Talk:Black Indians

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Contents

[edit] Skin mention appropriateness

Who wrote this article? I believe IP address 84.65.13.26. "Traditional red-skinned Indians"???? Native Americans do not possess red skin. Color ranges from olive to dark brown. There is no such thing as "red" skin, and red is not traditional. Melanin is melanin in skin color. I am changing this article to delete the racist garbage. The article is poorly written/edited by someone with an agenda; it was full of broad claims and innaccurate statements. It appears to have been edited by someone bent in introducing a racial agenda to an encyclopedia, to teach a lesson on political correctness. Really, writing that Africa is a Roman Latin word and not the correct word for Africa because the Romans were outsiders or white is absurd on a page about Black Indians. Judging by the contributions to articles you write 84.65.13.26, you do have quite an afrocentric racial agenda. Your edits did not create a neutral article meant to inform. It has been edited. Any changes will bring a neutral point of view check. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.13.91.124 (talk • contribs)

[edit] Relations

I have introduced a new subpart, "Relations between Native Americans and Africans", to try to expand this article, which is way too short for such an interesting and well-documented topic. Several references exist to support this section, and will be added in the coming days, feel free to add some if you wish, and to add and edit this section.

[edit] Expansion and improvement request

I am African American and writing this section with the understanding that "Black Indian" is a subject primarily of interest within the African American community; I am very open to a dialogue challenging and discussing such understanding if you so feel the need. Overall I just want this article vastly expanded and improved.--Msr69er 18:08, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Other Indian Overlaps

This article is interesting, about the fusion of two cultures. Are there similar articles that can be referenced such as descendants who overlap between ancestries other than African, such as various European cultures/countries/religions, and other stuff? Or for people of non-native ancestry adopting native worship practises? Tyciol 18:02, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ethnic Group Tag

This has also been tagged with an WikiProject Ethnic groups tag to improve the quality of this article. Mappychris 21:44, 3 December 2006 (UTC)Mappychris

[edit] I've heard of Redskins

I had never heard of black Indians until after Wikipedia was invented. Indians used to be called "Redskins." GhostofSuperslum 01:00, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Then you should do more research on Native Americans I'd say. I know a black Diné Indian actually. This is definitely a real phenomenon. Just look at all the external links. And the term redskin was more in reference to body paint used by some Native groups than to the actual color of their skin. Ungovernable ForceGot something to say? 01:43, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
If you believe that "body paint" is the reason why Indians were called "Redskins," you'll believe that the Brooklyn Bridge is on sale for 20 dollars. GhostofSuperslum 13:55, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
It is? $20? That's pretty cheap. Where can I bid on that? I've also heard something about blood, but paint used by various N. Eastern groups is what we learned in our Native Peoples of N. America class. It was probably a bit of both in terms of coming up with the name. Or are you thinking of something completely different? Ungovernable ForceGot something to say? 20:48, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Actually, many Native American populations, when they tan, acquire a markedly reddish hue to their skin -- in much the same way some African and African American populations do. I believe that is the origin of the term. deeceevoice 19:29, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Merge

The merger is a good idea. It will make this article better. futurebird 16:00, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree per Futurebird. on camera 13:08, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Percentage of African Americans with Native American ancestry

Earlier tonight, an IP editor disagreed with the number 90%, but went about disputing it in exactly the wrong way, by blanking the page repeatedly. However, I did notice that 90% just seemed high, so I did some digging, and as a result have changed the number.

The number was given as 40% until earlier this evening, when it was changed by User:Zbp23, apparently with support from User:Relir. In theory, this number was supported by references: [1] [2]

However, neither number, as far as I can tell, is supported by those references. I cannot find any assertion of Native American ancestry in African Americans in the first reference, and the second reference is a broken link.

I did find a reference on the same site as the first reference (and which I included in my edit), [3], which seems to indicate a much smaller percentage, of 3.3-5.1%.

Now, I understand that the average percentage of Native American ancestry in each person is not the same as the percentage of people with any trace of Native American ancestry, so I'll admit the number might be slightly different. If someone can provide a legitimate link to a higher number, more power to you. Indeed, if someone thinks it better to not include a percentage at all until a better source is found, I wouldn't disagree. --barneca (talk) 02:28, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

I removed the sentence until a legit number, backed by references, is found. --barneca (talk) 12:38, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ethnic Group Infobox

I created an ethnic group infobox for the article. It is rather basic, but I felt that this article could use some improvement. The people in the infobox have sources indicating that they have Native American ancestry in their respective articles. Mappychris (talk) 21:14, 3 January 2008 (UTC)mappychris

[edit] Chrisette Michele

Ok can any one find any information on her because there seems to be alot of dead ends. I have nothing against her at all I would just feel alot more comfortable with her heritage being referecned instead her just being acknowledged.Mcelite (talk) 02:54, 26 February 2008 (UTC)mcelite

[edit] In the other direction

I was wondering if people like Oscar Pettiford, more American Indian than black by the sounds of it[4][5], would fit on the end list? Or is it just for people who are primarily of African ancestry?--T. Anthony (talk) 11:24, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Yeah that works as long as they have both African American and Native American heritage. If they also have some other heritage as well then that is ok it just doesn't need to be mentioned.Mcelite (talk) 23:24, 29 March 2008 (UTC)mcelite

[edit] Article for Deletion

This article should be deleted. Or create white/native americans, chinese/native americans, irish/native americans articles as well ... This article is of little value.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.215.118.156 (talk • contribs)

[edit] WP:SYNTH? or original research

This article appears to breach WP:SYNTH at best and represents it seems to me original research. For example the first reference provided [6] does not give the term Black Indian though does cover ethnic and racial terminology. (I have concern also that these references do not support the assertions they are tagged against but that is another issue and I have tagged accordingly) At the very least I wish to see a reliable source cited that uses the term. --Matilda talk 00:50, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Well the term Black Indian, Afro-Native American or African-Native American are tossed around. Where would be a good place to find more reliable sources is the question. I'm going to try the web of knowledge and see if i can find anything that will help. Even though African-Native American admixture is not uncommon it may be hard to find more reliable sources on it. I've tried some books but they're self published so I couldn't use them.Mcelite (talk) 00:55, 10 June 2008 (UTC)mcelite
Have a look at Racial and ethnic demographics of the United States and the sources used in that article. The US census Bureau should have some data if it is a significant group. --Matilda talk 01:31, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Census stats

The 2000 US census indicates that 182,494 people were coded to 110: Black or African American; American Indian and Alaska Native (AIAN) [7] It isn't clear to me if this is the group covered by this article as the definition is not sourced back to demographic tabulations and the referencing is currently inadequate. From List of Race or Ethnic Groups 110 is the code where 2 or more races are indicated and the 2 races in this case are Black or African American and American Indian and Alaska Native. From [8] The two or more races category includes all respondents who reported two or more races, such as "White and Asian" and "White and Asian and Black or African American". Note code 110 is one 336 possible population groups --Matilda talk 01:52, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm gonna have to find another more recent source or something. That count is extremely low considering how long interracial relations and marriage have been going on between the two groups. That is just too low of a count considering that most recent studies show that 58%-70% of the African American pop. has native ancestry. This is going to take work.Mcelite (talk) 16:38, 10 June 2008 (UTC)mcelite
Note the census uses self-description - ie this is how people answered the question and this captures those who responded both races. What is your source for 58%-70% of the African American pop. has native ancestry ?--Matilda talk 21:51, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
He didn't produce such sources earlier when this question was discussed at Talk:Native Americans in the United States. Rmhermen (talk) 22:53, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
It was in a journal going over genetic studies. It will take me time to find it again because it has been a while since I've looked at. Bascilly before I became an editor. It's going to be hard
  • for one people are relunctant to discuss their full heritage
  • the government's way of taking census was biased (if you looked more African American then that's what you were they could care less about what you told them.)
  • some people don't like the full truth to come out because they don't like it.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Mcelite (talk • contribs)
Obviously the census is not perfect but if you wish to claim it is inaccurate you will need to come up with some sources to verify this bias. I believe it is the most reliable source available but happy for it to be qualified with reference to reputable reliable sources. --Matilda talk 23:34, 10 June 2008 (UTC)