Talk:Bill Ayers election controversy

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[edit] Retitle?

The William Ayers bio should present coverage of all of the former leader in the Weather Underground's general controversialities.

Yet, as the dual sub-article of the above mentioned biography and also with the "Barack Obama 2008 presidential election campaign" article, this sub-article ought be sure to encyclopedically reference its connection with Obama, to avoid ambiguity (that is, be as non-misleading about the who? what? where? etc. of the subject it covers. For example, see guidelines at style manual, naming conventions. Hence: Good: Bernard Kerik, Rudy Giuliani, and Rudy Giuliani promotions of Bernard Kerik; bad: an overly ambigous title e/g Bernard Kerik election controversy.)

How 'bout----

  1. "___?___"
  2. Barack Obama acquaintance with former radicals
  3. Barack Obama association with William Ayers and Bernardine Dohrn
  4. Barack Obama—William Ayers and Bernardine Dohrn election controversy
  5. Barack Obama—William Ayers and Bernardine Dohrn controversy

 — Justmeherenow (   ) 05:49, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

I have no objection to the title of the article being more explicit, but I'm not sure what the best way would be. The first two above don't work because they assert that the subject of the article is an actual acquaintance or association, which is a POV thing and not the subject of the article (the subject is the controversy). The second two don't work because B. Dohrn isn't part of the controversy as far as I know. The closest I can come to it is "2008 William Ayers - Barack Obama election controversy" but that sounds clunky. Wikidemo (talk) 06:04, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
Like it.
  • SUPPORT: 2008 William Ayers—Barack Obama election controversy. Thanks for your input, Wikidemo. — Justmeherenow (   ) 06:21, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Dohrn is indeed part of the controversy. Not as much as Ayers, since Obama wasn't involved with putting her on the Woods board, but she co-hosted Obama's coming out party and the pair are often shown together in photos illistrating the articles.[1][2] With her quote about how cool Charlie Manson was and her connections to the Brinks robberies (Google Dohrn and "Broadway Baby") and the associated murders it seems she's an even nastier bit of work than Ayers. "Actual acquaintance or association" isn't POV -- it isn't controversial that Obama knows these people and has associated with them. It's the weight to be attached to the association that is disputed, not its existance.

  • So, Barack Obama's association with William Ayers and Bernardine Dohrn looks right to me. That it's a controversy will emerge in the telling. Andyvphil (talk) 10:03, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
Oh... and just a headsup. You'll be hearing more about this before November.[3]Andyvphil (talk) 11:39, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
Adding Dohrn is more encyclopedic. ...Let's see if anybody else agrees. — Justmeherenow (   ) 10:36, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
I don't know. It may be that a name for this situation will (has?) formed from those that write about this. Dohrn does seem to be much more marginal in this than Ayers, for the reasons already given. As with the proposed renaming of the Jeremiah Wright controversy article, what's the practical advantage to the reader? Is there something separate about Dohrn's relationship with Obama that she doesn't already share with Ayers? I don't see a need to change the name, so far. It isn't very important to me either way. Noroton (talk) 12:50, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
I think I've read every single article about this controversy, in the Chicago and national media, and Bernardine Dohrn is not part of it other than being married to Bill Ayers. If you want to include her because she 'co-hosted' the political coffee (I certainly wouldn't describe it as a 'coming-out party'), you would have to include her mother as well, as I believe she was also living in the house with them at the time. I realize you want to make this as ooh! ooh! an article title as possible, but we're an encyclopedia, not a tabloid.
As far as the title itself, encyclopedia articles should be as short as possible. For example, google 'teapot dome' which was about an oil reserve scandal. None of the various sources call their articles about it anything but teapot dome or teapot dome scandal. You have to go to the article to get names and dates. We don't summarize articles in the title, except for disambiguation purposes such as 'John Doe (Idaho politician)'. Currently, we have Jeremiah Wright controversy, and Bill Ayers election controversy. The articles are linked in various ways to and from the Obama article, so I don't see any absolute necessity of adding that to the title. If we add the name, then we could argue we should add presidential election and/or campaign to the title and it gets over-long. The longest I could consider would be Barack Obama and Bill Ayers controversy (we don't use hyphens to connect names unless the hyphen is actually part of someone's legal name).
I think a possible solution would be a Wikipedia List of controversies we could link to (the earlier article we had was deleted, but a List should be acceptable).
I can understand the interest in Ayers, but quite frankly, Obama is 'on friendly terms' and has served with hundreds, if not thousands, of people. He's been on lots of boards and panels, there's everyone in the Illinois legislature, everyone in Congress, everyone at the University of Chicago (not just the law school), a lot of people in Kenwood-Hyde Park....to pick out Bill Ayers and claim he was a 'friend' (in the sense of hanging out together on a social basis) is simply misleading at best. I think we all know that, yet some insist on implying the two are BFFs, and in cahoots to overthrow the government and criminalize baseball, mom and apple pie. I don't care if you do that in your personal blogs (you can claim the earth is flat, for all I care), but that sort of thing doesn't belong in Wikipedia.
Another thing. It's important that we stay balanced with how the John McCain (and possibly Hillary Rodham Clinton, Ron Paul and Bob Barr) articles are handled. I'm very concerned about Wikipedia's reputation in general. imo there have been too many efforts to document the scandal du jour here (and not just in political articles), when we should be concentrating on giving weight to encyclopedic material. There is no scandal with Bill Ayers and Barack Obama. There is some media coverage trying to 'gin up' (the current phrase, it appears) shock and awe that they have both worked to improve conditions, particularly in education, in Chicago.
We don't have to decide on a new title today, so let's think this through and look at similar articles (and no, I don't like the Giuliani example at all). Flatterworld (talk) 14:59, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
NOW maybe SUPPORT Barack Obama and Bill Ayers controversy as I'm switzerland as to (not a hyphen, but) an en-dash----'though the house Manual of Style does specify them as appropriate as an occasionally-necessary joiner of proper nouns in titles: "Taft–Hartley Act."

En dashes in page names. When naming an article, a hyphen is not used as a substitute for an en dash that properly belongs in the title, for example in Eye–hand span. However, editors should provide a redirect page to such an article, using a hyphen in place of the en dash (e.g., Eye-hand span), to allow the name to be typed easily when searching Wikipedia.----WIKIPEDIA MANUAL OF STYLE

 — Justmeherenow (   ) 17:07, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
From a current David Broder column, "The country was captivated by the Kennedy-Nixon encounters." Then, an unrelated news headline reads "Obama-McCain battle to focus on swing states"; and this from the Pittsburg Post Gazette: "Some 83 days passed between the two most recent Bush-McCain meetings." So the house style manual's advice re connecting proper nouns via (hyphen/)endash seems to be the proper way to punctuate this type of expression. — Justmeherenow (   ) 15:47, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Delete or merge

This article should be deleted, not renamed. Some aspects of it could be merged into Bill Ayers. It's another WP:COATRACK of a WP:POVFORK. The entire controversy could be fully explained in a single paragraph with a couple of references. -- Scjessey (talk) 16:31, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

That's been discussed. It's independently notable, a distinct subject, not a fork, doesn't belong in the Bill Ayers article, and would have weight problems in the Obama election campaign article. As long as it's here the best thing is an accurate, neutral title. Wikidemo (talk) 16:48, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Delete or Merge: There doesn't seem to be enough here for a separate article. Why isn't there an "Obama" section in the Ayers article? Obama is only mentioned once in that article.Ferrylodge (talk) 17:38, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

The reason there is no Obama section in the Ayers article is that Obama is of no relevance to Ayers' life, and because there is a more logical place - here - to discuss the controversy as it relates to the 2008 election. Wikidemo (talk) 17:44, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
Well, Ayers is getting more publicity this year than he's ever gotten in his life. He may not want it or like it, but it still seems very notable, and I don't think it would be undue weight to include a section about it in his bio.Ferrylodge (talk) 18:03, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Oppose merge. This article (as a topic, not necessarily the quality of the current version) addresses a particular media event. That has an independent encyclopedic interest, which is not the same as the interest in a biography of Ayers. Any inclusion of more material from here in Ayers' article would be WP:UNDUE weight. LotLE×talk 17:50, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
Oppose merge for the reasons Wikidemo and LotLE have stated. Flatterworld (talk) 18:07, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

  • Oppose merge per Wikidemo and LotLE. This is similar to what has happened with Jeremiah Wright, though on a smaller scale. The article needs work, but the topic of of significance. This controversy has impacted not only Mr. Ayers, but Barack Obama, his presidential campaign, and the 2008 United States presidential election (though not as much as Wright, granted). Including all this material at the Ayers BLP would result in too much undue weight on this one matter. Should it be mentioned there? Of course, but this serves as a main article for the less-detailed mentions on other pages. Happyme22 (talk) 03:31, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
    • Neutral on the merge. I've begun to rethink this. The topic is notable, but there is not enough here to assert why it has impacted the race and to how great of an extent (little extent? large extent? etc.) . So I'll swtich my input over to 'neutral' for now. Happyme22 (talk) 03:35, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
That's a problem you can expect will be solved. There is a mountain of reliable, encyclopedic information on the Web alone. I'm surprised it isn't in here already. Noroton (talk) 18:12, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Oppose merge the subject is too large to be merged, even if the article at present isn't. That imbalance should be corrected. Noroton (talk) 18:14, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] How do we treat Bill Ayers on the Barack Obama page?

How much information should Obama's bio article have on his embarassing associates -- Bill Ayers, Jeremiah Wright, and Tony Rezko? The Barack Obama talk page now has an important discussion about this (at Talk:Barack Obama#Attempt to build consensus on the details).

Some editors here think that when a U.S. presidential candidate is embarassed by someone associated with that candidate, no information about it should be mentioned in the WP biography article, even if the campaign (and therefore the person who is the subject of the article) was affected. Others think WP should only mention that this person was controversial and leave a link in the article to the WP article on that controversial associate. Still others (including me), think we should briefly explain just why that person was controversial in the candidate's life, which can be done in a phrase or at most a sentence or two. Other examples:

Whatever we do, we should have equal treatment, so anyone interested in NPOV-, WP:BLP-compliant articles should look at and participate in the discussion. We've started the discussion by focusing on how much to say about former Weather Underground leader Bill Ayers in the Barack Obama article. On some other pages where I've posted this, people have been responding only beneath the post, which is fine, but won't help get a consensus where it counts. So please excuse me for raising my voice, just to make sure I get the point across: Please respond at Talk:Barack Obama#Attempt to build consensus on the details where your comments will actually affect the consensus!!! Sorry for the shoutin'. I promise not to do it again (here, at least). Noroton (talk) 18:05, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Terrorist

The FBI is the official U.S. determiner of who is and isn't a terrorist, and of which kind - yes there are several 'levels'). If you can find a reference in their website about Bill Ayers specifically, we can use that descriptor. Otherwise, no. 'Terrorist' is not a term which should be tossed about casually in an encyclopedia, and the NYT is not authoritative in that area.Flatterworld (talk) 05:06, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

It's hard to know where to begin:
  • What gave you the impression that anyone but Wikipedia is the official determiner of who is and isn't to be called a terrorist in Wikipedia?
  • What gave you the impression that the FBI had to say so?
  • What gave you the impression that any use of the word "terrorist" means it's being "tossed about casually"? It was footnoted to a New York Times story calling it a "terrorist group". That's my evidence. Where's yours?
  • Find some facts or policy. Otherwise you look like you're POV pushing. Noroton (talk) 07:25, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
There's actually a policy or guideline page on this somewhere...someone will look this up eventually...where we are advised to avoid using either "terrorist" or "freedom fighter" and simply say what they did. I won't opine on who is entitled to make the designation official. FBI list itself is of limited scope and is US-centric. But anyway, better to simply say what happened. And anyway, the article that does that best is the Weathermen article. Wikidemo (talk) 05:44, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Check Al Qaeda, first paragraph. I'm keeping a set of "terrorist" citations in my "Favorites" list on my computer. There are quite a few WP:RS calling Ayers a terrorist. Going way back in time. Setting off bombs is kind of a classic element of it. Noroton (talk) 06:00, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Al Qaeda tried to kill innocent civilians. Bill Ayers did not. Can you spot the difference? I expect I can find plenty of mainstream, major news media in other countries which label various American politicians as terrorists - are you suggesting that's sufficient to update their Wikipedia articles? That's the point behind 'one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter'. (Of course the FBI is US-centric. Bill Ayers only acted within the US, so I doubt anyone's interested in what, if anything, Iceland might have thought of him. It's encyclopedic to add to an article: 'x group was added to the FBI's y List of Terrorism Groups in March of 1998'. That's a verifiable fact. A reporter's opinion, shared or not, is not a verifiable fact.) I asked you to read the other Talk pages about Bill Ayers, and apparently you couldn't be bothered. Fine - consider this link nothing but an audit trail then, but the topic was discussed at length and I see no reason to repeat it just because you can't or won't read it for yourself: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Bill_Ayers#Terrorist Flatterworld (talk) 08:49, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for the link to that discussion. I didn't realize a lot of this content was discussed over at the Ayers article talk page. Phil Sandifer showed he has a good handle on NPOV policy and how it works. What was completely inadequate about that discussion is that editors didn't indicate they knew what a range of sources said about Ayers. I've been reading up on him over the past several days, and there is good reason to call him a terrorist and an even better reason to explain it, just as there's good reason to call him unrepentant and good reason to explain that, taking into account his own statements and the statements of others. Killing innocent civilians is close to a good definition of terrorism, but you can terrorize without killing -- setting off bombs in public buildings, even if they go off when no one is around, is easily understood to be terrorism. There is not a great deal of dissent from the view that Ayers was a terrorist -- it's a common way of describing what he was and those descriptions from reliable sources vastly outnumber the few sources that dispute the term. There ought to be a section of the Ayers article that presents the dominant view and the objections to it. The Greenwich Village townhouse explosion involved an accident with a bomb with nails in it that the terrorists were going to set off at a dance for noncommissioned officers at Fort Dix army base. That's what former Weatherman leader Mark Rudd wrote, and that's terrorism. I think this should be put within the language of the Ayers article before we do it here, so I'll work on it over there later. Where there's a widespread, dominant opinion in the sources, we're not required to refrain from saying something just because someone somewhere objects to it. Noroton (talk) 16:08, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
You are STILL missing the two cogent points. Ayers had nothing to do with Greenwich Village. The rest of the WU members renounced killing people after the bomb blew up. The GV information belongs in the Weatherman (organization) article, but it's obviously misleading to use it in an article about Ayers to imply he EVER wanted to kill people. A Catholic can be in the parish of a convicted priest, but that doesn't make the parishioner responsible for the priest's actions. The problem with using the word 'terrorist', obviously, is that the current connotation is ONLY with people trying to kill non-combatants. You can make the denotation argument as loud and as long as you like, but the connotation remains. That's why the main Bill Ayers article is there to address his WU 'career', and the main Weatherman article is there to address the organization. We have hyperlinks. There is no reason to repeat bits and pieces in this article simply to lead our readers down the garden path. If you read Clinton's comments at the debate, it's obvious that's EXACTLY the image she was trying to project. So are you. As far as 'outnumbering sources' - well they would, wouldn't they? They're all based on what was said in that NYT 'interview'. It appears you're not checking any original sources, but simply what the media is repeating. Reminds me of Curveball - everything goes back to one source which wasn't accurate in the first point because of a private agenda. Flatterworld (talk) 16:35, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
If you like Ben Smith so much, he calls Ayers "a former violent radical', NOT a terrorist. From the source you added to the article: http://dyn.politico.com/printstory.cfm?uuid=3FC289D8-3048-5C12-009AD5180C22FF0B As I said - you're cherry-picking things from articles just to reinforce the points you already decided to make. Just like the NYT. Judith Miller is NOT the role model to be followed. And of course, Ben Smith couldn't refrain from quoting the NYT itnerview: "“I don't regret setting bombs; I feel we didn't do enough,” Ayers told the New York Times in 2001." Ayers wrote a letter to the editor immediately after that appeared, as he said the journalist conflated two separate sentences, thus mischaracterizing what he said and believed. But nobody wants to hear that, do they? Not when they can choose ooh! ooh! trash instead. Fine. People are idiots. They believe the National Enquirer, so what's new? But I'm not interested in encouraging them, certainly not through the use of an encyclopedia that requires a trust factor. If something is not true, we do no one any favors by adding to the repetition. Flatterworld (talk) 16:47, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Gotta go and haven't read your whole comment yet, but you miss something when you say A Catholic can be in the parish of a convicted priest, but that doesn't make the parishioner responsible for the priest's actions. (1) Ayers was on the five-member governing board of the entire Weatherman organization ("Weatherbureau"), and he says in his 2001 memoir (again and again, according to the NYT review) that he can't say everything he knows because he wants to protect people). The analogy is to the Bishop, not the guy in the pew; (2) Ayers girlfriend was one of the Weather people in that house. It's not a simple matter, but there's no exoneration here. And nothing Ayers says, when you look at it, is simple and clear. So don't strain so much to exonerate him when he's being weasily. The evidence for him being weasily is in his own writings and in what plenty of reliable sources say about him. If you've really done the reading, including the bottom of that Sept. 11 piece in the Times, you know you've got to be careful with his statements. And again you're completely failing to follow WP:AGF when I'm trying to add information in a non-POV way. Don't you realize that making charge after charge of POV pushing while doing nothing but try to make him look good doesn't actually help your own credibility? And it's just plain uncivil. Go hit a punching bag. Treat people with respect. I spent some time writing on your talk page trying to suggest ways of dealing with editing disagreements. Even MastCell tried to reason with you. If you won't try to get along, step away from the keyboard. Noroton (talk) 21:21, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Clearly you've become so caught up in this you can't even recognize that you are the one who needs to step away from the keyboard. All you've been doing is coming up with various excuses as to why the sources I provide shouldn't be used, and your media echo chamber of the original NYT interview is the gospel truth. I'm not arguing for exoneration, I'm arguing to present all sides. You're arguing for a guilty verdict based on what you've read in the NYT and 'Musings & Migraines'. And then you blame me. Wrong answer. Flatterworld (talk) 04:42, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] POV edit to lead paragraph

Wikidemo changed the language in the lead paragraph to "a characterization by opponents of presidential candidate Barack Obama". I have these questions about that edit:

    1. Please provide proof that the name of this article is a "characterization by opponents".
    2. And is it the name of the article you're saying is a characterization or something else? Please clarify. We don't normally say "is a characterization by opponents of" in the lead of an article since the actual topics that articles cover is generally a neutral subject. If you don't have proof, I'm going to have to conclude that edit is POV. Noroton (talk) 06:07, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
  • No. 1 - citations already in article. None of the underlying facts were ever hidden. There was a Bloomberg article which as far as I can tell was the first mention in the current election cycle. It got picked up by a lot of blogs and partisan news sources, overwhelmingly conservative ones, as a way of attacking Obama, and then some Clinton supporters seized on it as a matter that would supposedly invite conservative opposition. Covering the underlying events as an association, connection, etc., would be hard. There is no affiliation between the two, and if there were that is not the subject of the article. This article is about the political controversy, not an attempt to show that the two men are connected.
  • No. 2 - the name of the article has been questioned, and there have been proposals to rename. The scope of this article is supposed to be (at least when created) the controversy arising in the 2008 presidential election about the purported / alleged connection between the two men. I don't think anyone has ever shown that the two men are in fact related, associated, friends, etc., only that they have had certain contacts. The rest is partisan politics. Wikidemo (talk) 06:25, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
You're not being clear -- It's late where I am and perhaps where you are, so maybe that explains it. It is unclear from the sentence just what is "a characterization by opponents". Is it a "characterization by opponents" to call it a "controversy"? Is that what you mean? Or is it a "characterization by opponents" to call it "Bill Ayers election controversy". I just don't get it. It seems to me that the standard way to treat this is the way the news accounts treat it and to call it what the news accounts call it. If there's no standard way of treating it, we don't just say "characterization by opponents", we describe the differences, taking into account what opponents, proponents and neutral parties are saying. But first you've got to be clear.
Also, you're treating "connection" and "association/associate" as if they were controversial words. That's not controversial at all. It isn't debated and there's barely a difference of description about that no matter where you go. There is widespread acceptance at this point (that is, barring any new information), that they met and knew each other. The point that's controversial is whether or not Obama should have separated himself from Ayers even on the level that everyone accepts was the case. Click on any of the links in the references and you'll find what I'm saying is the case. If you've got evidence otherwise, give me a link. I'm getting the impression you're not familiar with the sources. Please read them if you haven't. Noroton (talk) 06:46, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Here's an example:
[...] their connection to the Democratic presidential candidate -- they hosted a gathering for him in 1995 when he first ran for the state Senate and later contributed $200 to his reelection campaign -- has been [...]" -- Washington Post article, fourth paragraph
"Connection" and "association" are not a big deal. Either word refers to the accepted fact that they were on a foundation board together, but it could also mean a lot of other things, including that Ayers helped out Obama with that meeting at Ayers' house -- which you strangely removed from the article. See Merriam-Webster. No POV is implied. Noroton (talk) 06:59, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Coatrack? How?

Wikidemo removed the following from the article after I had just added it. I added it back unwittingly when I just copied and pasted a whole paragraph due to an edit conflict. Here's the passage:

"When I first met Barack Obama, he was giving a standard, innocuous little talk in the living room of those two legends-in-their-own-minds, Bill Ayers and Bernardine Dohrn," Chicago blogger Maria Warren wrote in a 2005 blog post. "They were launching him — introducing him to the Hyde Park community as the best thing since sliced bread." Warren later wrote that she was concerned Republicans would use her comment for "left-baiting" to hurt Obama."

Wikidemo's edit summary mystified me: (rm irrelevant coatrack material) I have no idea how WP:COATRACK is supposed to apply to a description of what the meeting was like and what it was about. The passage is the clearest information I've come across in all the articles I've read about this as to what that meeting was all about. It gives details others don't have, especially Ayers enthusiasm for Obama at that point, something I hadn't seen elsewhere. I found it in Ben Smith's Politico piece. We should have an adequate description of that meeting, with details, since it is one of the fundamental elements of the connection between the two men. Noroton (talk) 06:30, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

An unreliable source is denigrating two people (BLP) as legends in their own minds. The quote (though a nice, evocative opinion piece) is utterly unnecessary and unrelated to the subject of the article, namely that there is a controvery over Obama's alleged association with Ayers. We can certainly summarize, no? I'm not sure we should cite a blogger for anything, but if it passes RS and WEIGHT we can say that a blogger recounts Ayers and his wife Dohrn, as introducing Obama to local society. Whether you call it coatrack (using a reliable source's mention of something to heap on criticism of Obama and Ayers) or something else, the stuff about being legends in their own mind and the greatest thing since sliced bread is just cattiness and has no place in a Wikipedia article. Wikidemo (talk) 07:29, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Oh, I see what you mean with the "legends in their own minds" phrase, and I've got no problem with removing it. I think you're right about the cattiness, and I should have thought about that. But she's the source Bill Smith uses in his article at Politico.com and Ben Smith & Politico.com are a reliable source (both separately and together). Your concern for WP:WEIGHT is perplexing: The meeting itself is one of the most prominent parts of the facts that underly the controversy. You can't have a controversy article that's any good without giving as full a description of the underlying facts as is possible in the space we have. The woman quoted is one of the few people who gave out any information about the meeting. It is only natural that her description be included in the article. You talk about summarizing in an article that is two steps removed from a stub. You summarize because the article shouldn't get too long -- it's not a concern until then. Aren't we trying to provide the best, most complete account possible of the controversy?
Does removing the "legends in their own minds" phrase settle all the WP:COATRACK concerns? Noroton (talk) 15:44, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
No. Ben Smith writes a blog which is the equivalent of a political gossip column. That's fine, he doesn't represent it as anything else, but it's not a reliable, encyclopedic source. Flatterworld (talk) 16:37, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Since you couldn't be bothered yourself, here's the original source material as opposed to Ben Smith's portrayal of it, from the 'Maria Warren blog, aptly titles "Musings & Micgraines" http://warrenpeacemuse.blogspot.com/2005_01_23_archive.html I trust you can tell, by the casual language she uses throughout her blog, that just perhaps she isn't an authoritative resource we should rely on, 'eye-witness' or not. btw - journalists use something called 'corroboration'. Ben Smith was only interested in corroborating that those people were there (which he did, and no one disagrees), NOT who said what, who called the meeting, who knew whom when, or any of the rest. Flatterworld (talk) 17:48, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
No. Ben Smith writes a blog which is the equivalent of a political gossip column'. Review WP:RS. Ben Smith, 30, a reporter for The Daily News in New York, who will be writing a blog for The Politico about the 2008 presidential campaign. [4] Why not learn a bit more about policy and the facts of the situation before -- or instead of -- going on the attack? Go see what Norm Sheiber of The New Republic had to say about Smith (link is in the footnotes). Why do I have to do your research for you? Noroton (talk) 18:34, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
I read Ben Smith's blog every day. I enjoy it. It's entertaining. But he's not the authoritative expert on everything, especially not in Chicago (which is why he relied on the stringer listed at the end of the article), and he does have his biases. Journalism is the first draft of history, which means you can't expect it to be 100% correct. Just because he got a few things confused doesn't mean he did that on purpose, but it also doesn't mean we have to believe everything he ever wrote is the gospel truth. He wouldn't claim that, so why should you? (Do I care what Norm Sheiber says? No. He's not on my personal whitelist of trusted sources.) If all you're going to do is quote journalists quoting other journalists, then no wonder you're going off on the wrong track. (And of course I noticed you had nothing to say about the...shall we say 'quality level'...of the Maria Warren blog.) Flatterworld (talk) 20:22, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

(redent)Forgive me for not following your link to the blog, but I haven't been following everything you say since you attacked me. You made a point about WP:RS and my response was to that, not to whether someone is totally accurate. What I have been doing is looking at various articles on newsbank.com to see how this story was reported and commented on. I see The Observer of London noted Smith's story was apparently one of the first, if not the first, significant, in-depth articles on the topic. Noroton (talk) 20:42, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

So to summarize...you're researching nothing but the media coverage, while I'm researching on the actual facts. Obviously we're not likely to come to the same conclusions. And blaming my 'attitude' for your own ignorance of the facts isn't going to change that. But do feel free to continue your rant that everything is my fault, if it makes you feel better. Flatterworld (talk) 04:49, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

The Politico is, also, a newspaper----whose print version (see ...here...) I believe is distributed particularly in the D.C. area. — Justmeherenow (   ) 18:34, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Unrelated complaint about description of meeting at Ayers house

The way you've (Noroton) rewritten the article, it appears you think there were two separate meetings at the Ayers house. There was one. Again, you'd have to read the Bill Ayers Talk page, but what's clear is that various sources imply various things. The meeting was at the Ayers house, but it was Alice Palmer's meeting. As you've stated, one source claims that's where Ayers first met Obama. Others have implied they were already some sort of BFF and Ayers was 'launching' Obama's political career (quite unlikely, for various reasons). Now you've got a blogger claiming she remembers exactly what was said 10 years before she wrote it down. I think we're going off the rails here.... Flatterworld (talk) 08:59, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
I've put this tangential criticism in its own section because it appears to have nothing to do with the previous one. Your concerns:
  • The way you've (Noroton) rewritten the article, it appears you think there were two separate meetings at the Ayers house. There was one. Again, you'd have to read the Bill Ayers Talk page, but what's clear is that various sources imply various things. The meeting was at the Ayers house, but it was Alice Palmer's meeting. As you've stated, one source claims that's where Ayers first met Obama. Others have implied they were already some sort of BFF and Ayers was 'launching' Obama's political career (quite unlikely, for various reasons). I haven't yet seen a source that says Ayers met Obama before the meeting at his house. Could you provide me with the ones you know of? If they conflict with the witness who remembers Ayers trying to sell Obama, then so be it. It isn't a contradiction for Palmers to have a meeting at Ayers house and for Ayers to try to sell Obama at that same meeting. If there is a definite conflict and we can't sort out which is right or wrong, Wikipedia policy is to present the differences in what the sources say, not to present nothing or only one side. One way of doing this without violating WP:OR might be to say something like "According to XX source(s) this was the first time Obama met Ayers, yet according to YY source, Ayers was promoting Obama at the get-together..." I'm open to suggestions, but not if they keep the article in a near-stub state, the way I found it.
  • What is "BFF"?
  • Now you've got a blogger claiming she remembers exactly what was said 10 years before she wrote it down. What do you mean by remembers exactly what was said? The way I read it, she described the meeting in general terms. Don't you have memories older than 10 years? The fact is that Obama and Ayers have refused to talk about the meeting. Same with Palmer. So we go with the best sources we have, and she was an eyewitness. It's simple and straightforward.
  • I think we're going off the rails here.... Not a constructive comment. Noroton (talk) 15:44, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
BFF - Best Friends Forever
You're the one who added this: "Obama was introduced to Ayers and Ayer's wife, Bernardine Dohrn in 1995 at a "meet-and-greet" political meeting the couple held for Obama at their home in the Hyde Park section of Chicago, where all three lived.[7]" The exact words of the source (your NYT article you like so much because it includes 'unrepentant terrorist' which they cribbed from the earlier NYT interview in a rather incestuous fashion): "Mr. Obama was introduced to the couple in 1995 at a meet-and-greet they held for him at their home, aides said." Beyond that, your wording makes it appear all three lived in the house - which is EXACTLY how rumors get started.) This really isn't difficult. Alice Palmer had decided to run for higher office. She wanted her supporters to meet Obama. The Ayers agreed to hold this meeting at their house, as they were supporters of Alice Palmer. They, along with the rest, met Obama. The only thing in conflict involves your misinterpretation and extrapolation of the facts.
No, I do not trust my memories (enough to commit them to print) from any wine-and-cheese party I attended 10 years ago. Remember Obama waas being introduced? Sure. Remember exactly who said what? No. I also don't know any responsible journalist (as opposed to a casual blogger) who would state something categorically from 10 years ago if he/she didn't have his/her contemporaneous notes from the time. That's why they take notes. Why on earth would you trust this blogger any more than a stranger on the street telling you something salacious? And then add it to an encyclopedia entry? No way.
"Near-stub state"? No, it was concise. It covered all the points raised in the media - there just isn't that much there. Unfortunately, Wikidemo removed the rebuttals to Clinton's remarks which were footnoted in the main Bill Ayers article (last time I looked, anyway). You also ignored them, so imo they haven't made any progress here.
Your POV is obvious. Research is about finding all the information about a person or subject, putting it together, analyzing it, and then writing the results, whatever they may be. It is NOT deciding what you want to say, and then finding supporting sources. Cart, horse, before. Flatterworld (talk) 16:20, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
You've got a real attitude problem about knocking other editors who don't agree with you 100 percent, don't you? You like attacking people? You're being disruptive. I don't care how old you are, act like an adult. I'm not even going to read the substance of your reply now because I'm sick of your childishness. If you can't abide by WP:CIVIL and WP:NPA don't interact with other editors. I'm trying to do a serious job here, it is demonstrable that I haven't pushed only one side of this, and I've listened to you and Wikidemo and been flexible. I've made a number of improvements. What good have you done? I'll address the substance of what you say, if there is any, later.Noroton (talk) 18:22, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
I don't remember exactly what I've removed on each occasion and I've slowed down on removing stuff. I've tried to trim things back a few times, for a couple reasons. First, I was hoping to succinctly describe the controversy, the positions of various parties, how it arose, and a few underlying facts. By repeating too many snipes and zingers on both sides, it seemed like the article was turning into a proxy for the controversy itself. Second, the people kept expanding the transcript of the debate to the point where we were repeating quite a large chunk of primary material here. A link to the debate would be more appropriate. Wikidemo (talk) 17:42, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Hey, it's an article about a controveersy, and a controversy will involve some back and forth. From the sources I've already seen, I can add a bit on how it arose. They say two British newspapers picked up on it first in early February, the Ben Smith article in Politico.com was the first or almost the first to treat the issue in depth, and before February it had been mentioned but, apparently, not treated in depth by the media. As I put in the article, Fox news has been running with the story for some time. Ayers has been controversial, even with regard to associations, in ways unconnected to Obama but especially after 9/11. I haven't read a lot of the commentary yet (sticking to news accounts mostly, so far), but I've added a bit in the reaction section. I expect to add more and balance that out. That's got to be a large part of an article about a controversy.Noroton (talk) 18:22, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Sure, I don't disagree. But on the other point, two paragraphs or so of Obama and Clinton "debating" each other (I use quotes because throwing faint coded jabs at each other is hardly like anything I ever thought of as a debate) was a bit much. If a reader really wants to see or read that they can follow the link. Wikidemo (talk) 19:20, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
And if they follow the link, and we have offered nothing to rebut her statements, they may well assume that Clinton was being honest and accurate when she implied that Bill Ayers's comments were made after, or in response to, the September 11, 2001 attacks; that people other than the Weatherman's own members (see Greenwich Village townhouse explosion) died from their bombs, or there was any intention by Ayers to ever kill people; and that Ayers was referring specifically to setting more bombs (again with the implication 'to kill innocent people') rather than his wish they had done more in some way to stop the Vietnam War. That's the problem: to refute invalid statements, we have to repeat them. If we ignore the statements, and especially if we casually use the word 'terrorist', we're sending an inaccurate message (and I would say the same if I were working on Robert McNamara's article with his 'confessions of lying' book). We don't want 'technically true' statements, we want to convey the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. Flatterworld (talk) 20:12, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

(redent)Nails were within the bomb that blew up in the Greenwich Village townhouse explosion that killed Ayers' then-girlfriend. Mark Rudd and others have said the bomb was planned to be used at a dance at Fort Dix that night. That's classic terrorism. More important than that we call it terrorism, we can report that many, many others call it terrorism, describe the other opinions about that and his response to that, and simply describe what he did as a leader of the Weatherman. A lot of that needs to be done in the Bill Ayers article, which has extremely little information on the thing about him that is most controversial and prominent -- his activities in Weatherman. Noroton (talk) 20:55, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Also, on the debate coverage. There is a huge block of text on that, from what I saw. While we have quotes in the article and we need them, I think the link is the best way to present the whole thing. There needs to be some kind of balance with being able to tell people how the matter came up and what was said and the problem of having too big a chunk of text in the article, leading to editors adding a little bit more here and there (maybe now that Clinton is leaving the race that won't be a problem). There certainly is no need to go into every single detail that gets us farther and farther from the subject.Noroton (talk) 20:59, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
You're mischaracterizing what I said. Flatterworld (talk) 04:51, 7 June 2008 (UTC)