Scary Dreams being in the 2001 setlist), and in recent interviews the band have talked about 2008 and the possibility of Black Sabbath "reforming". Black Sabbath also broke up in mid-1984-1985. The band officially did not exist, Tony Iommi was the only member (hence the 1985 Live Aid reunion being achievable) and was making a solo album which had to be renamed Black Sabbath. Someone edited out my changes a while back, it should say the following: 1968-1884
1985
1985-1999
2001
2004
2005

Those are the band's dates of activity. I'll accept since the gaps were short, perhaps changing it to 1968-1999, 2001, 2004-2005, but we really can't claim the band existed in 2000 or 2002-2003.(The Elfoid (talk) 15:20, 6 January 2008 (UTC))

That kind of superfluous detailing is just a useless waste of space in an infobox. Being inactive and being officially disbanded are two completely different things. Their periods of inactivity are detailed in the main article content... where it should be. ASSuming that they were officially disbanded, without valid citation(=statements from the band) is original research. 156.34.212.152 (talk) 15:32, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

They are a bit hard to prove, and also somewhat vague - after the 99 tour ended, the reformations just kinda happened. They weren't a band technically, but tours...happened. The 99 shows were definitely a disbandment though. (The Elfoid (talk) 23:48, 6 January 2008 (UTC))


I don't think it is 100% correct to say that Butler and Iommi are the current lineup, they are officially in Heaven and Hell and are recording at the moment, I don't think it'd be right to say they are the present lineup. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.69.84.92 (talk) 00:17, 5 February 2008 (UTC)