Talk:Bird

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[edit] Bird scales

I can't believe it. I came here to learn something about the scales on birds' legs and this article doesn't even mention this feature of avian anatomy. Like if birds were entirely covered with feathers! Is there any article in Wikipedia that discussed that subject? — Kpalion(talk) 23:12, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I can see that deserves a line. I'll look it up and add something. Sabine's Sunbird talk 23:48, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

I'll volunteer to do it. I have here Avian Anatomy; Integument volumes I and II, by Lucas and Stettenheim. It is extremely detailed about the structure and diversity of avian scales. I'll try to get that up in the next few days.Jbrougham (talk) 22:14, 14 March 2008 (UTC)


[edit] Westivoja

It seems to me that this user continued reversions are no longer in good faith, and \I've posted a warning on his talk page Jimfbleak (talk) 06:25, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Good faith in what? Evolution? No way.69.217.174.69 (talk) 20:01, 31 March 2008 (UTC) Westivoja

[edit] Did Dinosaurs Evolve to Birds?

In textbooks and this website dinosaurs are said to have evolved to birds. They state it as fact, not theory birds arose from non-birds and humans from non-humans nobody can rightly deny these facts. Well, I did some thinking on the matter of Dinosaurs evolving into birds and I found some apparent flaws. First of all, Dinosaurs are cold blooded and birds warm-blooded and a bird having such a low body temeture like the dinosaur would die in a matter of minutes. Additionally, during the process of evolving the creature would have wings too small, legs not fit to get food and too heavy to fly. Resulting in a death related to not being able to eat or drink (water). Also almost every Dinosaur-bird "fossil" has been found to be a fake. I wouldn't be suprised if " Archaeopteryx" was a fake. Now you know there is no possible way Dinosaurs could have evolved to birds. Now the Evolution theory is in question. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.229.179.200 (talk) 19:45, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, all of your claims are wrong. Cold-blooded or partially cold-blooded birds would not die instantly. In fact the extremely successful subclass of birds enantiornithes may have been only partially warm-blooded (compared to modern birds at least). Also, most scientists think dinosaurs were not cold-blooded but at least partially warm-blooded themselves. There are other uses for wings other than flying that would be beneficial. Display, brooding, WAIR, etc. Caudipteryx has very small wings, obviously it used them for something. Nobody says the first birds have to have flown. They may have been flightless. Every published dinosaur-bird fossil has stood up to rigorous testing and are not fake. The only fake one that came close to being published and named was "Archaeoraptor". all other fakes have been found out before publication--they are fairly obvious to an expert. Even if dinosaurs did not evolve into bird,s the theory of evolution holds up, as it is based on logical principles that simply follow common sense. Something else would have evolved into birds instead. But all evidence points to dinosaurs right now. Dinoguy2 (talk) 00:45, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

See http://www.evolution-facts.org/index.htmor http://www.drdino.com/ to see if it really follows common sense and logic. I didn't say this to be mean. Why would they make fakes if it was "science"? Also, when these "scientists" found bones (supposedly millions of years ago) all they have is bones, not blood. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.236.130.53 (talk) 22:20, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

The fossils of early Cretaceous birds are often found by Chinese peasants and sold to scientists (yay free market!). Occasionally entrepreneurial peasants take several skeletons of different birds and reassemble them in order to create something unique and interesting (and therefore more valuable. Ka-ching$$$$$$!) So it isn't the scientists making the fakes, though they occasionally get taken in (but not for long). Sabine's Sunbird talk 23:17, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

We don't even know if The Geologic column is corect! There are only a few places on Earth where it exists and there are many other "columns" that might mean Birds haven't evolved from anything. Also, Cryptozoology suggests (too much info on Cryptozoology) that Dinosaurs are still alive! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.236.130.53 (talk) 00:28, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Crypotobiology is a load of bollocks and neither of the two subjects you mentioned have much to do with birds. Incidentally, this really isn't relevant to updating this article and Wikipedia is not a discussion forum. Sabine's Sunbird talk 01:24, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Crytozoology is the study of hidden animals, not Crypotobiology. From all the information I have read dinosaurs are still alive wich means most chances are dinosaurs did not evolve into birds. Also, no kind (horse and Iguana for example) has been proven to make a new kind only new species (leapord Frog and Fire belly Toad for example) wich means NO animal has evolved from another animal. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.236.130.236 (talk) 17:01, 18 March 2008 (UTC) Evolution has only been around for two hundred years, creation for six thousand. First prove that dinosaurs did evolve to birds (I think a improvement to the article is to say the following:) Birds have not evolved from anything and the "Geologic column" is merely imagination, althogh fossils are intresting. Logic and common sence follows that evolution is not true and that dinosaurs are still alive in many lakes and swamps (even though they're very hard to find)

Good luck finding reliable sources for that. OhNoitsJamie Talk 18:08, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

I have already found many. What the "Geologic Column" has to do with birds is that the "fact" (highly doubt it) that dinosaurs evolved to birds is that that's what it's based on! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.249.183.193 (talk) 20:49, 21 March 2008 (UTC) Please go to www.evolution-facts.org for information on how evolution has been disproved. I am not the owner of the site. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.229.191.141 (talk) 16:46, 26 March 2008 (UTC) From scientific (real science) research it has been proven that there is NO WAY dinosaurs evolved into dinosaurs. A website about Cryptozoology is currently being constructed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.229.191.141 (talk) 16:52, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

"From all the information I have read dinosaurs are still alive wich means most chances are dinosaurs did not evolve into birds."
Ok, even if dinosaurs are still alive (they're not), this makes no sense. Humans evolved from apes, and yet apes are still alive. Australians descended from Europeans, and yet Europeans are still alive. I descended from my mother, and yet my mother is still alive. Weird, huh? Remember kids--species don't evolve, populations evolve. Dinoguy2 (talk) 22:55, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Nobody has EVER seen a kind make a new kind (Ape,Iguana) only new species. Did the people who taught you that, were they there? The Geologic Column ":The fossils date the rocks but the rocks date the fossils more accurately." was said by a evolutionist. my bet is that your not a cryptozoologist, so you wouldn't know about the dinosauers that are still alive. That's a GIANT subject. Too much information. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.249.181.214 (talk) 00:08, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Your points seem to jump around as if they lead on from one another without actually doing so. So I'll just point out that 'kind' isn't a scientific term and isn't recognised as meaning much of anything and that crypobiologists don't know about the dinosaurs either, as if they did know there would be proof and if there was proof they wouldn't fall under the category crpytozoology anymore. I'm sure most of us would love for a brontosaurus to turn up in the Congo but until one does it is fairly safe to dimsiss the idea with a distainful wave of the hand. *bah*. Sabine's Sunbird talk 00:26, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
"So I'll just point out that 'kind' isn't a scientific term and isn't recognised as meaning much of anything "
Right. Species has a definition (sort of). Kind does not. Therefore, 'kind' is not a real entity. It seems roughly equivilent to a vertebrate family or an invertebrate order or phylum. Creationists tend to forget that Linnean ranks, while sometimes useful, are not real. Dinoguy2 (talk) 05:00, 28 March 2008
A kind is like for example: a iguana and frog. A species is like green iguana and fire belly toad. that's what i mean when I say kind and species.
You're right when you say no one has seen a "kind" make a new "kind"; that takes place over a very long time period, and humans aren't/haven't been around that long. However, there are plenty of examples of things evolving towards new species—and over longer periods of time, the same processes eventually lead to new "kinds". Read the excellent book Beak of the Finch by Jonathon Weiner to learn more. MeegsC | Talk 17:56, 28 March 2008 (UTC) You're right! Species making new species is called micro-evolution, the ONLY type of evolution that has been observed, but it is NOT proof for: Macrevolution, organic evolution, cosmic evolution, or stellar evolution.

There has been rapid fossilisation! One showed a fish giving birth. Another showed fish mating. Another showed dinosaurs in a swimming position. Plesiosaurs (my favorite) have been found many miles from the ocean. Clams have been found fossilized with they're shells closed! Petrified trees have been found standing up, through the "geologic column" (see qotes) This is more proof of the flood (you call it mythology) than "millions and millions of years". In our textbooks we are no longer taught frog + magic (a kiss)=prince. now we are taught frog + millions and millions of years = prince! See, the first fairy tale got a little to boring so they (Charles Lyell, Charles Darwin by the way all he got was a degree in theology and they call him a great scientist) made up a diffrent fairy tale. When you read "millions of years ago" this is the interpetation: once upon a time. Did all the flood water come from rain? Ofcourse not that would be impossible! The water came from the water chambers, when thay broke open (that's where the fault lines come from) they went about twenty miles in the air! They hit the top part of the atmosphere and those parts of ice (maybe suspended by the magnetic field) flew off into space into comets, some turned into the rings around (I think, there may be more) uranus and saturn. One came back, hit the north pole so it was 300 below zero and froze them (mammoths), with food (undigested) in there stomachs in roughly five hours. Noah had each kind of land animal (not bugs or marine reptiles) as I described erlier. When they got off the ark (not the little sailboat seen in children's books) dinosaurs and birds were among them. Also, you (dinoguy2) said that we evolved from apes, we did not! Look at http://www.evolution-facts.org/index.htm, wich has an online book: "The Evolution Cruncher". Okay the age of the earth (what it has to do with birds: little time = Evolution silly = birds did not evolve from dinosaurs). The earth is shrinking, there was some testing after the 50's I believe. That means it used to (earth) be going faster, wich means "200 million years ago" the day and night cycle would be huge! Also, the wind's force is stronger when the earth rotates faster, that explains how the dinos went extinct (a couple small ones are probably still alive)! They were blown away! The moon is getting away from earth, a couple inches per year (nothing to worry about, nothing you can do about it anyway) wich means "200 million years ago" the tides were huge! The dinos were mooned! There are many others download "The Age of the Earth" seminar at http://www.drdino.com/downloads.php.

Qotes "The rocks date the fossils but the fossils date the rocks more accurately." - O'rouke J. "Let me control the textbooks and I will control the state."- Adolf Hitler NOTE: Adolf Hitler was a very strong believer in evolution. The improvement for the bird article is: "Birds were created by God on the fifth day around 6,000 years ago. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.229.191.187 (talk) 18:25, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

you badly need to cough up some real (non-creationist/claptrap) sources and get off your soapbox. this isn't the place for it. you're wasting bandwidth and time (yours and ours -- but more importantly, ours). you're obviously not looking for debate but for conversions... want to talk birds and dinos? fine. if not, just keep it to yourself and your buddies at Answers in Genesis (or wherever it is you came from). - Metanoid (talk, email) 19:18, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Heres a problem: Evolutionist sites will not disprover their own theory, will they? Hey I didn't come from anybody I just heared how absurd evolution is and thought I should tell some people. But, you're right, I will stay on topic (my opinion: I wasn't wasting your time) 1. Okay, you didn't have to read all that I'll just tell you the truth: Dinosaurs did not evolve to birds. I'm sorry that you got so mad becaise evolution is a silly religon. Dinosaurs did not evolve to birds. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.229.191.187 (talk) 19:23, 28 March 2008 (UTC) I came across a creationist article about dinos-birds at http://www.genesispark.org/genpark/birds/birds.htm. I think that would be intresting to read. I think a Answers in Genesis article has something about it. But in REAL science we prove it happend and if there are any mistakes or lies we get rid of them. First prove they did evolve then I'll point out any mistakes or lies (don't worry I'll reasearch it good).

here's a tip: learn how to place and sign your comments good too (while you're at it). - Metanoid (talk, email) 20:38, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Shouldn't we stay on topic?76.229.191.187 (talk) 23:18, 28 March 2008 (UTC) - Unfortunetly I do not have an account

At least evolution is a testable theory, and not just mumbo jumbo inspired by unthinking faith Jimfbleak (talk) 06:46, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunetly evolution is not testable. One men, after seeing it was impossible said "I would rather believe in the impossible (evolution) then Jesus Christ." Go to http://www.evolution-facts.org/Handbook%20TOC.htm to see how scientific evolution is. You say "Archeoapteryx (or whatever you call it) is proof that birds evolved from dinosaurs. Before the flood (I believe it) they were very intelligent thus inabling them to fool with dino and bird DNA and make Archeoapteryx (or whatever you call it). Once there was a mouse with a human ear. 69.217.174.69 (talk) 19:55, 31 March 2008 (UTC) Westivoja

Might I suggest downloading Firefox, and then the add on that has a built in spell checker? Then possibly try and write a few sentences that link from one another in a logical sense? Sabine's Sunbird talk 20:22, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Oops! Sorry.69.217.174.69 (talk) 22:41, 31 March 2008 (UTC) I don't have an account

This is all utter BS. evolution has been proven, creationism disproven. We are not changing wikipedia to include suspect propaganda without reliable sources. Sliver Slave (talk) 23:37, 10 April 2008 (UTC) Go ahead, but evolution is not a reliable theory. So show me some proof.76.229.144.206 (talk) 21:47, 11 April 2008 (UTC) Westivoja

Evolution is only ont a fact if you disagree with any of the following statements--
  • 1. environments change over time.
  • 2. some traits are better suited to some environments more then other.
  • 3. animals with better traits for their environment are statistically more likely to reproduce
  • 4. traits are passed down through reproduction.
Logically, if all of these are true, evolution must happen due simply to the nature of life, just as water must take the shape of its container due to the nature of liquid. Unless there is some outside force actively hindering the process to some degree or only allowing it to proceed to a certain point, which has never been demonstrated. Dinoguy2 (talk) 00:10, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

nicely put. - Metanoid (talk, email) 04:12, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

To have dinos - birds a MAJOR change in DNA and RNA would have to happen. By the way (to Dinogy2), if evolution is true how don't you know one of those brain connection aren't backwards? How can you trust your own thoughts? How did thoughts evolve? Emotions? Kindness? What if you were the inventer of the computer, and you had two computers fighting saying "Does Dinoguy2 exist?". Then they make absurd predictions of gradually, over time they got all they're circutry. How did birds get wings? Did the poor dino say "I got to evolve some wings." Then did it happen?76.236.135.224 (talk) 16:27, 12 April 2008 (UTC) Westivoja
Please do not continue to use this page as a soapbox for your religious beliefs. There are plenty of websites which encourage such postings, and your comments would be appropriate there. This is a page for improving the Bird article, which will not ever say "God created birds on the fifth day." MeegsC | Talk 16:34, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
Huh? I can't see what the removal of Archeaopteryx thom the lead (I didn't like it there, it said it was the oldest known bird even though it as arbitrarily choosen as that the oldest bird) has to do with religious beliefs.confused by edit comment Narayanese (talk) 23:15, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
Narayanese, this was directed at the anonymous IP who's been posting pro-creation messages to this thread since the very beginning. MeegsC | Talk 08:21, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
Ah yes. Sorry. Narayanese (talk) 08:59, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

MeegsC, he's been warned more than once -- much more. but he's found a comfortable soapbox and nestled in. and as he's been here for quite some time now wasting space with people actually responding to him, he's going to continue to foam at the mouth till an admin does something about him. what, I don't know. - Metanoid (talk, email) 01:33, 13 April 2008 (UTC) Please, I would like some evidence that dinos evolved into birds.69.217.167.107 (talk) 22:49, 13 April 2008 (UTC) Westivoja

This is a talk page for discussing how to improve our entry on birds, not to discuss the merits of current scientific theory on the origin of birds. If you wish to know more about the some of evidence that supports evolution of birds from dinosaurs you may be able to find some useful information on the wikipedia page on the origin of birds (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_birds). If you still have some questions after reading the article I suggest you look at some of the external links on that page. Coffeeassured (talk) 13:38, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] how

when you find a bird in some ferns and you try to nest it how long will it take for the bird to hatch? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.47.106.159 (talk) 14:50, 25 March 2008 (UTC) Good question. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.229.191.141 (talk) 16:49, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm not quite sure what you're asking here. Did you find a bird, or an egg? If an egg, it may not hatch if you're trying to "nest" it, because (unless you have an incubator) you'll probably find it difficult to keep the eggs at an appropriate temperature. MeegsC | Talk 23:59, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] line pulled out until we can cite it

[edit] Why revert my edit?

Why did you revert my little edit about birds being dinosaurs? I'm just asking. T.Neo (talk) 19:21, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Please read "Did dinosaurs evolve to birds" just above. MeegsC | Talk 19:57, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
why? its generally accepted that birds evolved from dinosaurs.Sliver Slave (talk) 23:38, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
Sorry, wrong section—I meant Birds or Avian dinosaurs.  :P (And ignore the last post there...) MeegsC | Talk 23:39, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
I reverted since there are better ways to state things about clades. See Talk:Bird#Birds_or_Avian_Dinosaurs.3F above. Shyamal (talk) 01:24, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, fine, but birds are dinosaurs- in fact, at the very beginning of the article I read that birds are bipedal, endothermic (warm-blooded), vertebrate animals that lay eggs (basic description of a theropod) . Plus we have a whole segment on the origin of birds. Wikipedia, although claiming to strive for NPOV, follows the general scientific veiw of things, for example, the article on global warming. Why not this? Most paleontologists belive that birds are dinosaurs. I am not going on a creationist rant as above. In fact, I am anti-creationist. Because the birds-being-dinosaurs theory is relativly new, and birds-being unique theory is as old as humankind, People arent ready to accept that dinosaurs arent long-dead scaly lizards, but in fact the most diverse living clade on Earth, and the sort of thing we come into contact with daily. Birds didn't evolve from dinosaurs, they are dinosaurs- there are many gray areas between "bird" and "dinosaur"- for example, oviraptorids, dromeasaurs and therizinosaurs. Ask most paleontologists and they would probably agree with you. T.Neo (talk) 08:38, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes, they're dinosaurs. And archosaurs. And maniraptorans. And paravians. And sarcopterygians. Etc etc. Why say they are theropod dinosaurs and not, say, tyrannoraptoran reptilimorphs? In phylogenetic taxonomy, "are" and "evolved from" are practically synonyms anyway. Highlighting the fact that birds ARE dinosaurs over the fact that they EVOLVED FROM dinosaurs smacks of political rhetoric at worst, dubious trivia at best. Especially in an article intended for a popular audience, most of which who will not have any understanding of phylogenetics. They can read the relevant section and learn these things if that's what they're researching--best not to make things too complicated otherwise.

Also: "Because the birds-being-dinosaurs theory is relativly new" It's not new, really. The only thing new is not the theory, but the language being used. Our understanding of the basic relationships have not changed all that much, it's just that we've changed what the words "dinosaur" and "bird" mean by changing classification systems and definitions. We didn't so much discover that birds are dinosaurs, we've forced them to be dinosaurs by changing the definition of "dinosaur" to include them. Dinoguy2 (talk) 09:48, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

  • I get your point.
  • When I said "relativly new" I meant that it has only recently caught on, whereas there have been thousands of years of total non-understanding of what birds evolved from.
  • Cheers.
  • T.Neo (talk) 19:55, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] sensu specification needs to be added

The circumscription for Aves should be specified like (sensu Gauthier, 1986) or whatever else (Clarke, 2004?) is chosen but where does this go in the taxobox ? Shyamal (talk) 06:48, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

I have posted the question on the taxobox usage page as well. [1] has a nice summary. Shyamal (talk) 07:12, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
It's a taxobox, not a cladobox. We only should be citing the nominal author (Linnaeus, 1758). Various phylogenetic definitions can be discussed in the text. Incidentally, the oldest definition of Aves is Charig 1985 as noted here [2] Dinoguy2 (talk) 09:37, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
Agree fully that it can be discussed in text. But when we have space for synonyms, there is not space for handling taxon circumscription changes. Of course it is quite a complicated story to try and tell in a box !Shyamal (talk) 14:14, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] First sentence of lead

I find it has rather too many technical words (bipedal, endothermic, tetrapod, clade), plus I'd like to change to bit about "earliest known bird" since I suspect if an earlier bird-like dino was found it wouldn't be considered a bird, so it's more earliest by definition (not that there seems to be a definition of bird everyone agrees on). I should also point out that the 150–200 Ma date is without any visible source. (oh, it's for the whole Jurassic, not for when birds evolved) Hmm, the latest ancestor of moderna birds and Archaeopteryx hasn't been found, so finding an older bird is a possibility... but I still don't think it should be in the lead. Narayanese (talk) 09:21, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

What about something like this? :

Birds (class Aves) are bipedal, endothermic (warm-blooded), vertebrate animals that lay eggs. There are around 10,000 living species, making them the most numerous tetrapod vertebrates. They inhabit ecosystems across the globe, from the Arctic to the Antarctic. Birds range in size from the 5 cm (2 in) Bee Hummingbird to the 2.7 m (9 ft) Ostrich. The fossil record indicates that birds evolved from theropod dinosaurs during the Jurassic period, with the Late Jurassic Archaeopteryx, c 155–150 Ma (million years ago), as the earliest recognised bird. Birds are regarded as the only clade of dinosaurs that survived the Cretaceous–Tertiary extinction event around 65.5 Ma.

Narayanese (talk) 10:25, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for putting in the "only surviving clade of dinosaurs" section. It makes the matter much clearer then my edit T.Neo (talk) 14:20, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

I think that the inclusion of Archaeopteryx is worthwhile. I like the revised line about the only clade of dinosaurs that survived , it makes cladistic sense without nonsense such as referring to birds as dinosaurs outright (which makes about as much sense as calling mammals amphibians because they evolved from them). Sabine's Sunbird talk 20:56, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
Looks good. May want to add something about feathers into the lead list of "ket characters," as all birds have feathers (even if some definitions make it such that some non-birds have feathers as well). Dinoguy2 (talk) 00:09, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

"Paleontologists regerd birds as the only surviving clade of dinosaurs" so right. Creationists don't. T.Neo (talk) 08:44, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

"Most" paleontologists. There are still a few holdouts. Dinoguy2 (talk) 11:51, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

I know that there are paleontologists that oppose the birds evolved from dinosaurs theory, Dinoguy, Im not stupid. T.Neo (talk) 12:13, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Avian Dinosaurs?

WTF? Why does "avian dinosaur" redirect here? If I wanted to learn about birds, I would have saved myself some keystrokes and typed "bird" instead of "avian dinosaur". 68.190.147.184 (talk) 06:04, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

The term "non-avian dinosaurs" refers to dinosaurs that aren't birds, so I'm guessing that "avian dinosaurs" refers to dinosaurs that are birds. — Wenli (reply here) 22:31, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Not all palaeontologists support the idea that birds are dinosaurs

Most do, but a few support the idea they evolved from earlier archosaurs. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.30.202.28 (talk) 21:38, 6 June 2008 (UTC)