Talk:Black Hawk War/Archive 1

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[edit] Old discussion

If you compare to the far-more-detailed account at http://lincoln.lib.niu.edu/blackhawk/ it seems like the Wikipedia version has a large number of grossly misleading omissions. (For example, Gen. Scott's troops never participated in the war because they caught a cholera epidemic. As another example, before I rewrote the first couple of paragraphs, they made it seem like there had never been any problems until Black Hawk came home in 1830 and found his land occupied...in reality, there had been treaty disputes stretching back for nearly 30 years, and whites already occupied more of 1830 Illinois than the Native Americans.) Someone really needs to go through and check everything, or rewrite it from scratch, preferably with a third source to corroborate against. (Although the abovementioned URL has a lot of primary source material.) The abovementioned URL also has no mention that I can find of Keokuk's alleged 1830 land sale, and it's not clear how that fits into the earlier treaty disputes, so that definitely needs to be checked against a third source. Steven G. Johnson

The 1830 land sale in question is here, negotiated by William Clark. --Kevin Myers 08:35, August 5, 2005 (UTC)
It is undenyable that, from what can be seen at the link provided by Kevin Myers, that the 1830 treaty did exist. Yet, I must concur with Steve's concern above that I myself have not been able to find any mention to it at none of the sources I've consulted either. For once, the exhaustive research by James Lewis which can be read at the link provided by Steve does mention the Removal Bill of 1830, which may well have served as base for this treaty, but it specifically says: "... But neither the (President Andrew) Jackson administration in Washington nor its agents in the field believed that a new treaty with the Sauks and Foxes was needed. The old treaties of 1804, 1816, and 1825 had already committed the two tribes to remove west of the Mississippi. In this climate of removal, John Reynolds, the new governor of Illinois, felt confident that the administration would support him when he renewed the state's requests that the Sauk and Fox be forced to live up to the old treaties."
This contradiction is repeated when considering the accounts made by different sources of the events. Lewis is clear to state that Black Hawk was forced to leave Saukenuk into west of the Mississipi in 1831 (his last departure before the crossing of April 5 1832) by Reynolds and Gaines, while this research by author Lee Sultzman mentions as cause a military tension between the Sauk and the Dakota that year, after which he was compelled not to recross east by Atkins and Keokuk (no mention to Gaines).
With so many contradictions at hand, it is unclear how to make a reliable and detailed account of all the events. Steve is right regarding the lack of detail of the current version, but without more (and verifiable) sources, the task is challenging indeed. Phaedriel 14:26, 10 December 2005 (UTC)


[edit] Black Hawk War

This article seems to imply that the Bad Axe River is in Northern Illinois. (Was it at the time of the Blackhawk War?) It is located in present day Wisconsin on the East bank of the Mississippi River, between DeSoto, WI and Genoa, WI (near Victory). See Wisconsin State Highway Map (Blackhawk Recreational Area, US Army Corps of Engineers). Bernard H. Lincks, Jr., junie@badgerinternet.com, Jul 27, 2005.

[edit] Utah Black Hawk War

Perhaps this topic could somehow be disambiguated from the "Black Hawk War" fought in Utah in the years 1865-72. See:

http://historytogo.utah.gov/utah_chapters/american_indians/blackhawkwar.html

Ziusudra 16:58, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

  • Done.

Ziusudra 01:53, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

If there were 500 natives, then how could they have suffered 450-600 casualties? Makes no sense past 500!

[edit] Battle of Stillman's run

Can someone please put the link for the Battle of Stillman's run in the Battlebox.

Done. The page is Template:Campaignbox Black Hawk War, in case you need to make more adjustments. --Kevin Myers | (complaint dept.) 14:26, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

The article seems to give the impression that 300 armed militiamen made an unprovked attack on 40 Indians, and were routed with 11 of ther own men dead. This seems to me to be extremely unlikley. What are the sources for this assertion?

Many, many. [1] and [2] to start you out on. Since this battle was the first armed confrontation of the War, don't you think there should be a small blurb about it with a link to the main article?--Kranar drogin 06:59, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
I have also started a stub on Isaiah Stillman. More can be gleaned from those two links I have posted, but it is a start.--Kranar drogin 07:02, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
I know this was six months ago but the militia was so ill-prepared (all volunteers, most with no combat experience) and ill-disciplined, that when the small band of Native Americans charged they were duped into believing that there were far more than there really were, they fled all the way back to Dixon's Ferry I believe. It wasn't until skirmishes at Waddams Grove and Bloody Lake that the morale and confidence was restored in not only the militia but in the public's faith in the militia. Pretty interesting bit in the history of the settlement/conquering of the Midwest. IvoShandor 14:34, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] WP Military History Assessment

I've assessed this as "Start" class, really it's not too far from "B" class - it would be there already apart from the concerns that have been voiced here.

[edit] Map

I think that a fair use image of a map like this [3] needs to be found to add to the document. That site also has some images that might want to be used. It will bring more to the article.--Kranar drogin 15:00, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

We could draw our own, or get someone who knows Illustrator or something like it to do it for us. Fair use isn't necessary. IvoShandor 02:12, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

I know someone who will make a map. 02:12, 5 July 2007 (UTC)