Talk:Betty Boop

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[edit] Jewish?

I have seen websites that assert Betty was Jewish. I was always under the impression, for reasons I am uncertain about, that she was Italian. With a nondescript last name, and a New York accented voice, it's a bit hard to tell what she really was, other than a generic 1920s "flapper" girl. However, there is one possible clue, in this old joke: Q - What's the difference between a Jewish girl and a Catholic girl? A - Catholic girls don't believe in sex before marriage, and Jewish girls don't believe in sex after marriage. Since Betty was apparently protective of her virginity, that would tilt the scales toward the Italian, si? Wahkeenah 02:45, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

<chuckle> Unless we can find a cartoon or Fleischer memo or something that says Betty is Jewish or Italian or Hungarian or whatever, I think it's best to assert no particular ethnicity/religion for her in the article. However, if someone finds a published source that argues her ethnicity (there are lots of analyses of old cartoons these days), that might be worth mentioning. Amcaja 13:23, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
She was portrayed as Jewish in "Minnie the Moocher".
How, specifically? Wahkeenah 00:15, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
She was portrayed as a German-American Jew [1] [2] [3]
In "Minnie the Moocher," her parents are portrayed as being outwardly Jewish. Her mother and father both speak Yiddish in the short. It's not all too much of a surprise, since the Fleischer brothers were Jewish. (Ibaranoff24 23:07, 3 November 2005 (UTC))

I always thought of her being east european. User:khanearl

  • I'm thinking that even if she was initially portrayed as Jewish, unless something was made of that, it doesn't really belong in the article. It's like, Myron Cohen was a Jewish comedian, he told lots of ethnic Jewish stories and jokes. Arguably, Alan King was also. Fran Drescher also milks her ethnicity for her act. But Jerry Seinfeld does not rely a lot on Jewish ethnic humor, right? So is he still a "Jewish comedian"? I might make the same argument about George Burns, who was Jewish and married an Irish woman, Gracie Allen, but I don't think much of their act centered on ethnicity as such. Similarly, is there very much of Betty Boop's humor that centers on her being (maybe) Jewish? Or not? Of course, technically, Betty is not anything religious, because she's only a cartoon character. Wahkeenah 11:55, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
There's an article on this very question here. Unfortunately, it's protected by "Project Muse", which stymies pretty much 75% of Google Scholar searches I do. At any rate, it's probably not out of line to mention this line of thinking in the article and to talk about "Minnie the Moocher". I'd just want to make sure the information was sourced. (As for sources for the rest of the article, I'll try to add them once I get my animation books out of storage.) Amcaja 14:28, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
The most obvious question to ask is, "Why does it matter? Who cares?" Maybe somebody thinks it's important. I don't. So I'll confine my comments to here, and stay out of any pending edit wars. 0:) Wahkeenah 16:42, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

If someone says in "Minnie" the parents are specifically Yiddish rather than generic MittleEuropean, I'll provisionally take your word for it... but I don't see that this one cartoon makes Betty a "Jewish" character. In various other cartoons from the era she is portrayed as a cabaret dancer, a race-car driver, a Queen, a chess-piece, a Kansas farm-girl... "Minnie" may be a better than average Betty Boop cartoon, but I see no reason to assume that the Betty Boop in this cartoon is somehow more the "real Betty" than that in the other cartoons. Boop, -- Infrogmation 04:33, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

I agree with Infrogmation. Trying to find "canon" in short-subject cartoons from this era is a losing proposal. It's the same mentality that periodically has someone add "Dumas" to the Daffy Duck page as his middle name, based simply on a one-off gag. That said, I haven't yet read the links mentioned above, and I have no problem with someone adding a line to the article saying that "In 'Minnie the Moocher', Betty is depicted as a Jewish immigrant" or whatever. Might even elaborate on the Fleischers being Jewish. But please don't change the first sentence to read, "Betty Boop is a Jewish cartoon character . . . . " etc. unless there's more than one cartoon to back it up. --Amcaja 12:32, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
Unless she is specifically and consistently playing an ethnic character, calling her a Jewish character is overstating things. It would be like calling Mickey Mouse a Christian just because he made a cartoon about Christmas. In any case, technically, these are cartoon characters, not human beings. Wahkeenah 02:41, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
Precisely. —Amcaja 03:46, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Giving Betty a 'fictional Jews' tag when her alleged Jewishness is not referred to in the article is rather misleading. I am prepared to keep an open mind on the issue but could we please discuss this here before sticking the tag back in in order to avert an edit war? Thanks--Edchilvers 17:22, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

There seems to be a debate that Betty's Jewishness was confirmed by the 'Minnie the Moocher' short. The short can be seen here in it helps peeps to make up their minds http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HaZOXF83zBg--Edchilvers 17:33, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
Okay, I've made an edit to the article discussing the possibility of her Jewishness, but also refering to the only other relative of hers to appear in the shorts, her grandfather, who was not portrayed one way or another as being so--Edchilvers 17:58, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, rereading the discussion above, consensus seems to have been to not include the "Fictional Jews" category. We probably don't need your addendum about her family, either. I'll take a closer look later today. — Amcaja 22:18, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] She was also the first truly feminine cartoon character.

I think it's fair to say that she was the first truly sexual cartoon character.

Feminine suggests that she was the first cartoon character that was noticably female, as opposed to androgynous. However, even not meaning female I'm opposed to feminine used here. Plenty of older cartoons have markedly girlish qualities, even though Betty Boop was created relatively early in the history of animation.

Disney had a long series that ran from 1923-1927 called "Alice in Cartoon Land". Alice is noticably female, she is neither masculine nor androgynous. This followed by Minne mouse in 1928, who is feminine by any definition, really.

In 1915 there was a film short called Women's styles produced by the Gaumont Company ; animator, Harry S. Palmer Based on the newspaper comic strip by "Pop" Mormand, featuring a husband oppressed by his wife's obsession with high society and consumer fashion. In 1916 there were two shorts called The phable of a busted romance and The phable of the phat woman which had distinctly female characters.

Mary and Gretel in 1917 is a short that is all about the two title characters on a mystical weird journey.

The shorts come from http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/oahtml/oahome.html

Lotusduck 20:44, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

  • I have been at a loss to understand what the author of that comment is getting at. I think that he's talking in euphemisms, that what he really means is that Betty is the first "sexy" cartoon character. There is little question that Betty is sexy, but maybe he can cite a source or two that assert that she is indeed the first sexy character, after actually researching it, instead of just "assuming it's true". Wahkeenah 20:50, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
I'm sorry it's not clear what I'm talking about. The article says that "She is also the first truly feminine cartoon character." and frecklefairie removed that bit, because it isn't true. Someone reverted that edit, asking for justification in the talk page. This is that justification. She's not the first feminine cartoon character by any standard. frecklefairie poster was right, and it should go back to the way frecklefairie changed it to.
Bingo. However, this still leaves the question open, as to whether Betty is the first truly "sexy" or "sexual" cartoon character, either verifiably or at least by consensus of those who have studied the matter at some obsessive depth. :) Wahkeenah 21:26, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
I don't know whether or not Betty was the very first sexual cartoon character, although it's a simpler distinction to make than 'feminine'. There's nothing in the public domain databases that's remotely sexual, and that's stuff from before 1923. Maybe someone made a busty suggestive cartoon between 1923 and 1930, I've tried to look it up, and I've gotten nothing.
Here's where that "first feminine" bit probably comes: "In many ways, Betty was the first truly feminine animated character. Up to this point, cartoon females had essentially been males with long eyelashes, high-heeled shoes and a few dainty gestures. Ms. Boop had a decidedly female shape and, more importantly, a convincing feminine grace to her movements." It's from p. 74 of The History of Animation: Enchanted Drawings by Charles Solomon (1994). As for pre-Betty females listed above, Alice was played by a live-action little girl and doesn't count. Minnie was, as Solomon is suggesting, merely Mickey in drag. As for the other examples cited, I am unfamiliar with them. Can someone point to direct links to them rather than the main page of that site?
But assuming they disprove Betty's primacy, Betty became a star and those characters didn't. So perhaps Betty was the first truly feminine cartoon star whose design was not based on a more popular male character? I think there's something worth making of this (rather than just deleting it altogether as Frecklefairy did), but I'm unsure how best to word it. —Amcaja 22:42, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
Minnie has a feminine role in her cartoons, and a feminine voice. Betty was originally a female version of a male dog character. So the difference between her and minnie is that she's a busty female version of a male character while minnie is a flat or young version of a male character. So she's the first character with breasts and a specific girly wiggle that Solomon places above the aforementioned few dainty movements. But I prefer to use the most clear and straightforward definition of "feminine" which is that feminine means having qualities like a female. I don't think we can assume that veiwers saw Minnie as androgynous and Betty as female.
Well, she wasn't based on a male character. In her earliest form, she was (according to an interview with Natwick quoted in Solomon) "a pair of pretty girl's legs [added] to a cute little dog" with "spit curls . . . inspired by the hairdo of the popular singer Helen Kane." From the beginning, it seems, she was intended to be sexy. The paragraph after the one I quoted above further defines Solomon's "feminine" statement by describing Betty's sex appeal; perhaps that's what he really means. Wahkeenah suggested as much above.
For his part, Jerry Beck, in Hollywood Cartoons: American Animation in Its Golden Age, is less forgiving of Boop. He calls her "a travesty of compliant femininity, with a very large head (its features babylike) atop a mature woman's body". He then calls her "not at all original" but only in reference to her similarity to Helen Kane, not to other cartoons. (Don't forget to sign your comments with four ~ symbols.) —Amcaja 02:19, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
I'd almost agree with that, I don't hate Betty Boop, but it might be kind of offensive to call her more feminine than minnie mouse because she's more compliant, busty and dumb. I think it's very important to note that she was a very early cartoon in mentioning her primacy in anything. It just wasn't that diverse a genre. It's more important to talk about her as a trend setter, perhaps for all the other anatomically female cartoon characters that sex up cartoons for adult audiences like Tinkerbell, or the girl the pirates try to capture in the Pirates of the Carribean cartoon and subsequent theme park animatronics. 160.94.27.144 21:13, 29 November 2005 (UTC)Lotusduck


It's also perhaps useful to keep in mind that Minnie was a Mouse, not a human... although, technically, no 'toon is an actual human, though some are "drawn that way". Maybe (assuming it' s true) it would be best to say that she's "the first cartoon character drawn to represent a sexy woman". Or something better than that phrasing. Wahkeenah 02:26, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

That would be useful. I think the distinction could be made between her first 1930 appearance as a dog and her first appearance as a human. But while she wasn't pretty in 'Dizzy Dishes', she did have a cinched waist and large breasts. You can google for images of that, they're kind of scary- her human looking face grew a snout whenever she spoke. The Glasgow herald has an article saying she was modeled after Mae West, meaning Betty Boop was meant to be a sex symbol, being created after an Actress who at the time was best known for the Broadway play "Sex" and other similar plays. Although, perhaps I should track down the origin of the claim that betty is modeled after May West, it could have been made up by the creators during their dispute with Helen Kane on whether or not Betty was based on her.

I thought that Lotusduck's change here was pretty good and well supported on this talk page (I assume it was Lotusduck; whoever it was wasn't signed in). Wahkeenah, can you explain why you reverted it? —Amcaja 21:26, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

  • The user was talking about "sexualizing" Betty "Poop", so I figured it was vandalism. Wahkeenah 22:13, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
    • Ah. I see you're right. I'm guessing it was just a typo, but you were right to revert. Lotusduck's gone ahead and made another go of it, anyway. Thanks. --Amcaja 12:29, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Doonesbury

How is the fact that a character is named "Boopsie" in Doonsbury relevant to this article? No context is given, and if this character is named after Betty Boop, it belongs in the article on Boopsie or Doonesbury, not here. —Amcaja 03:07, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, overreacted. Disregard. What was needed was some consolidation of information, not deletion. I hope my latest edit is satisfactory. —Amcaja 03:24, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] attempted change

I have changed the article. Minnie Mouse consistently shows her panties in plane crazy and I don't think audiences saw her as masculine or androgynous. So even if she wasn't as incredibly busty or vulnerable, though exactly as squeeky and about as much of a tease, something basically had to be done. Exactly how relevant other character's naughty bits are to Betty Boop in this article, I do not know. I'm not married to it, anyhow. Lotusduck 02:55, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

It looks pretty good. I still think that it's significant that Betty Boop was the first star character who wasn't drawn to look like a male character in drag, so I may insert a bit of language later to point it up. But the current text is fine for now. --Amcaja 12:29, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Pudgy/Bimbo

Okay, I'm not disputing that the "tamed" Betty's dog was named Pudgy. But I'm curious — What happened to Bimbo in these shorts? Is he still in them? —Amcaja 20:52, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Sadly, by 1934, the Fleischers were required to cut Bimbo from the series because of the Production Code censorship laws. Since Bimbo was a dog and Betty, his girlfriend was human, it gave implications of bestiality. - Pietro Shakarian 22:21, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] betty roocks

betty boop is the best cartoon ever

she is different from regular cartoons

[edit] Adult magazine

Just removed this bit: "In a recent magazine for adults, Betty Boop was voted as the 3rd sexiest cartoon female of all time. Beating Kim Possible and Daphney from Scooby-Doo. Being beaten by Red Hot Riding Hood and Jessica Rabbit."

Rather than be so vague about it, can we state what magazine this was? We need issue, month, and page number, because this is the kind of thing that needs a reference. Also, can the author who added it try to find a way to integrate it into the flow of the prose rather than putting it in an unneeded "trivia" section? — Amcaja 01:38, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

--Well it's in a big pile of magazines underneath my brother's bed. I only read the magazine because that article was advertised on the cover. I didn't say the magazine's name nor issue because I don't want people thinking I read adult magazines constantly. But I'll look again for that magazine to find out the needed information--

[edit] Clara Bow, a possible inspiration for Betty Boop?

For the argument:

Clara Bow, in my opinion bore a great resemblance to the final appearance of Betty Boop. I have attached photos obtained from a Google search to support this.

http://web.umr.edu/~kdrowne/Clara%20Bow%2022.jpg

http://www.gildasattic.com/image28.gif

http://www.nndb.com/people/515/000065320/clara6-sized.jpg

Clara Bow and Betty Boop are both highly sexual. Clara Bow was, as far as I know, the first Cinematic Sex Symbol. I doubt that She would have been unknown to the creators of the Betty Boop character, from Max Fleischer on down. As far as I know, She created a huge impression on theatergoers of that time (the nineteen-twenties).

In 1927 Clara Bow appeared in ‘It’. Afterward She became known as the ‘It’ Girl. In this film She played a character named ‘Betty Lou’.

Against the argument:

The look of Clara Bow, Helen Kane and Betty Boop had a similar appearance. Dark hair, cut short, against a white face with eyebrows and lips penciled in to produce a high-contrast stenciled look.

The resemblance that I perceive between Clara Bow and Betty Boop may be due to a fashion among “flappers” at that time. It may be that, from 80 years distance, all Women adorned this way look alike.

If this is the case, it might be difficult for us to distinguish between a resemblance between Clara Bow and Betty Boop that was due to Clara Bow, and one that was simply the result of a style current in the age of “Flappers”

I agree with you that there's a resemblance and that it's difficult to say if it was a Betty-looks-like-Clara thing or a Betty-and-Clara-both-look-like-"flappers" thing. Feel free to add something on this to the article, provided you can find a reference to back it up per source citation policies. — Amcaja 12:57, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Again, for the argument:

Here is a YouTube video showing a collection of short moments from Clara Bow’s films: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kh1nY3YRK0g
One of the things you will notice is that, absent a soundtrack, Clara Bow ‘acted with Her eyes’. She has very large eyes and uses them to great effect by moving them about in an exaggerated fashion. Betty Boop moves Her eyes in a similar way. Since Clara Bow was the premier female movie star of the 1920’s (judging from the receipts of Her box office and the amount of fan mail She received) and Betty Boop came into existence in the early 1930’s, it doesn’t seem likely that Betty Boop’s appearance and movement are a coincidence.

Another point of view:

I can see the Clara Bow resemblance, but I wonder if other women singers are possibilities as well: I ran across a few pictures of Annette Hanshaw the other day and immediately thought of Boop. Is it possible to narrow the 'archetype' of Betty Boop down to a single singer? It is probably better to consider the many prototypes in real life...

[edit] Link relevance

Yesterday, I removed this link from the page: Betty Boop Music Video. It's a music video of a modern song set to old Betty Boop footage. The anonymous editor who added the link contacted me via email to ask why I did so, and I said that I didn't see how the music video added much to the reader's knowledge about Betty Boop. Would anyone else like to comment? Am I right that this is not justifiable under external link guidelines? — Amcaja 14:14, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Brian also removed a link to ShopAtBettyBoop that I added, citing it as linkspam. Having read the external link guidelines I agree that it does fall foul of the guidelines and I apologise for adding it. -- JonRB 15:40, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I wonder if we could re-open the debate on ShopAtBettyBoop? This site is run by a Boop enthusiast who started out selling the odd item of Betty Boop memorabilia on eBay, wrote her first website as a tribute to Betty Boop with a link to her eBay shop, then gradually grew the site into a business that is fast becoming the top Betty Boop Memorabilia site in the UK. Would it therefore not be relevant to link to it in the External Links section? It is, after all, a Betty Boop site run by a genuine enthusiast -- JonRB 13:30, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
The site violates at least one of these two External Link guidelines for sites to be avoided: "Links that are added to promote a site. See External link spamming"; "Sites that primarily exist to sell products or services." — Amcaja 13:48, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
Well, I guess I can't argue with that. :o) Shame though, as the owner really loves Betty Boop. -- JonRB 13:56, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] All films NOT b/w

I have a tape called Cinderella, and it is in color. Martal Law 05:09, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Are you sure it's not just a colorized re-release? What's the copyright date? — Amcaja 09:25, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
Poor Cinderella (not Cinderella) was the one color Betty Boop. See [4]. —Chowbok 13:07, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
Can that be placed in the article ? Martial Law 16:48, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
Yes. Go for it. —Chowbok 18:34, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] YouTube links

This article is one of thousands on Wikipedia that have a link to YouTube in it. Based on the External links policy, most of these should probably be removed. I'm putting this message here, on this talk page, to request the regular editors take a look at the link and make sure it doesn't violate policy. In short: 1. 99% of the time YouTube should not be used as a source. 2. We must not link to material that violates someones copyright. If you are not sure if the link on this article should be removed or you would like to help spread this message contact us on this page. Thanks, ---J.S (t|c) 04:15, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

In regards to point 2, most or all of the Fleischer Boop cartoons are in the public domain, and can also be downloaded from archive.org boffy_b (talk) 19:43, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] The true legend

Betty boop was, if you like, a parody of the overtly sexual Marilyn Monroe; of course, since being censored back in the thirties she had lost her cartoon fame. But as soon as those wild fifties came in she was back on the saddle once again. Seventy years after being created, Betty Boop is on most female shirts,nightgowns,even cups. Contary to popular belief she was not a disney character though. She was part of a film company, the spawn of the ever popular paramount pictures still around today. Betty deserves to get one more shot at the big time. Shove her in a cameo film role, like Who Framed Roger Rabbit, or even give her a telivison show. Millions of cartoons have come and gone. But Betty is here to stay; one whole century and she's still more well known worldwide than Tom and Jerry. So happy birthday for August 28th 1930, and kepp beautiful! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Sexyback123 (talk • contribs) 11:07, 27 January 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Legend of "nude frame"

Hmm... actually I don't believe in that story. It's possible that Special Frame has been removed before release of "Who framed Roger Rabbit" on video, but if it existed, somebody surely by would have gotten it from the film and placed it on the net or in some magazines. Also, I had heard before the same story but with Jessica Rabbit. It seems to me the mere fascination of the thought that such a drawing existed made some people claim it did. Maybe one should point out the "legendary" nature of this claim more clearly in the text, especially in the light of the Jessica Rabbit issue? Edwing 01:11, 26 February 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Betty's "flash"

I removed these two sentences from the article:

In the 1932 animated short Betty Boop's Bamboo Isle, you see a very brief flash of her vagina while she's changing. This is hardly visible as it is in black and white and partly fuzzy.

I don't know whether these statements are true or not; they may be. But they are awkardly placed and poorly worded. What, for instance does "fuzzy" refer to? The film, or Betty herself?

Crispinus211 15:48, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Whoever added that may have been thinking of Jessica Rabbit. WAVY 10 Fan (talk) 18:56, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] 5 hour sex scene & sex addiction

"she also had a 5 hour sex scene with her dog and her grampy. She is a sex addict." - just wondering if this is vandalism (it sure seems like it). Franz T. Speeling 10:16, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Racism

Why is there NOTHING about the blantant racism in betty boop? There is a cartoon floating around called "Making Stars" where Betty introduces a group known as the colorful three. They are characterized as hairless, monkey like people who are bobby-pinned together and start crying in Civil War era field hollars. Additionally, the plot of the cartoon is such that when an act starts crying, something soothing leads them offstage. In this case, watermelon comes out and the "Colorful Three" become delighted and chase it down.

Following this, the shot goes to the audience, where one "colorful" woman is holding her child, trying to soothe it. The only thing that shuts them up is a piece of watermelon she pulls out of her purse.

That is perhaps one of the most blantant racist things I have ever seen, yet theres nothing about it on the Wiki.

Feel free to start an article on that cartoon if one doesn't exist already. The material is probably inappropriate for the article on the Betty Boop character, since that's only one entry in a long series of shorts, and Betty's role in it is very minimal. — Amcaja (talk) 01:19, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Drawn Together

Should there be any mention of her role in the Comedy Central show Drawn together? Officially the character is named "Toot," but she is clearly based on Betty Boop. PabloSus86 00:50, 19 October 2007 (UTC)