Talk:Bioidentical hormone replacement therapy

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[edit] See below

I've removed references to Wiley. There are at most a few thousand women on the Wiley Protocol, and a few MILLION on other forms of BHRT, and millions more on HRT. Stick to the subject. If you want to malign Wiley, do it on her page. This entries are just an attempt by someone to advance their anti-Wiley agenda in as many places as possible. Neil Raden 23:17, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

The "discussion" below is blatant advertising, which even includes the phone number of the promoter. I don't think that the article itself is advertising. --KeepItClean 23:10, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

[Advertisement removed per Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines and Wikipedia is not a soapbox.]

It is not acceptable to use Wikipedia as a medium for blatant advertising. This is as true of talk pages as it is of articles. Talk pages, per the guidelines, are for discussion related to creating a better encyclopedia, not for self-promotion. See also Wikipedia:Conflict of interest.--Srleffler 06:29, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
There isn't anything on Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines that suggests that advertising is forbidden in the Talk pages. In fact, the word "Advertising" doesn't appear on Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines at all. What DOES appear on Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines is "Do not edit other's comments." Robertwharvey 01:31, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
You missed the part of Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines, where it says "A talk page is research for the article, and the policies that apply to articles also apply to talk pages." The policy What Wikipedia is not makes it clear that advertising is not acceptable on Wikipedia. This policy takes precedence over the guideline that one should not edit others' talk page postings. --Srleffler 02:47, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] POV

While not completely biased, this article does not appear to comply with Wikipedia's policy on Neutral Point of View. The article does not seem to discuss the views of critics of this therapy, and does not put it in context. What is the mainstream medical view of this type of therapy vs. the conventional type?--Srleffler 06:32, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Looking at the number of people using this type of therapy vs a conventional form of therapy, I'd hazard a guess that the POV of the article does represent the mainstream medical view of this type of therapy. A new form of therapy promoting itself should be able to show tests, data, nonobjective facts that support choosing the new form of therapy over any previous form. As the article states, such has not yet created for this form of therapy. However, there is data showing that oral adminstration of these types of hormones is, generally, ineffective. Thus, a neutral POV would seem to indicate that advertising along is driving this form of therapy, since positive factual support is (by and large) absent but negative factual support has already been documented. 97.93.88.4 (talk) 05:07, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Advertising in Page

Several of the links in the lower body of this article go directly to a site that is selling creams and other items for hormone replacement therapy. The site, hormoneprofiles.com, is essentially using this wiki page as a forward for thier products.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Rompingreason (talk • contribs) 22:52, November 26, 2006.

[edit] References

I notice that a bunch of references were removed, including the books by Suzanne Somers. While I approve of attempts to clean up the article and reduce POV, I wonder if this went too far. Whatever the merits of her arguments, it seems that Ms. Somers is a notable spokesperson for bioidentical hormone replacement therapy and has written several books promoting it. This probably deserves some mention in the article. Additionally, removal of references should always be handled with some care. If it's possible that some of the material still in the article was drawn from or inspired by her books, they should remain as listed references for the article.--Srleffler 03:28, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

True, but the Somers books are more about personal experiences instead of scientific data - they're secondary references at best. I will add back in a reference to her most relevant/well-known book. --Marumari 21:30, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

It should also be noted that Wyeth Pharmacueticals, one manufacturer of HRT has filed a "citizen petition" with the FDA over their concern over the use of bioidentical hormones. Wyeth has urged the FDA to stop compounding pharmacies from using estriol in alternative HRT, which many women switched to after the result of the WHI study results. Bioidenticals are cutting into the market share of "big pharma," and they are holding fire to the FDA to pull all other products that may complete with them. The FDA's actions are nothing more than pharmaceutical companies pulling their puppet strings, and, once again, have nothing to do with sciencePharmacy01 (talk) 21:09, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] FDA APPROVAL

In the small caveat posted in this article regarding the FDA status of BHRT treatments, the author suggests that bioidentical hormones are not approved by the FDA and that there is no substantive clinical research suggesting their safety or efficacy. This is patently false. There are, in fact, numerous studies which suggest clinical efficacy of 17-Beta Estradiol in combination with noresthisterone acetate (as opposed to MPA as the active progesterone) - several of which actually demonstrate possible cardiovascular advantages well above that of traditional HRT.

It should also be noted in this article that 17-Beta Estradiol accounts for the vast majority of treatment models used in Europe for HRT in menopausal patients.

On the issue of FDA approval, there are quite a few BHRT products that carry FDA approval... Vivelle, Estrogel, Estrace, Prometrium, etc., all have FDA approval, and, I believe are listed in the Physicians Desk Reference (PDR). Bortsky 15:03, 19 January 2007 (UTC)Bortsky —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Bortsky (talk • contribs) 15:01, 19 January 2007 (UTC).

I see that the "caveat" section has been discussed somewhat here. I hope that debate continues, but, however, also I wanted to let you all know I deleted the current text of the "caveat". The format is not appropriate for the article or an encyclopedia; the information NEEDS to be SYNTHESIZED into the rest of the article. Also, the text must be presented in an unbiased way. The "caveat" cannot act as a disclaimer, cautionary warning before the main text, etc. Please create a section titled "FDA Approval", "Controversy", or something else appropriate. Thanks! JeffreyN 20:28, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

The FDA has issued a warning to several compunding pharmacies, that estriol is not approved for human use, and that the term "bio-identical" is unscientific and misleading. Referrence added to the article. Pustelnik (talk) 12:12, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

You might be interested to know that the Wiley Protocol has never used estriol, believing it to be useless in HRT. Estriol is however the most widely used estrogen in other BHRT, such as biest. Wiley has also begun to use the term biomimedic instead of bioidentical, a point she made in testinony to the US Senate in 2007. Neil Raden (talk) 00:14, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Wiley protocol

There's a lot of flack for and against the Wiley protocol, rather than bunging up this page, I created one for it. WLU 19:31, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

There are literally thousands of variations of BHRT and Wiley is just one of them. The number of women on Wiley is statistically insignificant. Why is it here? Also, by citing it as controversial, it leaves one with the impression that other BHRT regimens are NOT controversial, which is false. I removed it once. Please take it out.

72.205.193.253 17:32, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm going to ask again. Please remove the Wiley Protocol section unless you intend to describe the 15 or 20 more widespread protocols used too. There is no logic to highlighting Wiley here. There are literally millions of people using BHRT but only a few thousand using Wiley. Neil Raden 05:03, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

The Wiley protocol is a type of BHRT, it should be on the page, and if you know of 15-20 other protocols, feel free to add them to the page as well. There is perfect logic to highlighting Wiley here, or at least pointing to the main article. The fact that there is not information about other types of BHRT means the page should be expanded, not truncated. Should you be informed of these other protocols, feel free to add sourced information to the page. Wiley and the Wiley protocol is a well-known type of BHRT because of Somers public, televised advocacy of the protocol, so it is quite natural that there would be considerable interest and more information about it on this page than other types of protocols. WLU 17:15, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Again, I must protest this editor's postion here as well as on the Wiley-related articles. Why is Wiley singled out here when there are many varieties of BHRT? And why, in particular, is it stated that the Wiley Protocol is "sharply criticized" when, in fact, ALL BHRT is sharply criticized by the FDA, the NIH, the Endocrine Society and, especially, the pharmaceutical industry? I insist on balance. Remove the reference to Wiley completely, or clearly point out that ALL BHRT is controversial. 72.205.193.253 06:54, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
Sorry, forgot to sign the above. Neil Raden 06:56, 27 August 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nraden (talk • contribs)
Aren't there any editors here to fix this? This whole page is sort of a mess, but I object, once again, to singling out the Wiley Protocol as being controversial. ALL BHRT is controversial. Why not just say that? There is no reason for the Wiley Protocol to have its own section unless the article details the myriad other protocols that are used with BHRT. I would be sufficient to say that the WP is significantly different and refer people to the WP article, but it is also devoid of detail until we can hopefully get it straightented out, but it's been hacked up by the same editor WLU who inserted it here. I am unable to make these changes because I am COI. Neil Raden 00:04, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Bioidentical

To the best of my knowledge, there are no commercials by Suzzane Somers promoting BHRT. There have been, I think, commercials promoting her books, but they are episodic with a release. I think this sentence is misleading, as if she is constantly pitching BHRT on television. She talks about it when she is an invited guest. 72.205.193.253 17:38, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Patents

This article says "Because bioidentical hormones are natural, they are not patentable." Is this true? If it is, a source should be cited. I'm pretty sure there are a large number of natural compounds patented in some way or another...e.g. epo, taq polymerase, etc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mauvila (talk • contribs)

That's because something else about the compound has been patented instead--like the delivery method, or something it's bound with, that kind of thing. For example, in the case of bioidentical estrogen via patch delivery, it's the patch delivery system that's patented. If you could patent bioidentical things, then you could do things like patent hemoglobin and charge people money for it, and nobody else could supply it. QuizzicalBee 16:01, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Editor Needed

I am COI so I won't edit this article.However, Suzanne Sommers does NOT promote the Wiley Protocol and is not a spokesperson for it. In the december 2007 issue of Discover magazine, she said, "I do not endorse Wiley. I do not get my hormones from her." I've asked before, but will someone please remove this statement from this article as well as Wiley Protocol and [T.S. Wiley]]. Thank you. Neil Raden (talk) 00:10, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Estriol

All of the comments in this article about estriol, with the exception of the FDA not approving it, are highly speculative. There are no studies that estriol "protects the breast," only that it binds to ERbeta receptor, which doesn't prove anything. For example, to say that there is no proof that BHRT is safer because there are no long-term clinical trials, then to speculate on the role of estriol based on an observed effect at the molecular level, is just bad science. Estriol (E3) is a spent metabolite of estradiol (E2). If E2 is present in serum at appropriate levels, it is used and estriol results. There is no need to "supplement" it. Please note that estriol is the most widely (biest) used estrogen in compounded BHRT, except the Wiley Protocol, which uses only estradiol. Neil Raden (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 16:20, 1 February 2008 (UTC)