Talk:Bill O'Reilly (commentator)/Archive 3

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Archive 3
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Contents

2 Disclaimers Now

In addition to the NPOV warning at the top of this article, I've tagged it for clean-up. I think both are warrented, though if we only wanted to have one, I'd stick with the clean-up. It's a sprawling mess even more than it is a biased one. --Plastic Editor

Concur. This article exhibits neither NPOV nor good formatting. (The formatting may actually be a more significant issue than the vandalism/POV at this point.) To be honest, it would be really great if we could just blast it and start anew. --DolphinCompSci

anti-semitism?

http://mediamatters.org/items/200412100002

'War on Christmas' picture

Somebody from Dailykos added a picture of a screenshot showing O'Reilly online store using the word 'holiday' rather than Christmas - something O'Reilly has criticized other businesses for. I removed the picture from the article, but not because I felt it was dishonest - just redundant. The person explains the situation in the 'War on Christmas' section and links to the Dailykos article that displays this screenshot. If somebody is genuinely curious about this, they can see it all by clicking the link. Repeating the picture in the actual article is a bit much, and gives this little squable too great an emphasis. -- Plastic Editor Dec. 6 2005

Cleanup tag

Why exactly is there a cleanup tag here? If it is just POV issues that are the problem, then it goes without saying that we don't need the cleanup tag...also, moving the page is a super idea. Paul 14:54, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Almost as big a problem as the tone of the article is the size and structure - it's not encyclopedic. Visitors come from Media Matters for America or Dailykos, which monitor O'Reilly for bonehead statements, and add them to the Wikipedia article. As a result, the article is too long and filled with silly squabbles - O'Reilly's public persona is all about creating controversy, so this article is likely screwed until he retires in 2007. Still, I would recommend that the cleanup tag remains, to encourage people to purge the unnecessary as well as the biased. Plastic Editor 17:54, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Recommend removing entire sections

This article is full of many items that really don't belong. I recommend removing the following sections entirely:

- Campaigns and recurring themes
- Highly publicized disputes
- Public controversies

The fact of the matter is that almost all of these things either haven't fully developed, are taken out of context, or simply don't belong in an encyclopedia. Many of these items are introduced by people who frequent websites that are either biased in favor or against Bill O'Reilly, and are more or less spurr of the moment that somebody just thought they would "add" because it furthers their oppinion of the guy. IMO these sections should be removed and not even be considered to be re-added until at least a year after Bill retires, at about which time these stories will have fully matured. -- 24.251.111.200

Removing these sections completely would be a bit harsh - I would say reducing each section to a small paragraph is more like it. For instance, 'Highly Publicized Disputes' could be boiled down to a paragraph regarding his contentious nature. There should at the very least be mention of his longstanding rivalry with Al Franken and his interview with Jeremy Glick, as he's never been able to escape those issues. But the Al Franken thing could be a sentence or two, maybe more for Glick. His trash-talking of John Kerry, Jack Murtha and Cindy Sheehan is pretty irrelevent to an encyclopedia article though, and wouldn't be missed.

I am against deleting Campaigns and Recurring themes - again, it could all be boiled down to far fewer senteces, but the section should remain to summarize these things he spends most of his time criticising.

Public Controversies, though - thats mostly ridiculous. I'd just retain mention of his public apology on Good Morning America, brush on the sex scandal, and purge everything else.

(oh, and a reminder ... sign your messages.) -- Plastic Editor December 8 2005 14:58 ET

Picture caption

Can someone explain why they are putting the "posed publicity photo" caption next to O'Reilly? Does it even matter that the picture is posed? Do we put that caption on anyone else's picture, like George Bush? No. Calwatch 22:37, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

There is a difference between a news photo or "actuality" photo taken of someone working and a posed portrait or publicity photograph. If a shot is clearly a publicity photo or an official portrait (as exists of G. W. Bush from his days as Governor of Texas on his page) then it is not inappropriate to label the shot as such. There is no negative or pejorative associated with it. It simply makes underscores the origin of the photo. One could remove the word "posed" if it truly troubles someone (though it really shouldn't) but identifying it as a "publicity photograph" is factual Davidpatrick 00:56, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Sure there is. First off, this is an encyclopedia, and we need to strive for conciseness. Secondly, placing this treatment on O'Reilly doesn't conform to standard wikipedia practice. Finally, those that want to find the status of the photo can click through and the source of the photo should be in the notes attached to the picture page. Putting that just lends to the tone that the article is anti-O'Reilly, when it should be NPOV. Calwatch 03:23, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
Affirmed. Almost every photo of an individual seen on wikipedia is posed and intended for publicity. You'd be hard pressed to find one that isn't, especially when it comes to paintings of people who lived before any kind of photograph technology even existed. Furthermore, it does not help anybody to know whether or not a photo was for publicity. The purpose of the photo is so that somebody who doesn't know anything about the guy can see his face along with his biography. Pointing out that the photo is for publicity can only serve the purpose of bias in that you leave the reader with an impression that this pleasant side of Bill can only be seen in a staged setting, which is simply not true of any person. The name, and the name only, will work just fine.

Jon Stewart and Bill O'Reilly

It seems that a little bit of a fued is developing between these two. Stewart just tore O'Reilly a new asshole on his show tonight, specifically over the fact that O'Reilly pulled out a clip of Stewart mocking Christmas a federal holiday, from a full YEAR AGO and attempting to make it look like he said it recently. Stewart was visibly agitated, he said something along the lines of "Apparently we liberal secular fags here at Comedy Central hate Christmas".

It wasn't even Jon Stewart...it was Samantha Bee who said "December 25th is the only Federal holiday that coincides with a religious holiday. That way, Christians can attend religious services and everyone else can stay at home pondering the true meaning of the separation of church and state." (Or something to that affect.) I just re-watched that segment of the Daily Show this morning, and I would say that Stewart was probably *acting* when he was visibly agitated. *shrug* DolphinCompSci 17:52, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

(Amended the War on Christmas section to point out Bee's old joke.) DolphinCompSci 07:49, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

Move request removed

Going by the number of people opposing moving the article, I am removing the move request.


Next up on the chopping block...

Anybody second my motion to delete the final paragraph/subsection, "On Brown University"? This is not a very public controversy - or a very controversial controversy, as far as O'Reilly is concerned. Worse, the writing has POV issues, with the author having outlined the "subtext" of the segment. I don't know how this one managed to stay on the page for almost a month. Plastic Editor December 11 2005 03:06 ET

I second the deletion. While I'm a big O'Reilly fan, I try to listen for whatever the liberal scuttlebutt is about him and I haven't heard anything about this being controversial. Lawyer2b 17:38, 13 December 2005 (UTC)


Bibliography

Sorry, but the following references were contained at the bottom of the page. I am inclined to delete them all, but if any one wants them, please move them over to the External Links. Steven McCrary 01:24, 28 December 2005 (UTC)


Request move (again)

OK, I, Steven McCrary call for a vote again on the idea of moving the page to Bill O'Reilly (journalist). I make this request with a great deal of circumspection realizing this was voted on once before, but I believe the title assigned to this page is not encyclopedic. I will only add this one more thing, this page should be about Bill O'Reilly (journalist) and not just Bill O'Reilly (commentator). Most of the material here is about The O'Reilly Factor, and may need to be moved. In any case, there is a great deal more to the man than just this program. Eventually, I hope, someone is going to add material here about the rest of his life, his other accomplishments, his family life, etc.

There is additional details on this debate in the above text. Especially I note the many examples that are given of other Wikipedia-described journalists engaged in work similar to Mr. O'Reilly.

Before voting, I ask that each person attempt to remove, as much as is possible anyway, their bias regarding Bill O'Reilly and The O'Reilly Factor from their minds. Given the disdain held by many, I realize this is a real challenge. Nevertheless I request that the voting be based on carefully considered views that are consistent, not biased.

Your humble servant, Steven McCrary 16:06, 28 December 2005 (UTC) updated Steven McCrary 16:40, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Voting

Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your vote with ~~~~
  • Support-As explained above, Mr. O'Reilly is a journalist by profession; The O'Reilly Factor is op-ed, debate, and interviews, all news for television; the name "commentator" is consistent with sports broadcasters, not news broadcasters. Steven McCrary 16:06, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Oppose - I think its most important to categorize O'Reilly by his best known CURRENT occupation, and for the last several years he has been a political commentator. He is famous for his political commentary and controversial opinions, not for his journalistic career years ago. I really can't understand why the word "commentator" is considered by some to be negative or biased terminology.Hal Raglan 16:34, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Oppose - As per Hal Raglan. I do, in fact, see his show as treating the news as a sport, and his job is exactly the same when talking about those issues as when a sports commentator talks about which football players are the best. One who presents the news is a journalist. One who comments on the news is a commentator. It should be noted that I don't consider op-ed writers to be "journalists" either, regardless of their party affiliation. They, too, are commentators. And O'Reilly is one of them. --Ilyag 17:24, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Oppose - See what I already said the LAST time we tried to move this. DolphinCompSci 17:42, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Oppose - O'Reilly makes no bones about the fact that he now primarily provides commentary and 'no-spin' analysis. The incidents of original reporting on his program can be counted on one hand, and came from investigations into opinion pieces he had done that stirred up controversy. True, O'Reilly was once a journalist, but thats not what made him famous and has made this article so significant. It's his role as a commentator, which is not an insult at all. --relaxathon 17:55, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

POV tag-other concerns

Sexual harassment

resolved Steven McCrary 20:27, 28 December 2005 (UTC) I believe that the "sexual harassment lawsuit" section of the article is too long, but portions of it go only to further aggrevate POV. Consider, for example, the statement "One consequence of the settlement is that O'Reilly must have a 'minder', or third party, in person when he is being interviewed in person or on the telephone." Though factual (I assume) what good is it? What do we know about the details of the settlement? This statement does not deserve to be in an encyclopedia.

  • Sexual harassment. If you truly believe that one line adds POV problems, then I have no problem with it being removed. The section itself will still contain enough information regarding this issue. Hal Raglan 17:11, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
Hal the sexual harassment section has a few such comments that need consideration. That section was edited twice, once by me, but was reverted to include deleted content. Steven McCrary 17:21, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Agreed. It should be removed. That entire section should be made more concise, rather than detailing each and every step both parties have taken. --Ilyag 17:35, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
  • I think you should really keep it. It's factual, and it's significant. I know it makes BO'R look bad, but that's not the point; it's an unusual condition that I don't believe any other journalist is subject to. You can change the word "minder" to something else if you think it sounds infantalizing. Sdedeo (tips) 21:55, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
    Are you OK with the page as is now (change made by Hal)? I am not sure about the factuality of the "minder" statement. If the details of the settlement are private, how do we know about the "minder." And even if it is true, why is it relevant? Taken out of the context of the settlement, it seems inflamatory. BTW I am not worried about O'Reilly appearing badly in Wikipedia. Steven McCrary 14:52, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
    Haven't looked at the most recent edits carefully, but if you have any doubt about the "minder" question (as I remember it was sourced? but perhaps not) then definitely try to find a source and if you can't, take it out. Sdedeo (tips) 23:25, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

Saving Christmas

resolved Steven McCrary 20:12, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Has saving Christmas been a recurring theme of O'Reilly? I think not, as I recall (and I could be wrong here), he only brought it up this year. I do not think it warrants space on the page.

  • Saving Christmas. O'Reilly is one of few proponents of the alleged "War on Christmas". His relentless discussion of the subject has unfortunately made his millions of viewers aware of what was previously a non-issue. I believe this section should remain here.Hal Raglan 17:11, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
  • It has been his most noted controversial topic of the last two months or so. It's highly notable to the article. However, I would agree to a compromise where the "Saving Christmas" topic is renamed to make reference to his coninued debates against so-called secularists instead, which the War on Christmas is a subset of. --Ilyag 17:35, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
  • No, he sparked the Christmas campaign in 2004 as well, and he's promised to do it again in 2006. The nonsense about his website store seems kind of silly, though.--72.224.182.201 18:37, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Seems fine to keep it, although "Saving Christmas" should probably be titled "the War on Christmas" (BO'R doesn't claim to be "saving" it?) Anyway, the anon IP is correct. If it becomes less important in later years, people will probably take the info out again, which is fine, articles evolve with their subjects. Sdedeo (tips) 21:56, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Doug Forrester

resolved. Steven McCrary 06:24, 30 December 2005 (UTC) What about this statement, what does it do for the article? "On the Thursday, November 3rd, 2005, edition of the O'Reilly Factor Bill O'Reilly endorsed unsuccessful Republican candidate Doug Forrester for governor of New Jersey a week ahead of the 2005 New Jersey Gubernatorial Election, suggesting that Forrester had a policy of stricter penalties for sex offenders than his rival Jon Corzine."

  • Doug Forrester: Probably this statement was inserted to help add ammunition to the argument that O'Reilly is overall supportive of the Republican agenda. But there's probably enough such info in the article already.Hal Raglan 17:11, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
  • O'Reilly's recurring theme on his show is criticising government officials of not doing enough to punish sex offenders. You are right, that paragraph should be cleaned up to reflect this crusade of his more than just give one example. --Ilyag 17:35, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Question is, how often does BO'R endorse candidates for office? My guess is rarely, I don't believe he endorsed anybody for the presidency? So I would say we need more facts and someone needs to do research: how often does BO'R endorse candidates, and is this the only time? Sdedeo (tips) 21:58, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
    I notice that User:Plastic editor reverted some previous deletion, on this topic, without discussion. Why was this deleletion reverted? Steven McCrary 23:22, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

The O'Reilly Factor.

This page is becoming increasingly about the show and not the man. It is difficult to separate the two, but shouldn't some of these issues be on The O'Reilly Factor page? Regards, Steven McCrary 14:29, 28 December 2005 (UTC) updated Steven McCrary 16:36, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

  • The O'Reilly Factor. I agree with you on this. Most of the details regarding the show itself should be shifted to The O'Reilly Factor page. Hal Raglan 17:11, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
  • You are very correct. I believe only personal information on O'Reilly, and his own personal opinions (and perhaps things like the sexual harassment lawsuit, which happen outside of the show) belong in this article. Things relating to his show's controversies, recurring themes, and other events on his show that have become newsworthy, belong on The O'Reilly Factor. They should be moved there as soon as possible, with perhaps just leaving a brief run-down of his more well-known controversies with a prominent link to the show's article. --Ilyag 17:35, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
UPDATE: I should correct my previous opinion. Many of these same recurring themes have appeared in both his op-ed columns and on his radio show. One must be careful to only remove the topics from this article which ONLY take places on his show (for example, specific debates that go on, or specific guests, etc). --Ilyag 17:49, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
  • I have to oppose moving the recurring campaigns over to the O'Reilly Factor article because they aren't exclusive to the Factor - they carry over to his books, his radio show and his newspaper column. Disputes too; after all, the one with San Fransciso began on the radio. --72.224.182.201 18:59, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

My guess is that stuff will be repeated between pages, and you'll have to do some coordination. It's fine to duplicate info. The Factor page can contain more of the Factor "scandals" and "high points", while the BO'R page can contain more general material on BO'R's personal views and their development over time.Sdedeo (tips) 22:00, 28 December 2005 (UTC)