Talk:Bin Laden family

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This page has been vandalized with "dustbin" Laden..

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I removed the bit about the policies of the family being secretive like all billionaire families. This seems meaningless to me. What families have 'policies' and if they do, how many are public? --Lee Hunter 16:37, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)

(This editor also removed a reference to the New York Times and some factual material. The 5 April 2005 edit should be carefully vetted. --Wetman 20:20, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC))

The reference to the New York Times was irrelevant and didn't change the content. As far as I can tell, everything I removed was either POV, speculation, or fanciful. For example, Victoria College in Alexandria was described as the "former educational bastion of the British Empire". I'm not sure what that is supposed to mean but the college wasn't founded until 1902, rather late to have a major role in the British Empire. --Lee Hunter 22:11, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Bin laden : a movie star ?

I have been trying to find Bin laden's web videos for quite a while now, unsuccesfully. I dont know why it is so difficult to find them (maybe the us government is responsible for that ?). But in my opinion, one of the main goal of an encyclopedia is to show everything, even the worst things (like bin laden's ideas). If anyone has got a web adresse, it'd be really nice to put it here.

[edit] An interesting switch

An anon. User:70.32.84.133 attempted to substitute "an ultralight" for the plane crashed by Salem bin Laden in San Antonio, Texas 1988. He was in fact flying a BAC 1-11, a short-range jet airliner which had been bought in July 1977 by Prince Mohammed Ben Fahd (PBS "Frontline"). That plane's flight log had been a subject of some interest because the same plane was said to have been used in the summer of 1980 by negotiators in the so-called "October Surprise" . For a private interview in Madrid, an ultralight would be impractical for a London-Madrid hop; a BAC 1-11 ideal. A very interesting attempted switch. --Wetman 04:49, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
The article is this way again --- however, the first source I found [1] also said it was an ultralight. It also said he owned three more ultralights and a 707 jet. That jet may be the one you're talking about, and would be interesting to detail separately. Wnt (talk) 23:32, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] The flight log

The following text was removed frm the article :

"The plane's flight log had been a subject of some interest because the same plane was said to have been used in the summer of 1980 by negotiators in the so-called "October Surprise" (an alleged conspiracy by Ronald Reagan's supporters to delay resolution of the Iran Hostage Crisis until after the US presidential election)." --Wetman 00:14, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
  • The Frontline page at http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/binladen/who/family.html was the only source for the claim that Salem bin Laden was killed while flying the BAC 1-11. That page has been revised by PBS to reflect that the plane in which bin Laden was killed was not a BAC 1-11. Therefore, I removed the above-quoted text relating to the BAC 1-11.Jbull 00:27, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Interesting Arabic

I've removed the following from this page:

اسامه بن لادن والجبان معتوه. وليس اراده الله لمقاتله الاميركيين. انها ليست ينفيديلس. ايران ايضا عدو ويجب ان يكون الهدف الحقيقي من الجهاد. وتسعي الولايات المتحده وغضب هاءل وتقديم راث الصادره في العالم العربي. الله اكبر

It was sandwiched between the first and second paragraphs. The curiousity of it struck me and the translation appears to be the following as per this Arabic translation site:

" Osama bin Laden and the coward one is insane . And he Allah wanted it to its fighter the Americans . It is not Ynfidils .Iran is also an enemy and the target should be the truth "

Interesting eh?

[edit] Flight

Snopes says otherwise about the flight out of the us after 9-11[2]

[edit] Lowercase

I've invited WikiProject Saudi Arabia to comment on this issue. (It doesn't seem correct to have an issue of Arabic orthography in English resolved only by two English speakers.)

The article (when I came to it) has used {{lowercase}} since March 2006[3] and before that, {{wrongtitle}} since November 2004. Clearly the bin prefix to last names is uncapitalized in English except at the beginning of sentences (according to most style guides, anyway). The question is whether the lowercase template is intended for such cases or only for cases where a term is always uncapitalized. In this case, Trovatore believes that the template is misleading, whereas I see it as a helpful guide for editors and readers unfamiliar with Arabic naming. Trovatore has changed the template to a commented editorial note. Is this better or worse? Is the template inappropriate for this context (mabye an actual Arabic name template is needed)? Do readers need an in-article explanation? --Dhartung | Talk 10:07, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

This is a very fair summary; thanks, Dhartung. I'd just like to add that my position is based on the WP stylistic choice that article titles are capitalized initially. A different choice would certainly have been possible; our entry at Dog could very plausibly have been rendered dog, but it isn't, and this is not because of "technical restrictions", but because this is the choice that was explicitly made.
Therefore, in my opinion, the rendering Bin Laden family is very natural for this article title, and there is no need to distract the reader with an unaesthetic, and IMO factually incorrect, warning. The point that seems to have been intended by the template is a different one, something like: "Look, you might think that because bin Laden is a proper name, you would always capitalize it, but this is not the case". My view is that that point does not merit a distracting warning at the top of the article. If it is felt to be sufficiently important, it can be treated in the text.
(What does merit such a warning? Primarily mathematical/scientific symbols that are actually incorrect when capitalized, such as e (mathematical constant). Secondarily, trademarks such as eBay, and proper names that their owners make a specific point of always lowercasing, such as bell hooks.). --Trovatore 21:14, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for inviting an Arabic speaker to contribute here. My suggestion would be to keep it capitalized as in Bin Ladin or Binladin. The use of bin in surnames is different from its use in names such as Muhammad bin Saud or Abdul Aziz bin Muhammad bin Saud , in which it actually denotes the meaning 'son of' and is always uncapitalized. In surnames, bin becomes part of the name (and doesn't just mean 'son of' anymore) and the choice of capitalization or not generally falls to the family. From what I have seen, the name we are concerned with here is generally spelled capitalized, as can be seen from several external links in the article, as well as in several news sources and locations on the net. From personal experience (which might or might not apply here), I know of other families with the bin prefix and they generally choose to spell it (Bin XXX). If you take a look here: list of companies in Saudi Arabia you can see examples of both. I hope this helps resolve the issue. --ReemaS 05:58, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for that response, ReemaS. I agree now there is a difference between the Western-style family name and patronymic usages. I'm thinking we still need to explain, similar to why Osama is Usama to the FBI, how it's used in different contexts ... but that the template (as I argued above) is insufficient to communicate the complexity of usage. --Dhartung | Talk 07:06, 24 September 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Alleged meeting

Although the article references propagandamatrix.com and a column written by Ed Vulliamy to support the claim of the meeting, this remains no more than an allegation, and I have edited the article to reflect this fact. Ordinary Person 03:13, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

It has been reported by major media, although most of the conspiracy sites get the timeline wrong (Bush Sr. was there on Sept. 10, but not Sept. 11). It's probably best to avoid using conspiracy sites as sources. -- Dhartung | Talk 05:32, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Carter Connection

People make a big deal of the fact that George H.W. Bush and Osama Bin Laden's half-brother were at the same conference shortly before 9/11. What doesn't get nearly as much coverage is that the Bin Laden family donated large sums of money to the Jimmy Carter Presidential Library, and if I'm not mistaken, also to Bill Clinton's library fund. Why does this not get any coverage? It's a much stronger connection than "Bin Laden's half-brother (one of his 60-odd siblings) was in the same place as the president's father!" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.50.151.8 (talk) 10:24, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Omar Awad bin Laden, Omar Osama bin Laden, Omar bin Laden

I recently started an article on Omar Osama bin Laden, and I believe the other two names are the same person. Many news articles currently say that Omar Osama is the son of Osama bin Laden, but I've also cited sources that say that Omar bin Laden or Omar Awad are nephews of bin Laden. However, all these articles agree he is the brother of Abdallah or Abdullah the founder of the World Assembly of Muslim Youth (or the World Conference of Muslim Youth?) (some claim he too was involved though he was ~15 at the time). Does anyone have a good source to put all these lingering uncertainties to rest? Wnt (talk) 23:21, 18 January 2008 (UTC)