Talk:Black Country

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[edit] The Black Country

Is there a definitive answer as to why it's called "The Black Country". I believe the name pre-dates the Industrial Revolution, and so the latter explanation seems possible? Mintguy 00:54 Apr 23, 2003 (UTC)

The explanation of the Black Country's name stemming from it being an industry- and smoke-filled area is probably a folk etymology much like 'to insure promptness' being the origin of 'tip'. I'd go with the coal. --Matthew 13:26, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)

The smoke filled area seems to be a very common explanation of the name, and that is what is said on the Black Country Living Museum website. Really we should give airing to both views, seem as there both used. G-Man 21:32, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

It would certainly be helpful if there was a paragraph specifically concerning the possible origins of the name as it is an obvious question whose answer is only hinted at in the text. Orangejon 11:33, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Black Country dialect

The Black Country Dialect is very old, and can be very confusing for outsiders. The language is said to be a throw back to "Olde English" and still contains words such as Thee, Thy and Thou. "'Ow B'ist", meaning "How beist thou?" is a common greeting, with the typical answering being "'Bay too bah", meaning "I bayn't be too bad". Black country "folk" as they are called are very proud, and resist hints at any relationship to people living in Birmingham, calling Birmingham "Brum-a-jum". Black Country folks take pride in being simple, hardworking people.

There is definately something to be said about the Black Country dialect, but I'm not sure about the above paragraph. I live in Wolverhampton, and I haven't heard the above greetings, or any serious use of Thee, Thy and Thou. Perhaps these usages are extinct in the city, but survive elsewhere? If so, the fact deserves a mention.

Perhaps it should say "the traditional black country dialect" and note that it is not so common now perhaps G-Man 17:42, 14 Oct 2003 (UTC)

"Ah bist/ ow bist" is Lye speak. Lye is just outside Stourbridge and has it's own language (like old German) dating back to medieval times.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.66.249.18 (talk • contribs) 11:52, 18 July 2005


There was this episode of Floyd on Britain where he cooked up his version of Black Country beef in beer and served it to a local boatman. When pressed for comment, i can swear the man was speaking a totally different language! couldn't make out a single damned word of what the boatman said! incredible. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 161.142.96.184 (talk • contribs) 11:25, 22 November 2006

An interesting point that I'd never really thought of, but which was pointed out to me my a Scotsman recently, is the Black Country simplification of the verb "to be".

I am = I am

You are = You am

He is = He is

We are = We am

You are = You am

They are = They am

I think I'm correct in saying that "he is" remains as "he is". I don't ever recall saying "'e am, ay 'e?"

In the negative it's even more consistent, every ending for "is/are not" being "ay".

I ay

You ay

etc

Mick P —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.181.235.241 (talk • contribs) 08:22, 2 August 2006

[edit] Capital of the Black Country

Wot, no mention of Dudley as being the undisputed capital of the Black Country? ;-) --Matthew 13:26, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)

In all seriousness here, there appears to be undue prominence given to Wolverhampton in defining the area of the Black Country. The article reads, to me, that the Black Country is Wolverhampton plus lesser environs. This is odd for the following reasons 1) the article states that Wolverhampton's inclusion in the Black Country is uncertain; 2) Dudley is widely acknowledged as being the 'capital' of the Black Country; and 3) both Dudley MBC and Sandwell MBC have more inhabitants than Wolverhampton (15th, 20th, and 44th respectively, according to List of English Districts by Population. Matthew 19:26, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Well, Wolverhampton is by far the largest town/city in the vicinity! The MBC areas of Dudley and Sandwell (and Walsall) contain several large towns within - Wolverhampton MBC does not. The location of Wolverhampton is generally reasonably well-known so defining the rough geographical location of the Black Country as the area to the south and east of the city (without including the city) makes sense, even if Dudley is the largest town within the actual Black Country.
How about Birmingham for being the largest town in the vicinity? It's not in the Black Country but nor, I would wager, is Wolverhampton! And in terms of size, Dudley isn't significantly smaller than Wolverhampton, which is reflected in its MBC being 15th largest in the country and not 44th.
I'm not sure that Wolverhampton's location is well known in its own right and without reference to Birmingham, which is much the same as can be said for Dudley. Personal experience (which is admittedly weak to be arguing from, but...) tells me that people are aware of both Wolverhampton and of Dudley. Matthew 18:59, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Dudley MBC contains the large towns of Stourbridge and Halesowen as well as Dudley itself, plus several other smaller towns. Dudley (the town)'s population is around 180,000, or about 70% of that of Wolverhampton. You could (if you wanted to) fairly sucessfully argue that the "true" area of Wolverhampton would include large swathes of South Staffordshire where there isn't a gap between the two; areas such as Essington, Codsall, Perton, Lower Penn and Westcroft. There isn't really an equivalent for Dudley - Himley's the neearest but there's a fair sized gap there!
MBC boundaries can't be taken as the size of the town that they are named after, as in 1974 when they were created, it was with the aim of achieving a particular size, that of over 250,000 people. Wolverhampton County Borough already had a larger population than that criteria, so the boundaries were not changed for the MBC; but Dudley CB didn't (and so was merged with Halesowen CB and Stourbridge); West Bromwich CB and Warley CB didn't, so were merged to form Sandwell MBC; Walsall didn't, so was merged with Aldridge & Brownhills UD.
How about we agree that Dudley's the largest town in the Black Country, being a bit bigger than Walsall; Wolverhampton per se isn't in the Black Country, although areas such as Bilston and Heath Town are; and that we leave the reference to the location of the Black Country as being basically the conurbation between Wolverhampton and Birmingham? To go back to your original point, there is no way that this article should appear as if "the Black Country is Wolverhampton plus lesser environs." It's not, and the article doesn't seem that way any more. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.171.174.162 (talk • contribs) 11:07, 6 July 2005
That sounds like a good proposal to me. Stating that Dudley is the largest town in the Black Country would do away with the 'Wolverhampton plus lesser environs' feel. Do you want to make the relevant edit? Matthew 20:39, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
It strikes me that it's entirely uncontroversial to say that Dudley is the largest town in the Black Country, whether or not all of Wolverhampton is included, since Wolverhampton is now a city! As a native Wulfrunian, my hunch is that people in Wolves tend to include it as a Black Country place more as a way of distinguishing ourselves from Birmingham than for any other reason! Loganberry (Talk) 15:59, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

I dont think It's ever read like that, at least thats not how I've read it. G-Man 21:30, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

Raybould (1973) says the boundaries are controversial, but described it as an area south of Staffordshire and North of worcestershire with Dudley at its centre. Pyrotec 21:55, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] The where and what of the Black Country

Following on from the above comments, I am setting out a more explicit area for discussing 'where' and 'what' the Black Country is.

It not just a question of why it's called the Black Country, but also a question of what and where it is. Burritt defined the Black Country as the area within a twenty-mile radius of Birmingham Town Hall (Burritt, 1868: 6). This may have been idiosyncratic, but his powers of observation are well-documented, so his view must also be considered. Aside from that, the Black Country boundary has not been emphatically set out nor agreed. Some say it is roughly contiguous with the coalfield. Others have distinct opinions about particular places. Michael Raven (Black Country Towns and Villages, Tettenhall, Broadside, 1991) regards Smethwick as partly within and partly outside of the Black Country. On the basis of such disparate accounts, I think it is safe to say that the Black Country is a socially-defined state of mind defined partly by disassociation from Birmingham, despite the intricacy of links between them two places. In a very broad sense, even the regional dialect can be regarded as a socially-defined boundary, and that the Black Country as defined by dialect is a distinct area roughly contiguous with some of the other definitions of place. (Even though a Walsall accent is distinct from a Dudley accent, and so on.) In a similar vein, conversations with people like the Tipton town historian and the director of the Wednesbury Art Gallery have revealed localised definitions based on notions of 'this town is not Black Country, but the neighbouring town definitely is', or that the Black Country is defined by social characterstics like the (former) parochialism and hard graft of villages across the plateau. e-tat 2005-10-17 00:56:18

[edit] email me bluenfunky@aol.com

I'm from blakenal heath, and my writings are as acurate from what I know of my OWN culture, I wrote in detail the common phrases, heard by some of the older people around the bloxwich area. Every time I put something up some idiot keeps pulling it down, half of their shit is wholly innacurate, "ow be-ist though"???????? its "ow bin ya" or "warro" "warro duck" or in walsall "a yo auriute aer kid" . I went to the Australian english and they're saying that irish influenced austrailian english, just because they use me for my warra joke!!!!!!! Austrailian english sounds nothing like irish, neither does cockney really, just because one man wrote the book two years in south wales, he only refered to cockney because it was probably the only diallect he knew that sounded simular, but If he had exposiure to the black country diallect he might of wrote that diffrently. For starter, in london its "einit" but in the black country its "aye it" you dont see many australians say einit????. Also I read under estuary English that estuary english takes some from australian and american????? mmmmmmm The truth is that esturary english takes bits from the black country language. Some one even wrote that austrailian takes its language from irish based on the fact that that me for my is common, but thats lousy wishful thinking on their behalf example "me mon" is black country "my man" "my freind". Its obvious to anyone local that the broadest black country dialect inflenced the broad australian dialect. But they keep avoiding the issue because "oh we can't sound like the brits can we" because of the steriotype of "snobby britain" they assume that all brits talk like that, and theyre can't possibly be a roots accent from england. It needs more research. Wether its my grammar or I need to write it a bit better but what I know is sound. I was quite offended under the definition of pork rinds "regarded by the british as somewhat plebian", thats standing up to the upperclass steriotype, so theyre saying I'm a pleb for eating pork rinds??????? since when were pork rinds considered plebian, the first rinds were made here in the black country, and they're very popular. There needs to be some unbiased, unsteriotypical research based on real evidence, ie voice recordings.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.93.21.98 (talk • contribs) 17:40, 19 January 2006

[edit] black country

Sos, its messy aye it. I think the black country streteches from cradley to hendsford and isnt really a regional diallect but rather a diallect of a social tribe, bloke culture of of the strife of the anglo folks who descend from the miners, metal bashers,and leather workers of the last century.

I think there are two varieties, rural and urban, and I think that some parts of south staffordshire with that nasally sounding drawl of tony butler like lower penn, cheslyn hay, hendsford, should be looked as the rural.

and the diallect s residential areas of walsall, tipton, west brom, dudley, wolverhamton as urbane black country spoken by the older white people still living in these towns should be called urban.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.93.21.98 (talk • contribs) 19:56, 24 April 2006

Yode(you would) .

Yole(you will) .

Dayna(daint want to).

Downa(don't want to).

Dow(don't) .

Daye(did not).

Wow(won't).

Arr(yes) .

Tha(that) .

Thas(thats).

Aye(aint) .

Gonna(going to).

Doowih(do it).

Arl(i will) .

Awow(I won't).

Iuye (I).

Tharaye(that aint).

Tharis(that is).

Dayah(d'aint you).

Dowya(don't you).

Isi(is it) .

Whera(where are).

Whoa(who are).

Yoe(you).

Wheramya(where are you.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.93.21.98} (talk • contribs) 17:01, 29 April 2006

[edit] Edited

In editing this article, I have deleted the following as I am not sure that it is correct:

When King Henry VIII gave Rowley its royal charter (to become Rowley Regis) the town was referred to as "Rowley in the Blacke Countrie". This was long before the Industrial Revolution.

Having editted the article (and added to it), I have removed the 'cleean up' tag from it. I have not touched the dialect section, as I am not qualified to do so. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Peterkingiron (talk • contribs) 21:11, 1 May 2006

[edit] Four Boroughs

I've had to amend certain key inaccuracies.The definition accepted by Governments both UK and Europe are the Four Boroughs. It is just confusing to say Cannock may be in- it is not; and that Smethwick is not in- it is in. For example of how clear the border is with Birmingham; look at the Lordswood Road and Bearwood Road junction with the Hagley Road.

There is also no 'capital' recognised- Dudley just thinks that it is. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.42.121.208 (talk • contribs) 21:42, 10 November 2006

[edit] Had to Remove Quote on Dialect

I removed this text:

"The dialect of the Black Country area remains perhaps one of the last examples of early English still spoken today. The word endings with 'en' are still noticeable in conversation as in 'gooen' (going), callen (calling) and the vowel 'A' is pronounced as 'O' as in sond (sand), hond (hand) and mon (man) also rot (rat). Other pronunciations are 'winder' for window, 'fer' for far, and 'loff' for laugh - exactly as Chaucer's English was spoken. Local dialect was (and probably still is to a lesser degree) quite distinctive between the different towns and villages of the Black Country."

There are two problems:

1. It's directly lifted from http://www.sedgleymanor.com/dictionaries/dialect.html

and putting it in quotes doesn't make that OK. Copyright law only allows you to quote text when you are commenting on the quote.

2. It's from an amateur linguistic site and has all sorts of linguistic problems like calling -en verb endings an archaic feature, while equating them with -ing endings. (-en could be either an archaic infinitive ending, or a modern phonetic corruption of -ing, but not both.) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.7.46.118 (talk) 22:10, 9 January 2007 (UTC).

[edit] The whole dialect deal

It's really very silly. The article assumes too much and almost takes a comedic tone. Furthermore, it goes on to deduce the attitude of all "Black Country folk" into one sentence. This is a terrible article, and I suggest that certain parts of it are revised. I'll go over it later if I have time. Schizmatic 18:00, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Map

Can we have a locator map for the article?

And, understanding that it is not well defined, nonetheless this might be handled in any of 2 ways - text saying "map of the Black Country. The exact region covered is not well defined", or two colours, for "usually agreed" and "agreed in some sources not by others".

FT2 (Talk | email) 09:19, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Map, Languages and Capital

I'm from Walsall and i consider it to be a part of the Black Country, mainly because of it's leather production and the way people talk. Wolverhampton i also consider to be a part of the Black Country, including Dudley, Sandwell, West Bromwich, Northern Birmingham and everywhere between. I don't think there is actually a border or map which could explain where the boundary of the Black Country begins and ends. It's slightly different wherever you go mainly because of it's people and i think that's where the problem lies, people have settled with this and i know for a fact that 2 generations ago there was a neighborhood in southern cannock (bridgtown) which could partially be considered a part of the Black Country because of it's people. Defining where the Black Country is, is not easy like defining London or elsewhere, it's like saying, draw a diagram on this map showing where all of the Londoners live. We should dismiss trying to put a definate location on where the Black Country is, for the nearest answer, 'West Midlands' and 'Southern Staffordshire' would be appropiate but this still wouldn't include every part of it.

Someone mentioned that Heath Town was a part of the Black Country but Wolverhampton was not, or near enough this idea, well that i can say is practically impossible to say. Heath Town is maybe a mile away from Wolverhampton Town Centre and on one of the key roads towards it. Saying Wolverhampton was not part of the Black Country and Heath Town is, must surely be on thoughts. The 'Black Country Museum' i believe is based within Wolverhampton and much of the coal mining and furnaces are still visible here. Metal Factories cover large industrial estates which litter Wolverhampton too, showing a clear heritage.

It's my belief that the Black Country itself should be defined by it's people, not location. By doing so your forgetting MBC's and towns, your linking the Black Country to the workplaces and the people that worked within them (or their ancestors), that is how the area came of it's name.

AccuraUK 00:03, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

The Black Country Museum is within a mile of Dudley Town Centre and is further away from Wolverhampton than Dudley itself.

I would also question the inclusion of blackcountrypodcasting. It's not a notable media outlet - I had lived in the Black Country for 18 years and as a youth would expected to have heard of such a thing but I never knew it existed?

For me, that paragraph is shameless advertising. Thoughts? Worley-d 19:37, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree with much of what Worley-d says. Perhaps blackcountrypodcasting is advertising; however as there is already a link to the BBC Black Country web page and a paragraph and a link to the Express and Star, we can hardly remove just one of them. This advertising needs to be watched, and if they multiply, then culling will be needed.Pyrotec 20:16, 20 October 2007 (UTC)