Talk:Big Finish Doctor Who chronology

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Articles for deletion This article was nominated for deletion on 30 August 2007. The result of the discussion was redirect to Doctor Who story chronology.


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[edit] Concerns about this page

(This is adapted from a note I wrote at User talk:Coreman.)

Over at the Doctor Who WikiProject we've only just noticed this rather impressive Doctor Who Chronology. As a fellow Doctor Who fan I recognize the appeal and value of a page like this, putting all the Doctor's adventures from sundry media into order. Unfortunately, there may be problems with having this page in its current form on Wikipedia. Specifically, it may be in violation of Wikipedia's no original research policy, which excludes "any new analysis or synthesis of published data, statements, concepts, arguments, or ideas", or any content which "introduces a synthesis of established facts in a way that builds a particular case... without attributing the synthesis to a reputable source." Even though Big Finish helpfully provides "production codes" which show how they hope to fit each audio in, the consolidation of all those production codes and "this audio follows..." notes into a single document constitutes original research, I fear. So does the presentation of Big Finish's "seasons".

There's also a concern about the list and the neutral point of view policy. In the case of Doctor Who's chronology, there is no official BBC policy about how to fit the television series, audios and novels together, and (as you probably know) fans differ on exactly what is canonical. If we present a chronology with the TV series and audios, some fans will ask how we justify keeping out the novels, or the Doctor Who Magazine comic. Others will say, "only the TV series counts" and object to implicitly giving Big Finish the same status as the TV series. Finally, there are some questions about exactly where some stories fit — the BBC novels don't explictly state which TV stories they fit between, and then there's the thorny question of how to rectify the various lives of the Eighth Doctor. (You're probably familiar with the arguments here.)

There are several websites which have attempted, or are attempting, to create what Russell T. Davies has called "the Complete History of the Doctor". These include the Doctor Who Reference Guide, the Canon-Keeper's Guide at Outpost Gallifrey, and The Doctor's Biography (still in development) at the Whoniverse. If you look closely at these, you'll notice that they don't tally up exactly — that's because the authors have had to make judgment calls about places where the continuity is unclear, and their judgments don't always agree. Since Wikipedia has to be neutral, we can't take sides in disputes like that. However, we could have an article which points readers towards these different efforts, without taking sides between them.

If we can't save the page in its current form, you might be able to move it to TARDIS Index File, a Doctor Who wiki at Wikicities, which isn't restricted by the same policies as Wikipedia proper. It's another option to consider.

I hope that we can come to an amicable solution for this page. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 02:51, 3 March 2006 (UTC)


I think a synthesis is supposed to mean something which draws a conclusion. Just taking stories which individually have chronological placements and using them to create a list of stories arranged chronologically isn't really a synthesis except in a very trivial sense. Ken Arromdee 02:28, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] BF codes

The codes to unreleased McGann serials have been established here and there, such as the Big Finish website. You'll also notice they don't use slashes here.

As for the "season" divisions, if you can think of something better or more neutral to call them, then by all means go ahead. I'm just following what I see as standard practice. They do need to be broken up, though. There's no good, for instance, throwing the Frobisher stuff in with the Evelyn Smythe material -- and then tacking that all onto the end of season 23. That wouldn't at all reflect the intent of the audios. Heck, the Sixth-Doctor-and-Mel audios are set long after the Evelyn stories, toward the end of the Sixth Doctor's life.

There are really three kinds of Big Finish stories:

1) stories that fill in the cracks, like the random Turlough and Mel and Peri pieces which are set between arbitrary TV episodes;
2) stories in a new ongoing "continuity" that BF has forged for each of the Doctors, most of which are set in new, "phantom seasons" between established TV seasons; and
3) the stories based on the comics and Virgin novels, which (as you'd expect) aren't really intended to fit into the continuity quite as easily -- though there is space for all of them.

It's the second category that's really at issue here, as this is the bulk of the the actual Big Finish "canon" as it were, and each lump of ongoing continuity has its own unique space carved out for it. You can't just ignore this detail, and yet aside from the McGann seasons, Big Finish hasn't -- to my knowledge -- provided any official names for these runs. Again, the only model I have to work with is what I've seen other people using: the "season 6a 6B" template established decades back. Now, this seems functional to me -- and again, it reflects what I've seen elsewhere. I'm open to alternatives, though.

Just for fun, I wonder about the numbering scheme used for the new series episodes in the List of Doctor Who serials. After some pressure, stories like Aliens of London & World War Three got renumbered 164a and 164b. That's a simple and practical way to organize them. I've not seen it done elsewhere, though. Even numbering the new series episodes using the same system as the old strikes me as rather arbitrary, as it's certainly not how the current production team labels things. It is, however, how I've seen other fansites do it -- so all right; fair enough.

I wonder where the "a" and "b" labels come from in this instance, and what distinguishes that situation from the Big Finish one. They both strike me as issues of practicality, more than anything. --Aderack 06:14, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Aside from that DVD case guy (who you notice makes a bunch of random liberties of his own -- 26Q?!), here's another (rather less organized) example. And here's another guy, who has even less of a clue what he's talking about -- yet you see the pattern. Overall I think the organization in this artcle is more conservative than usual. It just reflects the production codes and the content of the audios. --Aderack 06:25, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
In this case, conservative is good - we stick to what is verifiable, reliable and as close to actual fact as possible. --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 07:44, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Upcoming releases

I've added the upcoming releases which have been scheduled and have production codes listed on the Big Finish website. However, I fudged one production code: Red is listed as 7EB, which was already used for Flip-Flop. I've guessed that that was a mistake, and they meant 7ED. But if that guess is too speculative, we can remove it until the website is corrected, or until the audio is released. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 17:19, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Having listened to it, I'm pretty sure it's meant to be FB -- in that it seems like an attempt to somewhat explain why the Doctor became so much darker after season 24. Given that it's either going to be DB or FB, and without absolute clarification either one is an arbitrary choice, I think there's more grounding for the latter. Again, given the way that Big Finish works, I get the impression that's what they were doing here. Changing now, on that basis. --71.139.9.136 02:27, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Unbound

Khaosworks asked whether we thought the Doctor Who Unbound stories should be included on this page. My instinct is no ��— the whole point of the Unbound series was that they were outside of regular Doctor Who continuity, which is what this page is all about. They're listed at List of Doctor Who audio plays by Big Finish, which is appropriate, but I don't think they need to be included here any more than the Sarah Jane Smith or Gallifrey stories do. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 17:49, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

The only reason I thought it might be relevant is because it's directly related to the Doctor, unlike the other series you mention. But I wasn't sure, that's why I commented it out and sought other opinions. Any other thoughts? --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 01:26, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Season 30b?! Heck no!

What is that season 30b stuff? Just because the Ninth Doctor's TV series began didn't mean that Paul McGann stopped being an ongoing Doctor... why isn't this just called "season 31" like it is in any other episode guide?? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.253.46.165 (talk • contribs) 02:10, April 4, 2006 (UTC)

This argument makes sense to me. Although I'm sure the "Season 27/Series 1" debate continues unabated, I don't think that there are many folks who want to say that the 2005 series was Season 31. Given that, I think that if we're going to use conjectural seasons at all we may as well call the last lot of McGann audios (Terror Firma on) "Season 31". Anybody object? —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 06:30, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
I assume the thinking behind this is that while the audios prior to Terror Firma were in discrete seasons, the ones after are not anymore, hence there is a difficulty in saying whether they belong to a particular "season" or not. Hence 30a, in the same way that stuff after Survival is called 26a up to the introduction of Hex, whereupon it becomes 26b. Not that I'm saying it shouldn't be Season 31, but at least there's a consistency to it. --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 07:05, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
I see that reasoning, but I think that it falls down a bit when you consider the difference between the "seasons" created for the Fifth, Sixth and Seventh Doctors and the seasons released for the Eighth Doctor. 5/6/7 are all set in-between existing television stories, and so their "seasons" are given letters to fit in accordingly.
On the other hand, the anon isn't really quite right when he says "like it is in any other episode guide". There may be a guide somewhere that calls it "season 31", but the Canon-Keeper's Guide at OG calls them "Big Finish Eighth Doctor Adventures: Season 1" through 5. That's the problem with arbitrary naming, I suppose. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 08:15, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
I have to go with the Big Finish website on this issue. Firstly, that website states the seasons as Seasons 27 to 30. (This information was stated in the messages they put on the website, not on the monthly listings.) So, everything prior to "Terror Firma" should be under whole numbered seasons, while the "Terror Firma" onwards adventures should be under 30b. --Coreman (talk • contribs)
I see the references to earlier McGann seasons (e.g. "Season 29" here), but the news item about the last McGann "season" (Faith Stealer through The Next Life) don't give it any name ([1]). Given that, and at the risk of sounding like Donald Rumsfeld, I'm not sure that the absence of a "Season 31" mention on the Big Finish website automatically means that it should be called "30b". Frankly, I don't see the website as supporting either "31" or "30b" — either way, it's an arbitrary call. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 01:59, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Veilled Leopard

I'm don't think this story is a Seventh Doctor story (like the article says), so I changed it to 'Other' for now. But it still needs a better classification than that.

[edit] No Place Like Home

When listened to, No place like Home clearly positions itself having taken place after the events of The Church and the Crown as Erimem is vastly more familiar with both the doctor's personality and the TARDIS's workings and interior (the wardrobe) there than in the latter. -Mr.Bob