Talk:Black Panther Party

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[edit] Archived discussion

[edit] Re: Horowitz

The argument for giving horowitz space here is that he did closely work with members of the BPP in the mid 70s and appears to have some firsthand knowledge of the events in question. this is what makes his criticism different from a lot of the hysterical and fantastic denunciations of the party. since the article he wrote is cited, people have the capability to decide for themselves whether or not his allegations have any merit.


—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.70.248.38 (talk) 18:19, 10 April 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Horowitz

i know others have said this before but the Horowitz rant is way too long and way too irreverent. there were and are plenty of criticisms of the BPP from prominent intellectuals and political and social figures and i don’t see why some obscure authoritarian leftist turned authoritarian rightist should get an entire paragraph in an encyclopedia article. Horowitz is a poor scholar and demagogue and no one outside his ideological niche takes him seriously. At least move it into a criticism section; a "political support" section should include just that not remarks about BP running drug and prostitute rackets with a article link in which Horowitz compares the activities of the BP with among other things Stalins "Katyn massacre."

Bloop bloop bloop. Your wish is my command. - N1h1l 00:12, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] police openly involved in KKK statement

The statement about police in the south openly involved in the KKK has been tagged as needing a citation for a while. I've poked around, and I can't find anything that really fits. Most of the reports about police being openly Klan are from the 1920s or before. Someone recently added a few more book references, and I'm hoping that we can get this cited sooner than later. I think that if we can't, a statement like this might be better taken out until a citation does turn up. Smmurphy(Talk) 04:05, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Black Panther Party was Maoist NOT Democratic Socialist

Democratic Socialists advocated socialism through reform. The Black Panthers advocated Revolution. Democratic Socialists are usually peaceful, however the Black Panthers are famous for having marched around with loaded weapons. Also, the BPP sold Quotations from Mao Tse-tung in order to raise money to buy shotguns. They then made the Quotations mandatory party reading. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.174.121.248 (talk) 18:32, 14 April 2007 (UTC).

The main leadership of the BPP was Socialist, but it turned Maoist due to COINTELPRO interference - leaders being thrown in jail. To be revolutionary does not mean that you are Maoist. Also, people have a right to bear arms in the USA, and they were merely rtaining their right to do so. (NathanD 016 (talk) 17:21, 24 January 2008 (UTC))

The BPP was Maoist from the start. It remained a mix between Maoism and Democratic Socialism through out its existence. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Stripe66506 (talk • contribs) 20:54, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV

I quite agree that this article seems to be in promotion of the Black Panthers. I had read the opening line of the article on the Nazi Party, which was as follows: "The Nazi Party (German: Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei, or NSDAP), English: National Socialist German Workers' Party), was a far-right, racist political party in Germany between 1920 and 1945." Now, to me, looking up the Black Panthers seemed like a good comparison, if the Nazi Party was racist then surely this would be under the Black Panthers. Instead, I read this article to some avail that the Black Panthers were just like Martin Luther King Jr, peaceful and using "self defense". Now keep in mind that "black nationalism" (one of the points of the black panthers) should be equated to "white power", but it is not. Even then, "white power" is a neonazi term, having nothing to do with the original party itself. Therefore I propose that if the word "racist" is to remain in the article Nazi Party, then the word "racist" should be inserted into Black Panther Party. Zchris87v 03:39, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

There are already a couple mentions of critics of the group, and descriptions of the groups activities that were illegal or (possibly?) immoral in the article. If you have some good information cited by a reliable source (no blogs, please), feel free to add them or bring them up here on talk. Smmurphy(Talk) 21:03, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
  • The Black Panther Party was not a racist group, and is not similar to the Nazis or white power organizations. The Black Panthers were an anti-racist, progressive left-wing group. The Nazis, while borrowing some leftist ideas, were a far-right, reactionary, anti-Semitic and racist party that carried out genocidal policies against innocent people. I suggest you learn more about both groups so you can avoid making more factually-incorrect and slanderous statements.Spylab 10:51, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
Cleaver indicates that, at one point in his life, he viewed the rape of white women as "an insurrectionary act." Well that's not racist. Look, the point is that you cannot say that an entire party is completely not racist. Maybe the ideals weren't, but they had to have had their fair share of racist members. The same goes for the Nazi party, except its leader embraced the ideas. Automatically making all entities racist. As for the Nazi party being "white supremacist"? Keep in mind what "white" you're talking about - not the same "white" that the Black Panthers fought against. If anything, the Nazis were "Aryan supremacists". Look, go ahead and dismiss what I say if you want to, but there comes a certain 'crossing point' in every race battle where the question is if people are fighting against a racist group, or if the group just portrayed that way. There's a thing called "reverse racism", you know, and in striving for "equality" it seems like they may have overshot and led to the racial favoritism that now exists. Zchris87v 19:56, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Anyone who compares the Black Panther Party to the Nazi party, given whatever reasoning is just confused in my honest opinion..Mahmud II 23:47, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

In point of fact, the BPP advocated "all power to the people", which is elaborated upon by Fred Hampton quite famously in the documentary, "The Murder of Fred Hampton": "Black Power to Black people, white power to white people, brown power to brown people, yellow power to yellow people." The Chicago Panthers started the Rainbow Brigade and famously worked with the Young Lords, members of the Appalachian movement, the SDS (and to their regret, the Weathermen). Racists believe in theirs as the superior race; the Panthers advocated self-reliance and were seeking revolution as a means for exercising self determination. To compare them to the Nazi Party is not only insidious and indicates a questionable agenda. None of the BPP's leaders, no matter how megalomaniacal they may have become, advocated the extermination of white people. Further, their agenda wasn't aimed at hating anyone, but rather at empowering people who where at the bottom of the socio-economic rung in their communities, and preyed upon by the police.

To say that the BPP were the equivalence to the Nazi’s really is not a fair comparison. They never (thankfully) gained any real political power and spent most of their time infighting. Like most elements of the New Left the BPP was/is a synthesis of Mao’s lil Red Book, Castro Worship, and revolutionary politics blending Black Nationalism and elements of the NOI. Was the BPP racist, I am not sure … the black nationalism and NOI segments of them most certainly were and many of their members were little more than brown versions of Tom Metzger, but as with anything, find a good source, and for something like this, find many good sources and include it in the article. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 21:18, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

While I'll be the first to say that many Panthers were misguided in some of their actions, I find comparing them to the Nazi party atrocious and bordering on racist. First and foremost, nether black nationalism nor black power are racist philosophies. Certainly there were people with racial prejudice who espoused these philosophies as apart of a black supremacist ideology, but that does not make these philosophies racist. In much the same way that Socialism is not racist despite the Nazi Party being a Socialist party. Black power and black nationalism were born out of desires for a better social standing and self-defense against an unimaginable degree of racially motivated violence. Emmit Till wasn't the only African American to end up in a river for a triviality. The idea behind black power was to encourage people to stand and defend themselves against racism. It was not a call for racial terrorism nor the extermination of whites. Black nationalism was based on the same idea except the idea was why stay where you're not wanted. Black nationalist and black separatist leaders encouraged people to form their own communities and social services for safety, self-respect, and dignity. I notice how no one ever complains about Garvyism or the Back to Africa movement when they complain about Black nationalism. Secondly, I would prefer it if the Black panthers had become a serious, stable political party. It would have been far better than the outcome. There would have never been enough political support locally let alone nationwide to implement any Communist policies. But, I feel that the likeliest outcome would have been that they would have brought a great deal of attention to several social issues, most importantly poverty, and forced more mainstream political parties to address them seriously.

Now that I'm done soapboxing, I sincerely apologize. I also sincerely apologize to anyone who may find my words offensive and I hope that no one will take them personally but instead will see them as an attempt to approach truth and reconciliation over a most troubling time in our history. I will endeavor to recruit someone from WP:AFRO or another relevant wikiproject to make this article and other associated articles accurate and neutral. I ask for your patience and support in the process of repairing this article. CJ 00:09, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Citation needed, and about NPOV

There are still two {{fact}}/citation needed tags left in the article, both in the "Conflict with law enforcement" section. I think if noone has a citation for those sentences (I couldn't find any), it is time we pull them out. In the meantime, please feel free to add {{fact}} anywhere you see something that isn't cited and should be. Also, the NPOV tag may never be removed, but it is worth a try. In my mind, what we need is some sources that criticize or talk about the criticism of the BPP that don't refer to ideologues like Horowitz, but stick to respected analysts. This would allow us to write a better criticism section and to add some balance to the lead. The thing is, so many young scholars have a romantic view of what the BPP was that doing a Google scholar search gives almost entirely positive articles [1]. I suppose that some of the articles talk about some criticisms, but I'm fairly frustrated with looking. If you know of a good article of book that will fit, and don't have time to add the material to the article, let me know. Thanks, Smmurphy(Talk) 07:25, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Anyone that's interested. Try looking for Black people who didn't like the Panthers or the Black power movement. Most people associated with the non-violent movement didn't like their philosophies because they believed very strongly in retaining the moral high ground by not engaging in violence. Basically, A kid getting the crap kicked out of him on national television is far more sympathetic if he's not fighting back. CJ 10:14, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
Ok, Hugh Pearson has a book, The Shadow of the Panther: Huey Newton and the Price of Black Power in America, that fits the bill. It seems like it was a bit controversial, concentrated on the BPP's thuggary, but that Pearson was respected and the work wasn't widely discredited. I'm going through it, and will make some (major?) additions to the article from it soon. Let me know if you've any reason to think that the book isn't reliable. Smmurphy(Talk) 20:34, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
Pearson's book is excellent. I think it's credible, because he bases a lot of it on his own interviews with former BPP members. I would also suggest looking at some of the old journalism by Kate Coleman. I think Pearson gives the relevant cites. She was a leftist journalist, and the first to break the story of the BPP's extortion racket against black businesses and its other financial shenanigans.
Verklempt 20:44, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
Ok, I've got some notes from the first half of the Peason book, I'll put them in now. The last part of the book, about the BPP's decline, talks about Coleman. But it also focuses quite a bit on the role Horowitz played. I think on this article in past discussions, there has been some trepidation about emphasizing Horowitz's role and his ideas, so I think it should be discussed here first. I don't really know one way or another how to play it. Coleman seems to rely heavily on Horowitz, while I think Pearson has distanced himself from Horowitz somewhat (see quote in this article from the Nation 2003) which makes me feel more comfortable with him as a reference in general. Anyway, I think I'll add some of this stuff, and see where it goes from here. Its a new section called violence, and a bit on Seale and Newton and the founding. I'm not planning on changing the lead just yet, but it could be cleaned up as well. Let me know what you think -and fix my mistakes ; ) Best, Smmurphy(Talk) 22:12, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
There is some linkage between Horowitz and Coleman. She has published about the BPP in Horowitz's online magazine. They have in common that they were both leftist supporters of the BPP, who later changed their opinion of the group. However, if you look at Coleman's early journalism, I think it would be mistaken to attribute Horowitz as her major source. Her article on the BPP's finances is well worth obtaining. Horowitz is not her source for that.Verklempt 22:16, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
That is a good point, the financing of a lot of these 60s leftist groups was strange and interesting (and encyclopedic, I suppose). Coleman isn't the only source for that, but I'm sure it would work fine. I think I'll hold off making any more major changes until what I just added is digested a bit. If you have it, I think it would be ok to add some about it, though. Best, Smmurphy(Talk) 22:34, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] References/Footnotes

I decided to change the style of the footnotes to a double colume layout to make it more manageable, also, I changed the title to References for obvious reasons
Ferdia O'Brien The Archiver And The Vandal Watchman (Talk) 14:28, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Revolutionary Suicide"

As Bobby Seale wrote 'Seize the time' Huey P Newton wrote 'Revolutionary Suicide'. It's an obscure book and out of print but it should be mentioned somwhere in the article.  SmokeyTheCat  •TALK• 10:16, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

It should be noted that Revolutionary Suicide was largely written by J. Herman Blake and that Newton's input was minimal. See Roz Payne, 'WACing off' in Lazerow and Williams (eds.), In Search of the Black Panther Party pp. 174, 180n22 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jswba (talk • contribs) 16:07, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Racism

I once edited black the black panthers page to also to mention the they were rasicts and compared then to the kkk. Then i was acussed of vandalism by wiki. ITs commoms knowledge that they were basicaly the black klan. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.253.210.249 (talk) 02:25, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

If it is common knowledge, then you won't have any trouble finding a reliable source. - N1h1l 14:09, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ten Point Program

I think it would be great to make a page about the Ten Point Program. It seems like a really vital part of this topic. Does anyone have any suggestions before I go ahead and do that?--DerRichter 22:21, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Section 4.1 Criticism - Violence

"They often took advantage of a little known California law which made it permissible to carry a loaded rifle or shotgun"

The aforementioned little-known California law is merely a restatement of a better-known supreme law of the land; namely, that people have the right to bear arms, with no infringement whatsoever. DayKart (talk) 10:23, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Widening Support

Quotes by Jane Fonda can't stay in without sources and citations.--Parkwells (talk) 00:34, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] RAM

References are needed for the note that Seale and Newton were members of RAM. The standard sources (Pearson, Joseph etc.) maintain that they were members of the Afro-American Association prior to forming the BPP. User:jswba —Preceding comment was added at 16:10, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Filing candidates

Have the Black Panther Party ever nominated candidate to political offices? Chimeric Glider (talk) 22:33, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Good question. "Minister of Information" Eldridge Cleaver ran for president in 1968 on the Peace and Freedom Party ticket, but I don't know whether the BPP ever ran a candidate of their own in any election. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 22:56, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
Elaine Brown ran for a position on Oakland's City Council in (April) 1973 and Bobby Seale ran for Mayor in the same election. Brown lost by 4,000 votes and Seale came second to the incumbent mayor John Reading, but lost the runoff election a month later. The information can be found in numerous books dealing with the BPP and in Robert Self's American Babylon (an excellent history of race and suburbanization in Oakland). Jswba (talk) 09:06, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Malcolm X a Black Panther?

I deleted "MALCOM X WAS IN FACT A BLACK PANTHER ==". While I haven't done any research on either the man or the organization, *was* Malcolm X a Black Panther? If he is, it should have been better phrased or whatever... Red dwarf (talk) 16:19, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Malcolm was never a member of the BPP. In fact he was dead before the party was created.--Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 17:26, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
My recollection is that one of the first actions by the Panthers was providing protection for Malcolm's widow, Betty Shabazz, when she visited San Francisco or Oakland. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 19:44, 11 May 2008 (UTC)