Talk:Bhaktisvarupa Damodar Swami

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[edit] not correct

Please stop removing valid information about Bhaktisvarupa Damodar Swami. Please see NPOV policy - "All Wikipedia articles and other encyclopedic content must be written from a neutral point of view (NPOV), representing fairly and without bias all significant views" Chopper Dave 01:19, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] explanation

I believe that this section should be written and taken care of by disciples of Sripada Bhaktisvarupa Damodara Swami. My name is Padmalochan das, I live in Denver Colorado and I was his traveling secretary for 11 years from 1995 to 2006.

My wife, Lilavati devi dasi, was the disciple who together with Sacirani devi dasi was selected by the BBT and GBC to write the article on the March issue about Sripada Bhaktisvarupa Damodara Swami Maharaj.

I appreciate the effort of those who write on wikipedia, however, it is my right as disciple to make the adjustments to the final page. For example, we, disciples, do not like the fact that you keep writing about death and cardiac arrest, etc. We already made an official request to the GBC body to delete the iskcon.com page written by Hari Sauri Prabhu in which he mentions cardiac arrest.

If you have any question I would be more than happy to send you my email address. Also, tell me where you are based in the world since many devotees know me. If you are based in UK, please contact Atmanivedana Swami.

If you are a disciple of Sripada Maharaja, please send me your spiritual name.

Padmalochan das, Denver, CO, USA (One of the ecretaries and persnal servants of Bhaktisvarupa Damodara Swami from Oct 1995 Secretary of the Bhaktivedanta Institute in Rome, Italy Treasurer of the 2004 World Congress in Rome, Life and Its Origins.) Padmalochan das 05:16, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Padmalochan das 05:14, 27 April 2007 (UTC)==2nd explanation==

For a while, we should avoid writting ISKCON and this is because of the child abuse and court cases. Sripada Bhaktisvarupa Damodara Swami is the founder of 5 schools in India which he started in the 80s. There is NOT a single case of child abuse in the history of these schools even though we have more than 5000 students of all ages. I am worried that people who visit this wikipedia page might think that the schools founded by Sripada Maharaj were connected to the ISKCON child abuse and court cases. This would be faulse and incorrect. I have already asked some disciples of Sripada Bhaktisvarupa Damodara Swami to write something wonderful about his relationship with Srila Prabhupada. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Padmalochan das (talk • contribs) 04:45, 27 April 2007 (UTC).

I apologise but you unfortunately have a misconception what Wikipedia is. Wikipedia is a free encylopedia, governed by various policies. One such policy I mentioned earlier, the page must represent a Netural Point of View. This means, as mentioned before, that the page must "be written from a neutral point of view (NPOV), representing fairly and without bias all significant views". However, as you have plainly stated above, you disagree with this, and think the page should only reflect your view. This goes directly against Wikipedia policy, and of course comes with consequences.

Now I have respect for your Guru Maharaja and I wish that his page reflects the truth. Removing sections such as ISKCON, and information about his initiation, skews the truth, and so I am forced to revert your changes. For now I will leave them and await your reply (as we don't want to get into an edit war, and break the Three revert rule any further than we already have). However if I don't hear back by tomorrow, I will be reverting the page back to the previous NPOV version. Thank you Chopper Dave 04:47, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Could you write to me at lochan_108@hotmail.com? Are you a member of ISKCON and are you initiated? what is your spiritual name and who is your spiritual master? You do not seem to know the whole situation, I would even be more than happy to call you and speak on the phone. I believe that the truth should be written by people who knew Sripada Bhaktisvarupa Damodara Swami. I do really really appreciated that you waited for my answer before changing everything back as the way you wrote. please feel free to send me an email. I do want to make sure you understand that I am not editing the whole wikipedia but only this page "dedicated" to me spiritual master. Many people in the future might visit this page and I simply want to give a very broadminded description about URI, Metanexus, you are keeping adding aspects about ISKCON, I do not mind I am a memeber of ISKCON Denver, however, because of the court cases, I would prefer vto wait for a while. Please contact me by email anytime you want. Padmalochan das 05:16, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

You wrote: "think the page should only reflect your view". I could say exactly the same thing about you. I am actually representing the view of his disciples. Again, I would be more than happy to call you so that we can discuss everything on the phone. Padmalochan das 05:16, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Hi, thanks for your reply. Unfortunately I don't give out any private details about myself, for privacy reasons. But if it satisfies you, I live in New Zealand. I can understand your compassion to represent your Guru Maharaja as best as possible. Sadly, this isn't always going to abide by Wikipedia policy, and adjustments will have to be made to meet policy. An example of course is removing ISKCON references. Also, there is no point linking to non-existent articles in the "See Also" section, and these should be removed.

"I could say exactly the same thing about you." The truth isn't a Point of View. Censorship of the truth however, is. Chopper Dave 05:05, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Do you know Prananath Prabhu who lives in New Zealand? Padmalochan das 05:14, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

No sorry. Also please sign your posts :) Chopper Dave 05:11, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

One question, do you work for wikipedia or you are a user just like I am? If you do are a user, what right do you have to change what I write? Just curious. If you really want to write about ISKCON, this should be done in a nice way without making it an ALL-ISKCON thing. My proposal is to add a chapter called Vedanta Studies in the biography and there we can mention ISKCON and Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. What you had made was an hare krishna fanatic point of view, in fact, you did not really write about metanexus, URI, the projects, the activities, web links, conferences, science and religion, etc. Your thought and writings about Sripada Bhaktisvarupa Damodara Swami are just limited to the hare krishna world. Padmalochan das 05:21, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Not offences, but an outsider would not get the truth about Sripada Bhaktisvarupa Damodara Swami, his projects and mission. I agree, if you want to add ISKCON, alright, but it should not be an ALL-ISKCON view. We can write a chapter. This is my proposal, let me know what you think. Padmalochan das 05:24, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Finally, the cardiac arrest was written by Hari Sauri Prabhu who was in Mayapur (not in Kolkata) and heard this from someone on the phone. It is not what really happened, we wrote a nice article called Entering the Rasa Lila, this article was written by those who were with Srila Sripada in that moment. You are mentioning about truth but cardiac arrest is not the truth. The link to iskcon.com and cardiac arrest is not correct. Padmalochan das 05:28, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

I am just a user. Of course I have rights as a user, and when an article is NPOV, I can mark it that way. When someone starts a revert war, I can complain to administrators, and so forth. I did not write this article, that is a misconception. I am simply watching over it.

So your proposal is to add "vedanta studies". Why? There is already places for the ISKCON information. Yes I would say the article is ISKCON-centric, not surprising for a member/leader of ISKCON. Anyway, feel free to add additional content, I have no problems (though I will edit if it's POV), but I will be reverting the article back now.

If the information about cardiac arrest is incorrect, please give reference to the actual cause of death and change the article (stating the reference). Unfortunately, "entering rasa lila" will be removed as it's a POV statement.

Finally inregards to "etanexus, URI, the projects, the activities, web links, conferences, science and religion" feel free to add information on these (and please, if possible, references), I have no argument. However please refrain from linking to articles that don't exist. You can tell if it does or doesn't exist by checking in "preview". The title will be red if the article does not exist. Thank you Chopper Dave 05:32, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

I made some changes, you can have a look Padmalochan das 05:50, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

You wrote: ":I am just a user. Of course I have rights as a user, and when an article is NPOV, I can mark it that way." Then you wrote: "Yes I would say the article is ISKCON-centric, not surprising for a member/leader of ISKCON."

How can a person who claims to be iskcon-centric and member/leader of ISKCON can consider what he or she writes to be an absolute NPOV? Padmalochan das 05:57, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/FAQ Avoiding constant disputes How can we avoid constant and endless warfare over neutrality issues?

The best way to avoid warfare over bias is to remember that most of us are reasonably intelligent, articulate people here, or we wouldn't be working on this and caring so much about it. We have to make it our goal to understand each others' perspectives and to work hard to make sure that those other perspectives are fairly represented.

When any dispute arises as to what the article should say, or what is true, we must not adopt an adversarial stance; we must do our best to step back and ask ourselves, "How can this dispute be fairly characterized?" This has to be asked repeatedly as each new controversial point is stated. It is not our job to edit Wikipedia so that it reflects our own idiosyncratic views and then defend those edits against all-comers; it is our job to work together, mainly adding or improving content, but also, when necessary, coming to a compromise about how a controversy should be described, so that it is fair to all sides.

---

I am willing to find a common point but if you remain into a ISKCON-CENTRIC point of view we will never be able to find a common point. A ISKCON-CENTRIC article cannot bring a neutral point of view. ISKCON was one of Sripada Maharaja's projects and activities, one of many. I tried to add a small chapter, I think the size of the VEDANTA chapter should be the same compared to the other chapters. The previous page was iskcon centric and would give the wrong idea to the readers that Bhaktisvarupa Damodara Swami was a ISKCON-CENTRIC person. Padmalochan das 06:09, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

You wrote: "When someone starts a revert war, I can complain to administrators, and so forth." And so can I. Padmalochan das 06:09, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

You wrote: "However, as you have plainly stated above, you disagree with this, and think the page should only reflect your view. This goes directly against Wikipedia policy, and of course comes with consequences."

I think the same of you, what you are writing is your ISKCON-CENTRIC point of view.

I do agree that we should not have a war, I simply feel we should not have an ISKCON-CENTRIC point of view, ISKCON-CENTRIC is not a Neutral Point of View. If you think that an ISKCON-CENTRIC point of you is a NEUTRAL POINT of VIEW then we can both complain to the administration and have them decide, if this is what you want. Padmalochan das 06:20, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

As explained, I didn't write the article, thus I am not the one writing the so-called "ISKCON-CENTRIC" POV. What i'm complaining about, as already mentioned, is the censorship of the truth. I have no problem with you adding whatever you want that's non-ISKCON to the article, you can see I haven't reverting anything that isn't. What i'm reverting is you removing the valid ISKCON information. You cannot say he was not a leader in ISKCON, and yet you were insisting on removing it. Thus you are failing to meet the NPOV policy.

I am upset this has ended up in such a large argument, but you have to admit that you did come here with an agenda to represent a particular POV, you even admit this earlier.

The current 'ISKCON' section is unsatisfactory and makes it sound like BSDS was only a member for 8 years. I will be doing so editing on the article to amend this and a few other things.

Finally, please if possible include information about BSDS's passing, without any agenda. Thank you Chopper Dave 09:34, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Also, please learn how to use footnotes properly, it will help enhance the article.

Another request/suggestion : if you have a nice photo of your Gurumaharaja, it could be used to replace the current photo, which unfortunately doesn't look so nice due to it's low resolution. Thanks Chopper Dave 09:47, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

I made a change in the chapter ISKCON, Svarupa Damodara and not Bhaktisvarupa Damodara, Bhakti was added later at the timne of Sannyasa initiation. Padmalochan das 14:19, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Also, not sure why you removed this sentense which is coming from the URI page (reference) … a leader of extraordinary vision, gentleness, determination, humility and generosity; the sort of leader our world so desperately needs. He enjoyed his dialogues with Nobel laureates. He used to sing like a young boy. Always an ambassador of peace, a visionary who dreamed a lot and a prophet of Vedantic lore. Padmalochan das 14:23, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

By adding "was a disciple of ... Iskcon" on the first line you are making it again an ISKCON centric page, because this seems to be what you really want. While my point is that we should have a very broad open minded intro and than a chapter on ISKCON later, as you punctually made. Padmalochan das 14:27, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

With all due respect, was Bhaktisvarupa Damodara Goswami more famous as scientist or religious scholar in the eyes of the general public than he was as a leader within ISKCON? As a leader and initiating guru within the movement I find this hard to believe - compared to say George Harrison, who also had a devout interest in Gaudiya Vaishnavism, but was much more well known as a musician and Beatles member. This article has to comply to Wikipedia policies first and foremost. The quotation given above: "a leader of extraordinary vision, gentleness ..." may well be true - but is not really what constitutes a factual statement suitable for an encyclopedia. Please forgive my boldness in this regard. Best Wishes & Hare Krishna ys, Gouranga(UK) 15:59, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Haribol GourangaUK, you wrote:"was Bhaktisvarupa Damodara Goswami more famous as scientist or religious scholar in the eyes of the general public than he was as a leader within ISKCON?"

The answer is YES! With all due respect, you see Sripada Bhaktisvarupa Damodara Swami only with a point of view of a hare krishna or ISKCON member. Actually, to the eyes of the general public he is more famous as a religious scientist being one the the Global Council Memebers of the URI (this is equal to the GBC member position in ISKCON) and member of Metanexus, he was even awarded the Metanexus prize for two consecutive years: 2004 and 2005. To the eyes of the general public both URI and Metanexus are more important than ISKCON. This is hard to be believed in the eyes of two hare krishna members such as you (GourangaUK) and Dave Chopper. Since I travelled with him for 11 years, I could easily see that. He was not only an ISKCON GBC as you are trying to show in the page, he was much more than that and again to the eyes of the general public he is more famous as a religious scientist. This is clear to me simply because I spent 11 years travelling with him. Padmalochan das 16:42, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

You wrote in the first line: "Bhaktisvarupa Damodar Swami (1937-2006) original name Dr. Thoudam Damodar Singh —scientist, spiritualist, and teacher— was a disciple of A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, and leading member of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness (also known as the Hare Krishnas or ISKCON)."

I beleive this is not fair to the general public simply because this is a ISKCON-CENTRIC point of view. Padmalochan das 16:49, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

I do beleive that both aspects should be there, my point is that this page should not be ISKCON-HARE KRISHNA-CENTRIC, that's it. Padmalochan das 16:49, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

First line has been made more open minded, able to reach the general people rather than only the Hare Krishnas: Sripada Bhaktisvarupa Damodar Swami (1937-2006) original name Dr. Thoudam Damodar Singh was a scientist, spiritualist, teacher and poet. Padmalochan das 18:09, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Why not have ISKCON in the introduction, as well as URI and Metanexus? If these 3 things are the 3 ways people recognise him, then they should be included in the introduction. The "ISKCON-CENTRIC" that we bring is because that's all we know him for. I encourage you to add other elements to balance it, rather then remove ISKCON info. Chopper Dave 18:50, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

You wrote: "The "ISKCON-CENTRIC" that we bring is because that's all we know him for." Believe me Dwayne I know this, you are a member of the Hare Krishnas in NZ and Gouranga in UK. Obviously, you know Bhaktisvarupa Damadora Swami as a member and former leader of ISKCON. What I tried to explain is that he was an important figure beyond the ISKCON walls and borders. Regarding the general people, you might be surprised to know that a few know the hare krishna movement but many do know the United Nations, URI is actually a branch and recognized entity of the UN. It might be surprising to know that after the 9/11 attack, URI was able to organize a peace meeting at the UN plaza in NY just a month after the attack, that was 10/11. I know this because I attended that meeting with Sripada Bhaktisvarupa Damodara Maharaj.

Personally, I respect the nice service offered by you and Gouranga, I am just worried that you are portraying Bhaktisvarupa Damodara Swami as an ISKCON centric person while he was not. Not sure if you ever met him but he was very open minded and he would highly respect other religions as well. I do agree that ISKCON is part of Sripada Maharaj's file and we should add it. I simply feel that if we write this on the first life we again make it ISKCON CENTRIC. The sentence I used, the first line, is very open minded for the general public, this is not URI, not METANEXUS not ISKCON, it is just an open sentence that everyone, even those not familiar with these names (URI, METANEXUS and ISKCON) can understand. If we start quoting institutions we just stop the smoothness of the figure of a open minded person open to all religions and faiths. I would invite you to visit the URI page, Bhaktisvarupa Damodara Swami fully agreed to the vision of a United Religion Initiative expressed by URI. While doing a research on what you wrote I found this page http://www.gaurayoga.co.nz/index.php This is a nice project which looks open minded to me, people can be attracted to yoga, vegetarian food and then find their way to the Vaisnava tradition. It is simply a lot of sugar which surrounds a medicine. I believe the image of Bhaktisvarupa Damodara Swami on wikipedia should be very open minded without. It should be focused on the person and not on institutions, the institutions are important and their projects are wonderful, see URI, Metanexus, or Iskcon. However, we do have pages about them on wikipedia and the general public can make a research directly through their pages. With Bhaktisvarupa Damodara Swami, we should give an idea of the person, his character, his ideas, his projects. ISKCON was one of the projects in his service to Srila Prabhupada. It is good to mention these aspect but to be more open minded to attract more people who might be not familiar with ISKCON, I would not suggest to make it ISKCON CENTRIC. Please do not forget one aspect, Bhaktisvarupa Damodara Swami was an important figure within ISKCON and he touched the hearts of many ISKCON devotees, but at the same time he was also an important figure for others, people of other faiths, scientists, people for different countries, etc. To conclude, Bhaktisvarupa Damodara Swami is not even only URI, Metanexus and ISKCON, he is much more than this, he was not within these 3 walls either. He is the founder of 5 schools with more than 5000 students in India. He is a founder of 2 ayurvedic clinics in India and France. He was a poet and vaisnava song writer, he was an artist, a dancer, and much more. My final suggestion is to keep the first life very open minded. The other activities can go within the projects and all be well balanced. By doing this I feel we can give a wonderful image to the GENERAL PEOPLE who visit wikipedia. We are on wikipedia, I appreciate free writing from those who either knew him, heard from right sources about him or made a sincere and serious research about him. Those who enter into one of these 3 categories have all the right to write, I do not want to make this page MY PAGE. I do believe that there should be discussion. My humble request is PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE let's do not make wikipedia into ISKCONPEDIA, I am not against ISKCON, do not misunderstand me, I am a member of good standing of ISKCON Denver. But after 15 years in the movement I like to be open minded and I do believe that we can approach people and share of beliefs by being open minded and willing to listen to others first. Thank you for opening a dialogue with me. I spend 11 years with my spiritual master and I would like to share what I learned from him or at least make sure this is evident on this page. There should be unity among vaisnavas groups, among other religions and among people of different countries and ethnic groups. Padmalochan das 21:41, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Okay, I can agree with this, but if possible please fill out the article with these other things that you keep mentioning - URI, Metanexus etc (with references where possible). Also, I do not appreciate that you have addressed me by my name, as I mentioned earlier I prefer to maintain my privacy, as I have previously had trouble with some fanatical persons. Chopper Dave 00:11, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] an analysis on the first lines

Sripada Bhaktisvarupa Damodar Swami (1937-2006) original name Dr. Thoudam Damodar Singh was a scientist, spiritualist, teacher and poet. >>> this first line gives a very broad and open minded description of Bhaktisvarupa Damodara Swami, no institutions are quoted, we are simply describing his personality. People as average spend 5 seconds on a page, within these first lines we are using words that everyone can understand. If we start using ISKCON, METANEXUS or URI we introduce compliceted words some people might not be familiar with.

He is known for his pioneering efforts for more than thirty years to interface between both scienctific and religion studies. He was the International director of the Bhaktivedanta Institute which promotes the study of the relationship between science and Vedanta. He is also a founding member and regional director of United Religion Initiatives and founding rector of University of Bhagavata Culture in Manipur. He also authored and edited several books and organized a number of significant conferences and world congresses around the world.[ >>>>> here we introduce science and religion first, one of the most important projects of Sripada Maharaj, we introduce the Bhaktivedanta Institute, please do not forget that Sripada Bhaktisvarupa Damodara Swami was appointed GBC for the Bhaktivendata Institute by Srila Prabhupada in March 1977 during the GBC meeting. He was not appointed GBC of ISKCON. Therefore, if we speak of Bhaktisvarupa Damodara Swami the Bhaktivedanta Institute should be quoted first. Then, we introduce URI and Univeristy of Bhagavat Culture.

Again my proposal is to avoid complicated words of not-fully-known-institutions to the general public. Let's do not forget that Sripada Maharaj was extremely well known in many circles of science, art, education, United Nations, etc. Some people might read a book about him and search on wikipedia, they might not be looking necessarily for iskcon, perhaps they are doing a reserch of the principle of United Religions or Science and Religion or Theobilogy, which was a term invented by Sripada Maharaj, Spiriton is another therm invented by him too. Perhaps, invented is not the right word, but it should give you an idea. Padmalochan das 21:58, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] a complex figure within ISKCON

Let's do not forget that there are some ISKCON members who are just ISKCON members, they just offer their 100% serivce to ISKCON. However, there are other members who work on other projects, have other (more) interests, different jobs. Just like in your case Dwayne, you work for a Game Development Company. You might have a side of your personality focused on Game Development Software or Art. To confine you only within ISKCON would not give the right image of what you are. It might be easier to write about a leader of ISKCON who offers his/her serivices in ISKCON 100%. Regarding Bhaktisvarupa Damodara Swami, he offered 100% service to his spiritual master, Srila Prabhupada. He would offer this service through ISKCON, URI, METANEXUS, Art, Education, Vedic Culture, Vaisnava Culture, etc (not only ISKCON). Someone might say, let's write about Srila Prabhupada on the first line. Again, we are trying to reach the general public. We use common words first: education, art, science, religion. Then, once the reader is interested we introduce, Prabhupada, Bhaktivedanta Institute, URI, Metanexus, etc. Just like Dwayne, one day, he might develop a game on Ramayana, this would not be within ISKCON but would definitely please the Guru Parampara and the Vaisvavas in general. Another person, might work in the bank but tell to one or two close friends about Vedic Culture and Vaisnavism, again this person is offering service to the Guru Parampara while not being a 100% full time temple devotee. We need to be more open minded, some ISKCON leaders were and are involved 360 degrees on different projects and platforms just to reach the hearts of more souls. We should not see everything can go on just as a temple ISKCON-CENTERED devotee. We can be members of ISKCON and at the same time have our own life. In the same way, a leader of ISKCON can be a leader of ISKCON while being a leader of URI, etc. We are trying to reach the general public, that's what WIKIPEDIA is all about, let's give an open minded not ISKCON-METANEXUS-URI-CENTRIC point of view. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Padmalochan das (talk • contribs) 22:16, 27 April 2007 (UTC).

[edit] GourangaUK editing

I like the editing made by GourangaUK about the chapter he titled Devotional Studies. After coming into contact with members of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness, Thoudam Damadar received initiation from A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada at the Sri Sri Radha Krishna Temple in Los Angeles, on 30 June 1971, and was given the name Svarupa Damodar das. He studied the philosophy and practice of Vaishnavism for the following 7 years under the guidance of his spirtual master, Prabhupada. Prabhupada appointed Bhaktisvarupa Damodara Swami as International Director of the Bhaktivedanta Institute in 1974.

It does not look like written by a hare krishna which is exectly the style that we should use in this page in order to reach the general public and users of wikipedia. Padmalochan das 22:32, 27 April 2007 (UTC) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Padmalochan das (talk • contribs) 22:31, 27 April 2007 (UTC).

[edit] the main reference

The main reference we are all using even sometimes without knowing it is actually this book Bhagavat Sevarpanam - published by University of Bhagavat Culture, Dec 2005, 280 pages. All the parts about the life of Sripada Bhaktisvarupa Damodara Swami which you have taken from several on-line sources are all coming from this book. The on-line sources failed to quote this book (unfairly), however, this is the place where they all have taken information about Sripada Maharaj'life, family menbers, etc. We worked for two years on this book starting from the beginning of the year 2004 to the end of 2005, I was one of the photo editors, my wife was one of the writing editors, Jivan Mukta das was the chief editor. This book was read and edited further by Sripada Bhaktisvarupa Damodara Swami who said if someone is going to write about my life I prefer to see it now so that I can make the right corrections. We consider this book to be the most accurate source of information about the life of Sripada Bhaktisvarupa Damodara Swami, it is quite big, 280 pages and covers practically everthing from 1937 to 2005. As I said before, the on-line writers who wrote some on-line articles after the departure of Sripada Maharaj simply copied whole sentences from this book. Unfortunately, they failed to quote their source. Padmalochan das 22:49, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] born in a vaisnava family

Sorry if I am very long but I want to make sure those who edit understand the figure of Sripada Bhaktisvarupa Damodara Swami. Sripada Maharaj was born in a vaisnava family in the former kingdom of Manipur, a Vaisnava Kingdom (now a State within the country of India). An ISKCON-CENTRIC point of view would mislead the readers by making them believe that Sripada Maharaj learned about the vaisnava culture by meeting the hare krishna devotees in California. He was actually a vaisnava from birth, his father was a sankirtan leader, that was his father "profession". When he met Srila Prabhupada he simply commited his life in fullfilling his Spiritual Master's Instructions which were many and one of them is the Bhaktivedanta Institute. Again, I have to repeat myself in 1974 was appointed director of the BI, in March 1977 become GBC for the Bhaktivedanta Institute. His position as ISKCON leader came later.Padmalochan das 23:01, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

For references, see Bhagavat Sevarpanam Book or Vedabase Folio Padmalochan das 23:01, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

So as i've suggested please include references in the article. When referencing a book, you can reference the page of that book. Please see the footnotes section of Wikipedia help to understand how to cite sources correctly. Obviously you know a lot about Bhaktisvarupa Damodar Swami, so using this book as your reference the article could easily be expanded.Chopper Dave 00:22, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

I can do this but I will need 1 week Padmalochan das 01:21, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Path of improvement

Ways to improve this article:

Change the photo for a higher resolution shot (the easiest way to meet the copyright standard for wikipedia is to upload a photo you personally shot and make it public domain).
Add references throughout the article. Currently the article isn't well referenced. Having stated some places where people can enquire information in the references section is very bland, and having more accurate references by using footnotes and so forth would strengthen the article.
The article currently doesn't mention BSDS taking sanyassa. This is important to establish the source of his name.
Expand!! Add more about his achievements.
The article currently does not contain any information about his passing (or, as it is preferred in wikipedia standards, death). Please add this with references.

Thank you.

Chopper Dave 00:22, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

In Wikipedia any article can be improved, I think we made a first step by avoiding a ISKCON-CENTRIC page. I like to follow the viasnava etiquette since we are writing about a vasnava. This might not be in the wikikedia codes of writing, however, I still like to follow the vaisnava etiquette. I contacted several disciples and people who could give a nice input about this article. It will take a little time but at the end we will have a nice page, hopefully, not anymore ISKCON-CENTRIC and open to different views of people who knew different sides of Sripada Bhaktisvarupa Damodara Swami's mood. I contacted them and they are willing to add their inputs. Let me know if you have any pressure and if you want everything completed within minutes or hours, as far as I am concerned I prefer to wait some time in order to have nice references and inputs. You do not want to mention your name, however, if you do a search on google of Dave Chopper you immidiately get your name, family name, what you do and even phone number. I understand about privacy but at the same time it is good that the person who makes changes to an article be identified. If you are afraid of being identified as you wrote "by fanatic people", perhaps, you should traget other pages, not connected to religion. Again simply by typing Dave Chopper, I was able to find everything about you and this is the problem of google. A final note about death of a sannyasi in India. Keep in mind that to identify the real cause of death you need a general autopsy, in the Western Hospitals, they do this within minutes. In India, the country respects the passing of a sadhu-sannyasi, therefore when sannyasis pass away there is not an autopsy, they are not even brought to an hospital to identify the reason of their departure, this is the tradition and beliefs of India. Srila Prabhupada, Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati, Bhaktivinoda Takhura, Bhaktisvarupa Damodara Swami and many others were not brought to an hospital after their departure. Therefore, there is not a recorded prove of the reason why they passed away. This of course might create problems, there are some web pages which mention poisoning, etc. These are teories that will never be proven, again because the bodies of the sannyasis do not have to be brought to a hospital after their departure. Still I can't understand why for you is so important to identify the material reason why a person dies. If that makes you happy, according to the kaviraj who was with Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada at the time of his departure he mentioned organ failure, however, Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada was placed in Samadhi without having his body brought to an hospital, since there is not an official statement from the hospital nothing can be proven and therefore, nothing should be written on wikipedia since cannot be proven by an official document. Those who support material death or poisoning theories have to accept the fact that the bodies of the sannyasis are never brought to an hospital and therefore there is not going to be an offical examination at the hospital.

Hari Sauri Prabhu is the only person who wrote cardiac arrest about Bhaktisvarupa Damodara Swami's departure, when one of the disciples of Sripada Maharaj questioned him about his references or source, he said he received this on the phone by a brahmacari who did not meantion his name. Therefore, I cannot accept the statement of Hari Sauri Prabhu to be valid. Keep in mind that Hari Sauri Prabhu was not present, he was in Mayapur, 150Km away from Kolkata, he is not even a doctor, nor does he have any knowledge about medicine. Please anytime you quote from a web page make sure this web page or writer is using references. Any person can write anything on the internet, however, for Wikipedia we need reliable sources. Padmalochan das 01:46, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Please don't misinterpret me, simply I want to include that he is no longer with us. The exact cause does not need to be explained, it can say simply the date time location with reference, like it did previously (though misinformed with reason of passing). Typing "Dave Chopper" in google does not immediately bring up anything about me, infact nothing in the first 4 pages (I did not investigate futher). The point is that I prefer my privacy, I stated this. You then looked me up in google, posted information here, so forth. Just because something is easy, does not mean it has to be done.

In regards to additions to the article, I have no problem with timeframes, I am simply making suggestions from my previous experience.

The article will be edited to "Wikipedia codes of writing" where required. Avoiding this points the article at risk of deletion and your account at risk of ban. Simply we follow the rules. Chopper Dave 02:00, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

I am afraid I am not understanding your point, what are you trying to say exactly? I think right now the article is edited based on the wikipedia codes of writing if you feel it is not please give an explanation. I do agree we have to work on the references by quoting the book and pages, this takes a little time. Are you willing to give some time? Are you fixing a dead-line. The way the article was before, edited by you, was quoting wrong sources or sources which did not have the decency to quote their sorces (Bhagavat Sevarpanam). They took sentences from the book without quoting it, this is in violation of the international rules of copyright, Bhagavat Sevarpanam is copyrighted, you were quoting some quotes which were violating the internationa laws of copyright. Padmalochan das 02:10, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

I have no problem with the current version, if I did I would edit. To follow guidelines, the entire section which you claim is lifted from Bhagavat Sevarpanam should be removed. Having no access to his work, I cannot do so, so please do. Chopper Dave 02:40, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

You wrote:"Simply we follow the rules." Well you (or the writer) did not follow the rules: 1. because you (or the writer) quoted about cardiac arrest from unreliable sources 2. you (or the writer) took parts from the Bhagavat Sevarpanam book from a web page which did not quote the book. And therefore you did not quote the book either. 3. you (or the writer) are writing about a person without quoting reliable sources or/and without knowing that the only book written about the life of Bhaktisvarupa Damodara Swami is Bhagavatam Sevarpanam and I happen to be one of the editors of such book. Please do not take offences, I am trying to be professional and willing to have people respect copyrights and reliable sources when writing about a person. Padmalochan das 02:18, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Hari.

I quoted that source as it was from a reliable website. When the source was said to be wrong, it was removed and not reinstated. How is this breaking the rules?

I didn't write the page, simply I have done some editing, I cannot be at blame as such. Simply I am trying to improve the page, and I appriciate that you are also trying to do so. I am sorry that I have to come in with the Wikipedia standards, but this is to protect the page.

Please sign your sentence otherwise I cannot know if it is from Dave Chopper or others. I am not saying I am going to sue someone. I said that the rules were not followed for some time. I appreciated you deleted the wrong source. Going back to death, I hope you have understood that it is difficult to mention the reasons of the departure of a Swami who leaves his body in India. We have to respect the beliefs and laws of India and I am sure wikipedia wants to do this as well. However, in some case it is possible to prove the departure ad this in case of: - accident - desease such as virus, cancer, tumor, etc - death in a hospital (proven by documets signed by the hospitals) If a Swami departs in India in a bed not within the hospital is impossible to prove anything. I say, unfortunately for those who always need a material reason for everything.

The following statements cannot considered to be valid - a statement from a brahmacari on the phone - a statement from people who are not doctors - a statemnt from a kariraj (ayurvedic doctor) - even statments from doctors or nurses who have not made any test or autopsy on the body of a person who died. Even a written statement from a doctor has to be proven by medical tests or autopsy

The statement from a hospital of a person who died in the hospital is valid because there is the signature of at least two doctors and there are tests or autopsy.

Finally, we have to be very careful when we touch the elements to prove death, this is in general, not only for devotees, vaisnavas or Swami. We have to be careful because when a person dies there are legal implications which you can understand and I am not going to explain. If a rich business person dies there might be an insurance, other people who have the right to receive his fortune etc. The insurance might not be wiling to pay, people might not have their rights on the rich person's fortune based on the reason why a person dies. If the rich businessman for examples receives an autopsy and they prove he commited suicide, the insurance might have the right not to pay, etc. etc. etc. We should be very very careful when we write about the death of a person, there are hundreds of serious legal implications and I would like to avoid them. Padmalochan das 03:03, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Hi Dave, regarding privacy I simply used your fist name even though I even know your family name. You told me of the problems you had and therefore I am not even using anymore your real first name.

Regarding death, you wrote:":Please don't misinterpret me, simply I want to include that he is no longer with us." We wrote WAS several times, we even have the year of birth and death. This should make people understand that he is not longer with us. As I wrote before, I do not like to mention specific reasons or places of death of any person. Simply, I do not like to specify because I know that when people die there might be legal complications, to avoid problems with law I prefer to be soft about these delicate legal statements such as death. Padmalochan das 03:08, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Hari. All I am asking for is that the previous section is reinstated without the cause of death. For example : "On the 2nd of October 2006, Bhaktisvarupa Damodar Swami died in Kolkata, India. He was sixty-nine years old.". Since the article is choronological, this could be towards the end. This event is very easy to get reference for and thus should be included. You are mentioning law and so forth, however this information is available all over the internet so there should not be any problem including it. Chopper Dave 08:41, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

You wrote:"I have no problem with the current version, if I did I would edit. To follow guidelines, the entire section which you claim is lifted from Bhagavat Sevarpanam should be removed. Having no access to his work, I cannot do so, so please do."

Yes I really appreciate your help because you have more knowledge of wikipedia and its rules. From me side I do have knowledge of laws and international copyrights simply because of my studies. I do have some knowledge of Sanskrit and the life of Bhaktisvarupa Damodara Swami. I think now, we are both on tune on the style of this page. This is thanks to dialogue and open discussions. I will work on the references from Bhagavat Sevarpanam, I just need a little time, after all I have to go through a 280 page book. Padmalochan das 03:13, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Clarification of name

Is it "Damodara" or "Damodar"? I note that Prabhupada writes "Damodara" in letters.

Also, is it Swami or Goswami? I have seen pages with both. Chopper Dave 00:35, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

answer 1 - it can be both but because in the legal name there is Damodar we should use Damodar otherwise it can be more confusing. Again, we should keep in mind wikipedia is for everyone not only hare krishnas or people familiar with hindu or sanskrit terminology.

answer 2 - Both are correct, they have the same meaning, however, it is better to use Swami simply because it is a standard used by our main reference book Bhagavat Sevarpanam. If you want to go into ISKCON codes, which can or cannot be used within a wikipedia page (up to the editors or writers), they use goswami for a person who was married before and swami for a person who was not. Bhaktisvarupa Damodara Swami was a naistika brahmacari, therefore, in ISKCON, they would use Swami. I think mainly we can say we use Swami because of our main reference book: Bhagavat Sevarpanam. Padmalochan das 02:04, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

"we should keep in mind wikipedia is for everyone not only hare krishnas or people familiar with hindu or sanskrit terminology.". I realise this, simply I am making sure the page has the correct title. Thanks for the clarification. Chopper Dave 02:31, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Deleting honorific titles

I appreciated that you deleted the honorific title because against the wikipedia codes. But could you give at least three references from different sources (not all from ISKCON) which can explain how the word Sripada can be identified as a honorific title? Because The Dalai Lama is utilized in wikipedia but that is a honorific title according to the Tibetan tradition. In wikipedia, they are not using His Holiness The Dalia Lama. Now, his holiness is a honorific title according to the English language but Dalai Lama is not according to the English language, however, the Dalai Lama is a honorific title according to the Tibetan tradition. Here, we are not using His Holiness Sripada Bhaktisvarupa Damodara Swami, but we are simply using Sripada Bhaktisvarupa Damodara Swami. I wonder why are we allowed to use Dalai Lama as tibetan honorific title and not Sripada? ISKCON made an internal iskcon law that the word pada added to a name is honorific, however, we need to have some reliable references that this is the case. If we do analyse the word Sri-Pada based on the sanskrit dictionary we can find out the meaning which is ONE WHO CAN GIVE KRISHNA (SRI) TO OTHERS. Unless we can find reliable sources, not only internal iskcon laws (and iskcon law is not part of the wikipedia codes), (iskcon laws are not even part of any codes in the western and eastern world), I wonder how wikipedia should suspend this page if there is not any way for them to know that this is an honorific title. Based on the sanskrit dictionary, it is not a honorific title but can be simply translated as teacher or one who can teach about Krishna. Again, I would like to see some OFFICIAL sources which translate the word Sripada as being a honorific title. However, I do agree that His Holiness, His Divine Grace, His Majesty are indeed honorific titles of the English language and in fact I did not use them. Padmalochan das 02:45, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Again, we are trying to make a open to general public page, without any bias from a ISKCON-CENTRIC prospective or from a ISKCON-CENTRIC person. If ISKCON considers pada to be honorific that is ok with me within ISKCON. However, Wikipedia is a open to general public place, therefore, the word PADA as a honorific title has to be proven by reliable sorces such as sanskrit discionaries, important and recognized hindu or sanskrit institutes, etc. I am not adding the word SRIPADA back because I respect your opinion and I would like to hear from you first. Padmalochan das 02:45, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

An explanation - I might sound like a person against ISKCON, Well I am not. I am not against ISKCON as I said I am a member or it but I am against the ISKCON-CENTRIC view. Iskcon laws should be respected by iskcon members and within iskcon borders, however, we can't force outsiders to follow ISKCON laws. If we were writing on ISKCONPEDIA I would have followed ISKCON rules, however, we are on wikipedia and we should not be ISKCON-CENTRIC. Padmalochan das 03:31, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

I just found some interesting sources about the meaning of SRIPADA, according to Swami Bodhayan Maharaja, SRIPADA means one who can give Krishna to others. I have an official letter written by him. SRIPADA is a title, not honorific. I even found several OFFICIAL documents written by ISKCON leaders in which they use the word SRIPADA Bhaktisvarupa Damodara Swami. I have them and I can show them and their names, if that is really important. My understanding is that even within ISKCON the word PADA is accepted if used for a person who passed away and for the following reasons: - it is used but not in official publications - it is used but not in public (such as ISKCON centers or temples) This was a GBC resolution, if someone wants the exact quote and in which year it was published I can do this by looking inside my files. This is a discussion within ISKCON circles because based on wikipedia we have to prove the SRIPADA is honorific and we can't only quote ISKCON for that. Padmalochan das 03:45, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Meaining of DALIA LAMA Dalai Lama or Grand Lama or one of the two grand lamas http://www.answers.com/topic/panchen-lama

Other meaning Ocean of Wisdom or one who is an ocean of wisdom http://www.tibet.net/hhdl/eng/

"great scholar" or one who is a great scholar http://www.answers.com/topic/panchen-lama

These are honorific titles based on the Tibetan language but are still well present on the wikipedia page about the Dalai Lama.

Even the title Prabhupada is present at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhaktivedanta

I wonder why Sripada should be deleted since considered by you Dave a honorific title against the wikipedia rules. Padmalochan das 05:00, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

I wonder if this can again be considered ISKCON-CENTRIC bias. Because of the ISKCON law which does not really apply to this case. Padmalochan das 05:02, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

My point is that the title Dalai Lama should be utilized on wikipedia because that's how we call and identify the Dalai Lama. In the same way, I believe that we should use the title Prabhupada because this is how many people do identify Prabhupada. In the same way, we should use the title Sripada because this is how many people identify him. However based on wikipedia rules we do not use titles such as His Holiness or His Divine Grace. Padmalochan das 05:05, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Dear Prabhu, Sripada is clearly an honorific Sanskrit title (it is like saying 'your holiness' [1]) and thus should not really be included according to Wiki guidelines. I was not aware of any ISKCON resolutions about the use of the term, which would obviously be irrelevant to Wikipedia as you say above but am familiar with it's general usage. In terms of the "ISKCON centric" issue, anyone who performs a simple Google search on Bhaktisvarupa Damodara will find numerous websites which illustrate Bhaktisvarupa Damodara's links with Prabhupada and ISKCON, this wikipedia article will not have much of an effect either way. I have moved the reference to Prabhupada and ISKCON further down in the introduction which hopefully gives more of a balance, but it should definitely be in there somewhere. Rather than debate each point at length, I wonder if it might be best to simply add as much information into the article as possible, and then we can work from there. You obviously have a much greater knowledge of the subject matter than ourselves - once the information is included with the article we can then work together in regards to the appropriate writing style and page format etc... ? Hare Krishna, ys, Gouranga(UK) 12:23, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Gourange Prabhu, regarding the title SRIPADA, I will leave with that, but I asked three references, you provided one from ISKCON. Keep in mind iskcon is not authority of everything. How can according to sankrit SRI PADA be translated into HIS HOLINESS? This is very surprising. Also, you still did not answer my question why you are keeping the honorific title PRABHUPADA on the wikipedia page, I wonder why you are not changing that. I provided three references from different sources that proved DALAI LAMA is honorific title. You wrote: "I have moved the reference to Prabhupada and ISKCON further down in the introduction which hopefully gives more of a balance." And and I have appreciated that. You wrote: "I wonder if it might be best to simply add as much information into the article as possible, and then we can work from there." Yes but at the same time the secret of internet articles is to be short and go right to the point. I do not think we should have a very long page, just basic details and a few links. As I told to Dave Chopper, the main reference book is Bhagavat Sevarpanam, keep in mind that in the whole history of ISKCON they simply made one BTG issue in all these years. Others are web links which actually were made in three seconds after the departure of Bhaktisvarupa Damodara Swami and in which as I said they simply copied here and there from Bhagavat Sevarpanam. Bhagavat Sevarpanam is 280 pages, it will take me some time to add something. Once I do, you will be the first to know. do not add advertisements Padmalochan das 06:05, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Removal of Sampradaya Caitanya link on top right: explanation >>> if you want to add links, do it in the link section which is located at the bottom. Do not add links which are not strictly related to the person on the top right side. Padmalochan das 05:05, 22 March 2007 (UTC)