Talk:Biggles

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This is a good article. It possibly needs sourcing but references at the bottom are fine. Capitalistroadster 06:56, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Cleaned up the first Python reference

Whoever wrote the previous edit had obviously never bothered to actually read the sketch in question, since Biggles is clearly being portrayed by Chapman as a comic homophobe. I'm pretty sure threatening other professing gays means that at the very least you are still "in the closet". Obiwanjacoby 00:53, 27 August 2007

[edit] Racism

I have a moth eared copy of Biggles in Africa (I think thats the title) where he refers to one of the natives as a 'N****R' so I dont think we can be so sure of the lack of Racism in Johns work. Saying that Im sure the text was no more racist than the average white anglo saxon at that point in time. Thats still no excuse mind. Adam777 23:30, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

(myles325 butts in. You've coined a beauty here. "Moth eared" is a cross between moth-eaten and thumb-eared, with a hint of cloth eared. Congrats. Ok carry on...) Myles325a (talk) 01:50, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
(myles325 butts in yet again). Oh good grief (as Charlie Brown would say) - now I’ve gone and done it as well. “Moth eared” is a cross between moth-eaten and dog-eared (not thumb-eared as I wrote earlier). Thumb-eared is possible, but is nowhere near as good as dog-eared, with well-thumbed being the preferred term. Myles325a (talk) 22:29, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree, but to play the devil's advocate . . can it really be described as racism when (perjorative or not) this word was the normal one used by white people to refer to black people? To my way of thinking, intent is key here. If the intent is to stigmatise, then it's racism. If the intent is other, then the person may be being insensitive, but isn't necessarily being racist. Johno 13:57, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

I love Biggles books with a passion, but I don't think it's fair to say that the charges of racism are refuted by evidence. For one thing, racism is in the eye of the beholder. An encyclopedia entry can say that such charges were laid, which is fact. Saying that the presence of positive non-WASP characters proves that there isn't any racism is a matter of evaluation. For another thing, Biggles books have a number of blanket statements about various non-white statements which are (to my mind) racist. Biggles peppers a bush with a shotgun at one stage, explaining that the Chinese don't value human life very highly, even their own. In 'Biggles in the Orient', he tells the reader that the Japanese never invent anything and that they stole their language from the Chinese. There is also an African 'native' who recuperates very quickly from a wound, you know, as Africans do. Saying that the attitudes were 'of their time' and hence not racist, is a cop-out, especially since Biggles' 'time' is our time - from the 30s to the 70s. It's true that Biggles came to be used a symbol of Blimpishness and British Imperialism, a lot of which can't be laid at Johns' door, but the entry should be fair, so I have amended the page, leaving in the mention of positive non-white characters, but taking out the line that this 'refutes' the charges of racism. Otherwise it's a brilliant page and I'm glad I've found it.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by [[User:{{{1}}}|{{{1}}}]] ([[User talk:{{{1}}}|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/{{{1}}}|contribs]]).

'Biggles in Australia' is is particularly painful in this regard. Even without von Stalhein's intervention, Australian Aboriginals are portrayed as inherently savage people quite capable of spearing white men to death after years of friendship... and near the end, when the Aboriginals have turned on von Stalhein's crew, Biggles' response is that it's still Our Heroes' duty to save von Stalhein & co. because they're white men. Trying to reach a conclusion on whether the series as a whole is racist falls into the realms of original research; if we want to address that it should be done by finding & referring to published commentary, not our own opinions. --Calair 03:40, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

As an (Australian) boy, I remember reading “Biggles in Australia” and being shocked by Biggles’ (and Johns’) attitude to the Australian Aborigines. Johns knew nothing about Aborigines when he wrote it, but this did not stop him from maligning them by attributing to them behaviour completely uncharacteristic of them, and in a fashion that was totally out of keeping with the “fair play” ethos he purports to support elsewhere. In the other books, Biggles is loathe to kill anyone, and tries to keep any such killing to the bare minimum. Here, with his plane on the ground, he maneuvers it around to point at a mob of angry “savages” and lets them have it with both machine guns. And there is no hint of the compassion and remorse he often evinces when he must kill elsewhere. I’m surprised the book was ever released in Australia at all, and now, even if his other stories may to be tolerated as expressions of attitudes typical of the times, this one at least should not be given to children, anywhere. Myles325a (talk) 01:39, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
All Biggles-books have been removed from the shelves of swedish public libraries on account of being racist.Oskila (talk) 12:23, 9 December 2007 (UTC)


Deleted the statement that racism in Biggle's books is merely alleged, and the contentious statement that 'all of the accusations of right-wing racial bias are groundless', which I suspect has been removed before and reinstated.

My justification is clear evidence of right-wing racism in 'Biggles in Africa':

'As Ginger had observed, if appearances were anything to go by the man looked capable of any vice or crime. In the first place he was clearly a half-breed, with the black predominant, although his hair was long and straight.' Biggles in Africa, p35, Oxford hb edition.

There are other clear examples, in this and other 'Biggles' books. The issue here is not the terms used (although half-breed was an insult even at that time), but the attitude to a character who they had not yet had any dealings with.

Defenders of the 'proud Biggles tradition', please remember that Biggles is a fictional character, and this is a reference site. Spurious defence of his portrayal is not an ad hominem attack on every Englishman of the time! (Although it does reflect very poorly on W.E. Johns, as Biggles is supposed to be a very English hero). Also, evidence of positive non-white characters has no bearing on accusations of racism, especially where the racism clearly makes negative comment on the creed or colour of the victim of the racism.

Finally, 'typical of the time in which they were written' may be a defence for not censoring Biggles books, or even for allowing them to stay on library shelves but it is also no defence against charges of racism.

Removed this statement: and Johns' accusers (few of whom had even read the books) had to resort to extreme manipulation of the texts in order to condemn them (No citation nor example for a contentious statement)

Added this statement: It is very unlikely that the imperialist and racist content of Biggles books would be seen as acceptable as childrens' uncritical reading by schools, libraries and other public bodies in the UK today. (Archaic attitudes in Biggles books makes this statement rather necessary)

Retained concept: 'he asserts to Air Commodore Raymond, in Biggles Delivers the Goods, that he has "always tried to be decent to all men, regardless of race, nationality, colour or creed".' A proper reference is necessary here, as it goes against some of the racist prejudices displayed in other Biggles books. Is anyone able to do this?

Removed statement: 'and a message in the books, often delivered with heavy-handed emphasis, is that readers should endeavour to do likewise.' (no examples given for such a contentious statement - it seems to be there merely to combine with the 'race, nationality, colour or creed' statement (previous para) to offer a weak defence against the usual and evidently painful, racism charge.

I hope here that I have cut short the circular arguments about whether it is original research to decide whether Biggles books are racist, attitudes of the time (quite a long time, apparently!) and so on. Examples show that the books are clearly racist, and would have been so even when written. The only thing that has really changed is the acceptability of such racism. Centrepull (talk) 15:59, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Film

its worth mentioing that a modern day film staring the biggles character was made-i belive peter cushing was in it. It involved some silly time travel plot as i recall —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.129.171.188 (talk • contribs)

That's Biggles: Adventures in Time, and it's already mentioned, about halfway through the "Biggles in popular culture" section. --Paul A 02:26, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] origin of name "Biggles"

The Shuttleworth Collection located near Biggleswade, Bedfordshire, was founded in 1928, WE Johns would have moved in same the circle of aviation society as Shuttleworth, his first stories came out in 1932... I have been ponderingb this since 1978! Nankai 03:40, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Who was Biggles modelled after?

A great article, but from my reading of the biggles books, his career seems to mirror the actions of one Albert Ball! Cyril Lowe may have been a good pilot but it was ball who challenged a german to a duel, it was also Ball who pretended to be hit and landed behind enemy lines when outnumbered only to take off again when his pursuers had broken combat. There are also a number of other stories from other pilots... as a matter of fact I don't think that one of the exploits of cyril has been reproduced yet dozens from other pilots have been...

As proof I quote from They fought for the sky by Quenton reynolds (1956 I think...) "One Afternoon Ball encountered two Albatrosses over the lines. He opened the attack, gave each machine minor wounds, and both headed for the safety of their home base. Ball followed and then ran out of ammunition. He took out his revolver and pursued them, but they managed to land safely. Ball, enraged and disgusted that any fighting airman would act in what he felt to be a craven manner, wrote a note on the pad all pilots carried strapped to the right thigh, weighted it and dropped it over the airfield. He said he would be over the base the next day at the same time, and he challenged his two late opponents to come up and resolve the battle.

Ball arrived promptly the next day and to his delight he found the two aircraft circling slowly. He flew straight towards the nearest one, intending to rely on the near-collision manoeuvre which had stood him in such good stead, but before he could close in he heard machine gun bullets whistling all around him and he knew that he had flown into a trap. He zoomed upwards and to the left, and now he saw that there were three uninvited guests at the joust. It was five against one now. He tried hard to get close enough to pick off one or two, but the Germans were wiley fliers; they swerved away, merely waiting for the chance to close in and finish him off. Ball chased them furiously, firing at longer range than he liked, but he always had to break off his run as one or two of the others manaeuvred above and behind him. Then he ran out of ammunition. Theoretically, he should not have remained alive for more than a minute. If he lit out on his ownterritory, he would be as vulnerable as a sitting duck for always three of the five stayed between him and allied territory. Then he improvised perhaps the most unorthodox and apparently suicidal manoeuvre ever attempted by a cornered airman. He put his plane in a crazy spin. The Germans, of course, were sure that he had been hit. Ball had observed a large open field below; he brought his neuport out of the spin and fluttered towards the ground. He landed. The Germans knew this was Albert Ball; Taking him prisoner would be an even greater triumph than killing him. Two of the german aircraft swooped down to land on the field; the other three flew over it, wagging their wings in derisive triumph, and then went to a nearby airfield to spread the story. Ball was slumped over the seat of his little neuport but his engine was still idling. The German pilots hopped out of their respective machinesand ran towards the neuport and its presumably wounded pilot. As they aproached Ball opened his throttle, pulled back his control stick and the little airoplane shot down the field, rose in the air and Ball headed for home without having recieved a scratch."

Maybe you should revise just a little. 220.101.103.200 04:12, 26 March 2007 (UTC)p-hughes

You make a good point, p-hughes. But can you trust someone with such a strange last name? :)Johno 13:51, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Are you kidding Johno... the guy in the book is called BIGGLESWORTH!

220.101.103.200 08:12, 27 March 2007 (UTC)phughes

Thought I should just add that the "head on" tactic of Albert Ball is also described here. Another proof that Ball is more of the model used for the character.220.101.103.200 05:14, 28 March 2007 (UTC)P-hughes

All the above aside, where's the reference for the Cyril Lowe connection anyway? Rojomoke 11:37, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Isn't the point that, when writing the early Biggles stories, Johns used lots of anecdotes and stories that he had heard of unusual events and inventive tactics? It's a little disingenuous therefore to claim that Biggles is "based on" any one pilot on the grounds that Johns used a real incident involving him in writing the story. According to the author's note of "The Camels Are Coming", he wrote Biggles at least in part to record for posterity some of the tips and tactics that proved useful, to potentially be useful in the next war. 82.163.43.10 (talk) 12:56, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Who are these dorks...

...who are vandalising this page, and what do they have against Biggles? --Newshound 17:08, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Biggles Forum

Biggles Forum: I have read the terms of external links and I see that it is recommended to avoid links to a forum, however I feel that the biggles forum is a resource of benefit to Biggles on the internet and further reference as we have a huge amount of Capt W.E.Johns related information. Hopefully a link to the Biggles Forum is ok on this page even if it is not recommended on (and was removed from) the main page. Justintuijl 08:17, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Beiggelschwarz: Flemish/Dutch origin

Pearson's book is generally poorly regarded by Biggles fans, appearing, as it does, to be more based on speculation than research. Johns never referenced a Dutch ancestor in Aberdeen and I think it likely this has no basis. Rschroev's comment below further calls this into question. Does anyone have a good reason why the Beiggelschwarz sentence should remain in the article? --Ewanscot (talk) 05:33, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

According to the article, the name Bigglesworth originates from the Flemish surname Beiggelschwarz, the surname of a Dutch ancestor (according to John Pearson's work "Biggles - the Authorised Biography").

However, I am Flemish and I'm pretty sure that Beiggelschwarz is not a Flemish or Dutch surname. It sounds rather German: 'schwarz' is German for 'black' (and would be 'zwart' in Dutch) and 'Beiggel' sounds German to me too.

Rschroev (talk) 13:16, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

I've removed the Flemish derivation, which doesn't seem appropriate. Cooke (talk) 12:36, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Biggles in later popular culture - Planetary

Biggles appeared in Doc Brass' pantheon of heroes in the first issue of the "Planetary" comic book series, by Warren Ellis and John Cassady and published by DC Comics under the Wildstorm imprint. Brass and his comrades were slightly altered versions of pulp heroes, including Doc Savage, the Shadow, Tarzan, Fu Manchu and Operator No. 5. Biggles appeared as an unnamed aviator hero.

It's not actually intended to be Biggles, though - the only British character in the group is Blackstock/Tarzan. The Absolute Planetary collection helpfully reprints the script as well as the issue itself, clearly identifying the character as "G-8 -- The Pilot" when he's first mentioned.

Accordingly, I'd suggest that the Planetary references are mistaken and should be deleted from this article. --81.151.218.14 (talk) 11:01, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Lemonade

(When the early World War I-based Biggles books were reprinted for children, book publishers also edited a case of "whisky" to a case of "lemonade" bottles, resulting in absurd episodes of squadrons risking their lives for a prize of fizzy pop[1])

In all fairness, I'd say risking one's life for a case of whiskey is equally foolish. ;) --144.137.115.76 (talk) 13:22, 27 April 2008 (UTC)