Talk:Black Pope

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[edit] Debate: Merge Black Pope into Superior General of the Society of Jesus

Merge: This debate has apparently gone by the wayside for many months now. I reopen the debate on this topic by casting my official vote in favor of merging the article. This nickname for the Superior General is not only obscure, it is also quite minor. While some may argue that it is somehow clever, it does not deserve its own article. All those opposed or in favor of this proposal should cast an official vote as well. --TheTriumvir 17:58, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Past Discussion of Proposed Merger

It is important for the standard browser of the encyclopedia to know of this relation immediatly. Otherwise crackpots would be concuting conspiracy theories when they come accross the term "Black Pope" because it does seem to have a dark and diabolical connotation.

Since the term is just a nickname for the Superior General, this page is superfluous. A redirect to that page and longer explaination of the term would be useful. --Miked84 02:00, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

I created the article because I came across the reference in The Times mentioned above (which was neutral-pointing-out-the-nickname: a quick Google throws up "a number" of references, mostly "weird and wonderful" (being somewhat polite). I have no objection to the article being included in the Jesuit one with a redirect. There could also be a reference to the conspiracy theory article.

Jackiespeel 18:23, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

A certain number of the websites dealing with the term relate to the more weird and wonderful end of the conspiracy spectrum, and another group - rational in tone - refer to the possibility of a pope from Africa.

Jackiespeel 17:23, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Since it's a long-standing nickname for the Superior General, it seems only logical to merge it into that article, with a redirect and even additional information. akendall(talk) 22:39, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

As the term is used in a specific sense, I would keep it separate with cross references - and make a mention on this article that some of the websites are "slightly over the top." Would it be a dicdef perhaps? (I am willing to accept suggestions.)

Jackiespeel 22:31, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

I think it ought to be merged. It could be its own section of the Superior General article, maybe, but a nickname for the subject of an article should not, itself, be an article.--Coemgenus 01:24, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Using the "top two pages of web browser searches" test, and the secondary meaning of the term alluded to in the text, keep this article separate with due cross references.

That said, this is probably as far as this article is likely to develop (without someone writing a somewhat POV rebuttal of the "weird and wonderful" end of the market). There is just enough reason to keep the BP article separate from the Society of Jesuits webpage.

Jackiespeel 18:13, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Of course it should be merged. It's just their nickname. This page will either be a permanent stub or repeticious with the content there. Merge it. savidan(talk) (e@) 15:49, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

The concept of "Black Pope" has a specific connotation that is unknown to most people and needs to stay separate from the Society of Jesus, because it will alert people to the real possibility of nongovernmental interference from behind the scenes. Keeping it separate means that people will be able to explore the conspiracy theories and decide for themselves.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Serenergy (talk • contribs) 21:58, October 28, 2006

[edit] Further Past Debate

I came across the term in The Times on the near-simutaneous deaths of Benedict XIV and the head of the Jesuits in August 1914.

Jackiespeel 16:12, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Hmm.. I've hard to belive that "black" in "black pope" refers to the jesuits black cassocks; because black is the colour of the whole roman-catholic priesthood. And further; the reason why the jesuits are black, are therefore they have no "order-dress" themselvs, they are just dressed like an ordinary catholic priest.

It may have other conotations associated with it, but it seems reasonable. The Jesuits were the first order to adopt secular clerical dress. --Miked84 03:07, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

I think it is but natural to join 'Black Pope' to 'Superior General of Society of Jesus'. Even Jesuits accept the fact that their superiors were known as 'Black Popes' once upon a time. It is not an insult, but rather a hint at the extreme influence the superior helt in the matters of Rome. - Tilj

I support a merger as well. —Lowellian (reply) 14:57, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Merge tally

Here is a tally of merger positions, based on comments on this talk page:

In favor of merger

  1. User:Akendall
  2. User:Coemgenus
  3. User:Savidan
  4. User:TheTriumvir
  5. User:Lowellian

Opposed to merger

  1. User:Jackiespeel
  2. User:Serenergy (Note: only 3 edits as of November 10, 2006, all to this article)
  3. User:Reginald Benbow (Note: Only 8 edits as of November 10, 2006)
  4. User:Tilput (Note: Only 1 edit as of November 10, 2006, that edit being to this talk page)

Not counting statements by user accounts that seem to have been created primarily to oppose the merger, there is a clear consensus (5-1) for merger with Superior General of the Society of Jesus, and I have implemented the merge. —Lowellian (reply) 15:07, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Black

Wouldn't it be more appropriate to use a picture of him in his black garments, as that is the reason for the title "black pope"? Tim Long 00:13, 13 December 2006 (UTC)