Talk:Black Canadians

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[edit] General discussion

I Would like to point out that, African Canadian is a incorrect term. The American stood for North America, not the United States of America.

Irrelevant. The community is free to make its own choices as to how it identifies. It doesn't matter how US-Americans use the word "American"; if it lands inappropriately on Canadian ears, that's the final word no matter what. Bearcat 02:10, 24 August 2006 (UTC)


The statement "In spite of the great contributions Black Canadians have made, many still face challenges in the society." is a subjective one.

I recommend "In spite of the great contributions Black Canadians have made" be deleted or replaced with "Although many believe Black Canadians have made great contributions..."

Changed that DeirYassin 21:44, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
  • That statement is also subjective - if you review the list of Black Canadians, in many cases their contributions to Canadian society are absolutely inarguable. Bearcat 10:05, 13 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Racist comment by 66.63.126.171 reverted Apr 13. Bearcat 22:59, 13 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Jarome Iginla is listed as a famous black Canadian. Iginla is in fact of mixed racial origins, as pointed out in his wikipedia article. I don't know if this means his name should be moved or should remain in that section.

The article mentions Exodusters. I was not aware Exodusters had made it to Canada at any point (it was primarily a movement from the American South to Kansas). "The Blacks in Canada: A History", widely considered the definitive history of Black Canadians, doesn't seem to include any mention of them (I could be wrong though). Can anybody provide a source for this?

Is Pinball Clemons an American or Canadian? I'm not sure of his current legal status in Canada but he is certainly an American citizen.

  • Thanks to Samaritan for the clarification on Pinball. Based on his permanant resident status and prominant role in Canadian society, I say he should definitely be kept on the list.--Daul21 06:36, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] "Caribbean" descent?

To say that Black Canadian refers to Canadians of "African or Caribbean descent" seems misleading; many Caribbean people are of non-African origin (especially Chinese and Indian; and for that matter, European) and do not consider themselves black. Those Caribbean people of African descent would be included by saying simple "Canadians of African descent" only. So, I propose to remove the "or Caribbean" from the definition. Sharkford 20:33, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

On the other hand, many West Indians of non-African descent consider themselves "black", especially when they find themselves in "white people country". Many Trinidadians see "black" as a term for "non-white" and prefer the term "negro" for people of African descent. Guettarda 21:34, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
As the article makes quite clear, in the particular context of Canada there's a very real tension between Caribbean and non-Caribbean black Canadians as to the definition and labelling of their communities. Even taking into account the fact that Caribbean blacks are usually (although, as Guettarda correctly points out above, not always) of African heritage when you trace further back, they object quite strongly to the elision of their Caribbean history. I've tried a rewrite which is hopefully clearer about the complexity of the issue, but simply removing "or Caribbean" isn't the way to do it in this case. Bearcat 22:42, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
Yes, I'm aware of the tension between Black Canadians of (recent) Caribbean origin and those who trace their lineage otherwise (overheard: "My, what a lovely accent you have; what exotic island are you from?"—"Cape Breton!"); and also between "afro-" and "indo-" people within the former community, though even on re-reading I don't think I'd agree that the article makes this particularly clear. But perhaps this is material for a different article. I was unaware that Caribbean people with no African ancestry (for example, Trinidadians of solely Indian or Chinese ancestry) grouped themselves as Black, so many thanks for that information. At any rate I think the rewrite is very good. Sharkford 14:14, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

I always thought that Black Canadians of Jamaican origin alone constituted about 50% of the general Black population in Canada ( I read in another article about Jamaicans being unfairl deported that there were more then 300 000 Jamaicans living in Canada), I'm also surprised the African % is as high as 16, are these numbers accurate? If they are, that's very interesting, where are these sources from? To the previous posts, for this article 'Black' refers to people of African descent but I also wondered if the African/Caribbean statistics omitted non-Black people from those regions who are classified as 'African' and Caribbean on census--161.57.100.3 18:31, 29 October 2005 (UTC)Anonymous X

I really don't know where the stats are from; I didn't add them. But we would certainly need an annotated factual reference to back up any assertion that Jamaicans alone constituted 50% of the community. Bearcat 08:39, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

I think I've rephrased the intro in a way that will please everyone. Please take a look.--Cuchullain 22:06, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] About Caribbean

We should leave caribbean Canadian. Blacks who are African only make 1 in 5 Blacks, so why should blacks in general be called African. If anyone went to the Caribbean and called them African, they would give you looks of deepest loathing.

[edit] Identity labels

Gawd, how I wish Toronto Star links stayed active more than a week...this would be a really choice external link here. Bearcat 08:08, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Michaëlle Jean

I notice that User:Bearcat removed Michaëlle Jean from the list of Black Canadians. He claims that "we" have "repeated" many times that she does not belong on the list, but I don't see any discussion at all on this talk page regarding her inclusion (and I checked before adding her name in the first place). I think that Bearcat is acting unilaterally, and the fact that several people have apparently (without my prior knowledge) previously added her to the list shows that the consensus is actually in the other direction. Andrew Levine 22:10, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

I didn't say she doesn't belong in the list; I said she's already mentioned in the article. The rule on Wikipedia is that we don't list a person multiple times in an article of this type. Bearcat 22:26, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
Where is this rule stated? Andrew Levine 22:30, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
Is there a valid reason why she should be listed twice? Is there a valid reason why she should get to be the only person listed twice in the entire article? It doesn't have to be a stated rule to be valid — it's a basic editing rule that you don't put two different entries for a single person in a single list. How does this qualify as some kind of exception? Bearcat 22:37, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
There are a number of featured lists, recognized as conforming to Wikipedia's editing guidelines, which mention a few items in the lead and then go on to include them in the list that follows. Among them are:
...and probably many others, as I only clicked on a few. If you want to know a good reason why she should be listed a second time, you need only count the number of times people have noticeable absence from the bulleted list and added her to it. I think many people are likely to simply scroll past the prose section of the page until they find something like a bulleted list, and they may zip past the brief mention of Jean in the lead, and be confused at why she's not there. Andrew Levine 22:43, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
On form, I agree with Bearcat's point; on usability, I agree with Andrew's, and I tend to think, here, the latter wins the day. Samaritan 22:45, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
Well, you know, maybe I'm different from most people, but when I see a person mentioned in the expository section of an article and then repeated in the subsequent list, that doesn't increase the article's usability for me — it only makes it look sloppily edited, which inherently reduces the article's value. YMMV, I suppose, but I fail to see any convincing reason why I should revise my view of how this kind of thing comes across to the reader, because I don't for a second believe that my perceptions are abnormal. Bearcat 22:59, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
Bearcat, let me know if my latest edit to the page is a suitable compromise. I removed Jean from the lead and added her to the bulleted list. Hopefully this resolves the issue of "special treatment." Andrew Levine 23:08, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
Seems fair. Glad we were able to resolve this without bloodshed :-) Bearcat 23:12, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Before long, we should spin off List of Black Canadians; there's certainly much more to be written on Black Canadian history and communities in the main article body... Samaritan 23:11, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

I'd also agree with that... Bearcat 23:12, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Demographic question

This article at one time contained an unsourced claim that half of all black Canadians were of Jamaican origin alone. Then, when somebody provided an actual sourced demographic breakdown, the percentage of Jamaicans was around 38, so the sentence in question was changed to "a third" accordingly. Now, all of a sudden, the claim is back to half, and the sourced percentages have been taken back out. Can somebody explain why we're removing actual sources from Wikipedia articles, and/or provide a real source to support the "half" claim? Remember that information in Wikipedia has to be verifiable. Bearcat 15:46, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't have the stats but I do know that roughly 60% of all afro-canadians are jamaicans. Even if you were to come to Toronto or Vancouver you will see some Ghana's and ethiopians but the majority are probabbly jamaicans —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ihba (talk • contribs) 00:34, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Link for Black Canadians Page

Black Crafters Guild http://craftsguild.net African Diasporans creating, decorating, and creatively altering items by hand.

Afrocentric Homeschooler Association http://blackhomeschool.org

Both nonprofit organisations are completely free and based in Ontario, Canada.

[edit] Deletion

In AshleyMorton's words, "I believe this article's topic to be something that neither requires nor merits a Wikipedia article. I believe that the current low quality of the article (which seems to be not much more than a recitation of demographic statistics with the addition of a single paragraph of not-fully-relevant history) does not, as some might suggest, mean that the article should be improved. I believe, instead, that it demonstrates that a Wikipedia-quality article cannot be written on this topic. The poor article quality is, of course, just a symptom of the lack of encyclopedic nature of this topic. First, I believe that this article has been created to bolster a school of thought which believes that this identity exists. An article on that sort of racialized thinking might be valid, of course, but that's not the same thing as creating an article which should only exist if you buy into their belief system.

As an example of the sort of confused thinking that must have lead to the creation of this article, the "Ethnic group" infobox template has been used. However, this confounds the concept of a skin colour and an "ethnicity". Ethnicity, as reported by Statistics Canada (for example), includes most national identities that can be seriously considered. "Quebecois" (apologies for lack of accents) is included, as is "Canadian", "Irish", "Lebanese" and "Ethiopian". THOSE are ethnicities (or at least, they're worthy of Wikipedia articles, because they clearly encompass a set of people who understand themselves by the label. However, the set of people who understand their own ethnicity to be "Black Canadian" is very different from the set of people described by the label.

Finally, I will head off the most obvious and useless argument - which has been used both in the article and on its talk page. In fact, the first sentence of the article is, I believe, nothing more than an attempt to justify the very existence of the article. Any article that must do that is on shaky ground.) The argument basically says that because StatsCan counts it, it must be a valid article. This is an irrelevant point, as StatsCan counts numerous things that are not worthy of articles - can you picture an article with the title "Single Family Dwellings in Kenora" ??? AshleyMorton 16:56, 4 December 2006 (UTC)"

I think this applies to this article greatly.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by RyanRP (talk • contribs).

RyanRP is unhappy with other editors at talk:White Canadian, and is making a WP:POINT. —Michael Z. 2006-12-05 23:40 Z
  • I agree that the same academic standards should be applied to all race/ethnic articles on Wikipedia. The logic that is being used to propose deletion of the White Canadian article can just as easily be applied to this article and similar articles. Spylab 00:07, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
No, it can't. "Black Canadian" is a specific cultural identity with a legitimately encyclopedic common history, a legitimately encyclopedic social and cultural context. "White Canadian" is just a weird POV attempt to create an imaginary equivalence that doesn't actually exist in the real world. Bearcat 01:12, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Matthew DeCosta or Mathieu Da Costa?

What's the correct spelling? Both spellings appear in this article. Spylab 23:54, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Improved definition

I changed the opening to be more accurate and simple. The old definition left out many people who are considered, and consider themselves, black Canadians. For example, the old definition referred to citizens, which excludes people who have landed immigrant status. Also some black people might not be able to directly trace their ancestry back to Africa.

The term black Canadian refers to black people who reside in Canada. Most black Canadians could trace their ancestry back to people who were indigenous to Africa. The vast majority have relatively recent origins in the Caribbean, while others trace their lineage to the first slaves brought by British and French colonists to British North America.

Spylab 00:01, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Article needs references

This article desperately needs references. There are many stastical and historical claims that need to be backed up by reliable sources, instead as accepted as fact on the word of whoever added them to the article. Spylab 00:04, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "related groups" info removed from infobox

For dedicated editors of this page: The "Related Groups" info was removed from all {{Infobox Ethnic group}} infoboxes. Comments may be left on the Ethnic groups talk page. Ling.Nut 23:19, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Harriet Beecher Stowe

The statement "One example is Harriet Beecher Stowe, author of Uncle Tom's Cabin, who is buried in Dresden, Ontario" in the article, noting the "sizable community in Nova Scotia and Southern Ontario who trace their ancestry to freed American slaves" is completely false as Harriet Beecher Stowe is white and is buried at Phillips Academy in Andover, Massachusetts. Donkeys4ever 20:40, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

You are right, I have removed it. Thanks for pointing out. Dina 20:48, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Assessment

I have assessed this as Start Class, as it contains more detail and organization than would be expected of a Stub, but requires more in-line citations and an expansion of the prose. I have assessed this as low importance as it is a highly specific topic within Canada. Cheers, CP 16:31, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:AnightinVienna.jpg

Image:AnightinVienna.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot 11:48, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Regions with significant populations"

For now, I suggest leaving British Columbia out of this section in the infobox. BC doesn't have a large percentage of black people in it's cities like Vancouver and Victoria. I think that this section should be changed to say "predominantly Eastern Canada", since the vast majority of black people live there. What do you guys think? Blackjays1 (talk) 19:14, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] European Origins

Seems kind of irrelavant we know the whole world is mixed, unless we are saying these are mulattos it is not a relevant statement. Considering Canada is 90 percent white it is more likely that there are white people with black ancestry, than vice versa, espcially considering how much many more black men there are than women, according to this page. If blacks are marrying whites and we are the majority it only makes sense that there kids will marry white and usually someone who is one quarter black don't look all that different than us regular whites. Saying someone is 1/8 of a race is kind of irrelvant, I highly doubt anyone in Canada is pure unless they are a F.O.B. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ihba (talk • contribs) 17:26, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Some white Canadians who have black ancestry, don't know they are part black. Some do know, but they have denied their black roots. I agreed, the whole world is mixed. Homer33 04:22, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Origins definition

Right now there are some problems with this intro: Black Canadians or African Canadians are designations used for people of African descent who reside in Canada. The term is used by and of Canadian citizens who trace their ancestry back to people who were indigenous to Africa. The majority have relatively recent origins in the Caribbean, while some trace their lineage to the first slaves brought by British and French colonists to the mainland of North America. A minority have recent African roots.

-What exactly do we mean by african descent, most carribean people do not consider them selves anything to do with africans -Aren't all people from africa? -The part about sub-saharan africa is definitely wrong. Their are white people from zimbabwe and south africa here but they don't call themseleves black. As well Sudanese, Chadian, malian, western saharan, and other saharan people almost always consider themselves black. As well it would ignore that people from place like papua new guinea and other black looking polynesian people almost always consider themselves black and are seen so as society. even though they have nothing to do with africa -I don't really know if we can make a geographical definition of race that can be accurate, or any definition better than black people are those who look black or simply are black(which doesn't give any information really). The idea that all black people come from africa works really well on paper, but in reality when you see a black person from a middle eastern country (who got their through slavery, or migration or whatever 1000s of years ago) you still know their black. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ihba (talk • contribs) 00:47, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

1) By 'African descent' – meaning that every Black Canadian person either has recent African heritage, or their ancestors were taken by the Europeans, from Africa to North America (and the Caribbean). You claim that "most carribean people do not consider them selves anything to do with africans", but Caribbean people aren't stupid, they know that the roots of African-Caribbeans are in Africa. The aftermath of slavery created the Rastafari movement, and the Back to Africa movement (started by Marcus Garvey of Jamaica). Just because certain Caribbean people in Canada object to the title "African Canadian", doesn't mean that their roots aren't from Africa.
2) Yes, history has evidence that humans originate from Africa, but the vast majority of it's inhabitants are and were 'black people'.
3) The part about Sub-Saharan Africa is definitely RIGHT. The vast majority of Black Africans live, and have lived in this part of Africa for centuries. Most Black Canadians can trace their ancestry to this region. When blacks were captured for slavery, the Europeans definitely didn't go in the extremely hot and rural Sahara desert to look for slaves. You are right in the sense that not ALL blacks in Canada have roots in the Sub-Saharan, but history shows that Almost all Black Canadians can trace their ancestry to the Sub-Saharan.
4) Your just trying to complicate things with your last point, so I wont get into it.
You should really save those questions for the Black people and Africa articles. Blackjays1 (talk) 07:02, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Numbers

According to some studies by McGill university the amount of blacks may be seriously under represented as only 1/2 of Jamaicans and Haitians are identiifying themselves on black in censuses.

"The report is a response to one consequence of African-Canadian diversity: the fact that almost half of us do not identify ourselves as "black" on Canadian census documents. Indeed, 43 percent of African-heritage respondents to the 1991 census listed themselves as French or British, or as Barbadian, Ethiopian, Ghanaian, Haitian, Somali, Jamaican, Trinidadian / Tobagonian, etc., leading to a serious undercounting of African-heritage Canadians. Wally Boxhill, a former Statistics Canada employee, re-cast the numbers to include the above groups as Black Canadians. This means that, as of 1991, there were 504, 290 blacks in Canada, not 366,625 as formerly counted."(http://news-archive.mcgill.ca/w97/black.htm)

This would mean that there are actually 1.38 or 38% more black Canadians than the stats actually show —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ihba (talk • contribs) 01:13, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

It's too hard to sort that out, and it would take way too long. I can only suggest that we do our census like the U.S. census. In the U.S., if you are black, you only have the choice of selecting "African American" and "Hispanic or Latino". Blackjays1 (talk) 07:19, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
I'd note that the statistic you're citing here is from a study conducted on the 1991 census. There have been three censuses since then, and the number of Black Canadians in all of those is much closer to Boxhill's revised estimate than to the 1991 data. Which means things have improved since Clarke's article (which is also ten years old now). I've included this source in the article, although it had to be cast in a somewhat different context than what it would seem here. Bearcat (talk) 17:36, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Sources to investigate?

I came across references to these two books, which sound interesting. If anyone has access to them, perhaps you could add info from them directly to the article.

  • From Slavery to the Ghetto the Story of the Negro in the Maritimes, Wedderburn, H.A.J., pg. 1
  • Beneath the Clouds of the Promised Land-The Survival of Nova Scotia's Blacks Vol. 1 1600 -1800, Pachai Bridglal pgs. 33

BrainyBabe (talk) 09:46, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

This is a ficionalised account, and as such cannot be included directed, but the notes to it suggest further sources. http://www.shunpiking.com/bhs/longwalk.htm BrainyBabe (talk) 10:43, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Debate - Politically incorrect term?

This may sound like I'm going crazy, but I (Harold26) find it is politically incorrect to call someone (or a group of people) a "Black Canadian" because it could be found as racism. It's not that it is offensive, it just doesn't seem right at all to call them that. Of course, that's my opinion, and I'm not asking for the page to be moved. If you have any questions, please contact me on my talk page. Harold26 (c) 06:03, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

It's certainly a problematic term, no question. But right now there isn't actually an alternative to it: Caribbean-Canadians, as a rule, don't care to be identified or referred to as "African-Canadian". So while it is always preferable to identify individual people as specifically as possible (i.e. Jamaican-Canadian, Trinidadian-Canadian, Nigerian-Canadian, etc.), unfortunately "Black Canadian" is still the standard term in Canada for the community as a whole when it's necessary to refer to them collectively. Bearcat (talk) 07:29, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
I'll agree with Bearcat, although Black Canadian may be insulting to some, I don't think it should change unless a suitable alternative can be found.Ghyslyn (talk) 23:39, 4 June 2008 (UTC)